Forum Post: How Many People Actually Care?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 20, 2011, 12:57 a.m. EST by sowhatareyougoingtodoaboutit
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Could somebody please do some math for me - I really don't like the subject.
What percent of the "99%" actually believes in the OWS cause?
And what percent is on the rational side, not necessarily of the "1%", but the reasonable side that advocates democracy and capitalism, not socialism.
None or very few of the so called 99. Welcome to American apathy.
Welcome to common sense.
We need a mix of all three...business needs rules, regulations, unbridled corporatism has no morality. We need democracy, people need to not only be involved in their government, but to feel they are not only involved but counted as part of that government. We need socialism, for those who no longer can earn due to age, injury or illness, we need it for education so that Americans continue to innovate and create, so that Americans CAN participate in their government.
We need all three, because if any one of these is removed we are less than we can be. We can not allow ourselves to have worker drones, with management running government while our yesterdays (elders) and tomorrows (youth) fade into nothingness.
America can not afford this.
I was at a large theme park yesterday and there were thousands of folks there to kick off Christmas. Most everyone was happy and having a good time. I when I ask friends about OWS they all say the same thing...."Are they still doing that?" Or, "What isthat all about anyway?" . I'm not kidding. I'm sure when you folks are togeather it seems great and you are united but in reality, it is just a tiny group of you.
I have yet to meet a single person, young, old, male, female, gay, straight. any race, income level, etc., that doesn't think that the OWS crowd is a bunch of fools, spoiled brats, and lazy, smelly, burnt out hippies. And that also includes people of all political views short of socialists and anarchists. Sorry, but that's the fact.
when you get pepper sprayed for doing something you think is normal, you'll come around. until then you are obviously content to harrass the people fighting for your freedoms
Stop blaming the police officers. That just reminds me of another historical scenario where poor, uneducated people picked out a scapegoat for their problems instead of attempting to reform the source.
I'm looking at you, Nazis.
Plus, OWS is not above the law.
[Removed]
The end result you are fighting for is no freedom for anyone.
Your premise is wrong.
"…the reasonable side that advocates democracy and capitalism, not socialism."
I'm absolutely for democracy and capitalism. BUT I'm also AGAINST Wall St. corruption. I think you are trying to combine apples with engine oil, then calling it a statement. Doesn't work very well.
Capitalism needs to work for the vast majority of Americans, when it doesn't work you'll need to toss it...and do something else..With populations increasing, how can Capitalism work?
Capitalism, Democracy, Socialism, Communism are just ideas..taken to extremes they all fail, because they don't take into account a finite world with finite resources.
The fact that the BANKS who are the epitome of what being Capitalist is all about and then went Socialist when it suited them should tell you all you need to know about what's really going on...
For the elite there are no rules, no ideologies, no morals, no ethics...They steal and the governments around the world are allowing it...So it's all good...for them.
So what are you proposing?
Some sort of economy like China's?
Or maybe Cuba?
We are becoming a banana republic....We need a representative republic with better checks...Here's an idea...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/72299569/A-Vision-for-a-New-Democracy
Capitalism and needs to be restrained so it serves the country that enables it.
According to Public Polling Policy:
"In the latest survey, 33 percent voiced support for Occupy Wall Street, down from 35 percent in a previous poll, while opposition to the movement climbed from 36 percent to 45 percent. Twenty-two percent were unsure."
Since the corporate takeover of our government there has been no capitalism in America. All we have are taxpayer subsidized corporate monopolies. Our citizens fight their wars on their behalf and we the taxpayers finance them. The CBO office reported that each individual taxpayer in the US bears an additional annual tax burden of $ 437.00 to make up for the revenue shortfall created by corporate tax avoidance. The same report recommended that the Federal government charge our corporations for the services rendered to them in order to reduce this expanding shortfall. The Annual budget of the US Department of Commerce that actively facilitates the outsourcing of US jobs and assists corporate America with tax haves and shelters on an annual operating budget of 10 billion dollars. Socialism is capitalism with responsibility.
I hope you remember all that you have posted when you go into that booth and vote Obama again.
Corporate takeover of our government began in the 1800s. We did not get here in 10 or 20 years. This cancer has been growing since the 1800s. Now it has metastasized.
Can you give me a specific example of how corporate takeover of the government started in the 1800s?
I can't give you examples from the 1800s and who really cares that's the past and it is gone. But there are plenty of examples to show the government is oriented more toward looking out for corporate rather than citizen interest in the present. This is wrong and we are paying for it with everything we have worked our entire lives for and it will cost our children even more in the future. The government bailing out the banks and auto manufacturers instead of bailing out the citizens who actually took the hit. Then their CEO's get millions of dollars in bonuses. The government giving tax payer money to corporations or giving them tax breaks which turn into tax burdens for the population. To bribe them to stay in this country. The government has eliminated import tariffs and other penalties that make moving corporations out of this country more appealing. We don't bribe them to stay we make them pay for bringing their products back in. The government allows corporations to get away with doing trillions of dollars of damage to the environment and then the tax payers carry the burden of the long term damage, caused by their greed.While they rake in billions of dollars in profits. This isn't a partisan problem any more it 's a government problem. I love this country and by the Constitution we are guaranteed a government by the people for the people. But because of our complacency and lack of population unity, our government has shifted to a government for corporate big money by corporate big money. And we, as United States citizens, are obligated to come together as a unified population to remind this government that it is the peoples government. Personally, I am not an Obama supporter, more like Paul.
Some wealthy land owners owned Towns and paid the salaries of the Town officials who in turn upheld "the law", and they didnt use pepper spray! The obvious Corporate interference with our Government didnt begin until late into the 1800's. Is that what you are quibbling about? Not sure what kind of proof you are looking for, but perhaps you could do a little research and reading on your own (write down the dates so you won't have to ask again)!
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. ... corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.
— U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864 (letter to Col. William F. Elkins) "
OWS Analogy;
Ants can be found anywhere because they adapt easily to changing environments, food sources and nesting sites. They've been around for over 100 million years and it's estimated there are close to 20,000 ant species.
Fire ants, named for their aggressive behavior and the burning sensation a victim feels when stung, are rapidly spreading across the United States.
Ant management requires diligent efforts and the combined use of mechanical, cultural, sanitation, and often chemical methods of control.
We Are The99% is highly symbolic but you could generalize and say that the closer you get to 99, the less empathy you'll find for the movement. We've become so conditioned to ignoring the pain and suffering on this earth.
I think the closer you get to a rational and sane person the less empathy you'll find for the stupidity and unreasonableness of the movement. Those people have become so conditioned to understand the true sources of pain and suffering on this earth, ones that include actual death, oppression of religion, speech, and press, and starvation.
I've found the fleecing of America is due to ignorance. Feel free to check out the following and look at what as changed in our basic rights; Recent cases decided by the Supreme Court - http://usgovinfo.about.com/blcourtreport.htm Explanation of the 'Patriot Act' - http://warrior69.tripod.com/id144.htm.......................... And one I forgot - Rules about Lobbying and other 'practices' in gov't... http://gab.wi.gov/node/2076
I totally love About.com - such a reliable source of information.
A business permit is not the problem. They are only a couple of bucks. Paying taxes is not the reason. It's about not getting in the way of corporate sales.
Sorry, but I wouldn't want to eat any muffin sold in stores that was made in a regular kitchen unless I knew the person. That's just gross.
And the big corporations that everyone around here seems to hate, yes, some of them might be corrupt. But they all got at least somewhere due to the honest money-making techniques available through capitalism.
What in your book are honest money making techniques that are available thru capitalism that you have idolized? The foundational principle of capitalism has been PROFIT. Nothing less nothing more. Take some time and study and inform your self on the history of this ruthless system. From its inception, profit in capitalism has been created thru the exploitation of labor and slave wages when the corporations or industries find a country that will permit them to exploit their people for a price.
So if you had a skill, say carpentry, would you do a job for 0 profit? What would you charge the customer to be fair?
The American dream once was that I could start a business in my home with very little and build it up. Now I can't without thousands and thousands of dollars. Now who is going to lend it to me? Who do these laws serve?
I started my own business with a classified ad - basements cleaned, lawns mowed and basic carpentry done. I ended up with a very nice remodeling business. It's quite easy to start a business without thousands of dollars. Then again, a couple grand is not that much money these days. That's about 2 months rent in NYC, where a lot of the OWS folks live.
This is my view on American domestic economic policy. I am a liberal Republican.
I believe that the hundreds of policies in place to save small businesses from going under are ridiculous and a waste of my money. I believe that the hundreds of policies in place regarding government help with small businesses and government bonuses should be done away with.
If this is done, federal taxes would greatly decrease, along with the cost of starting a business.
Which I would like. By the time I am old enough to pay taxes, I would like to spend most of my first paycheck for my first full time job on necessities, not the government.
But there are those who disagree. And not all of them are politicians.
You may argue with the president, but you can't argue with the majority of the people. There are some people who live in this country who would rather pay high taxes and receive many government benefits. And there are international examples that prove this tactic works; Denmark and other Scandinavian countries, for example.
So I am with you on the fact that there are a lot of stupid taxes out there that prevent you from baking your muffins, but they are there because some people want them there.
And it's probably a good thing that you have to bake your muffins in an industrial kitchen. Actually, the laws that force you to do that are there for sanitary reasons.
wealth is not created in a vacuum! You need an entire society to create wealth. Taxes should service the needs of all members of society since we are all interdependent. Just because you want to pocket more of your earnings does not relieve you of your responsibility to the social system that enabled you to succeed.
"I believe that the hundreds of policies in place to save small businesses from going under are ridiculous and a waste of my money."
Huh? Show me some of them.
I am not allowed by law to bake muffins in my kitchen with the intent to sell. I have to have an industrial kitchen costing thousands of dollars in order to sell them. I cant even bake cupcakes for my daughters class I have to buy them. Can you believe it! You have a point about the seat belt. for the record I always wear mine.
You can't bake muffins in your kitchen with the intent to sell and without a business permit because then you would be avoiding taxes.
And by avoiding taxes you would be riding the coattails of all those who are actually following the law and receiving the benefits of a legitimate business.
And you can't even bake cupcakes anyway for your daughter's class because the school won't allow it. But that's a whole other story.
is your view affected/determined by how many other people care about something? shouldn't each person's view be based on their own situation rather than if it's supported or not by others. by and large, perhaps i'm going out on a limb here, but i would guess most people if not all at some level do actually care
I think that what you're saying is the case.
So I think, therefore, that OWS should stop using the "99%" thing because that might not be accurate. OWS is assuming without hard evidence that 99% of Americans believe in and advocate for its causes and grievances.
Come on, OWS. Come up with a more realistic number.
maybe it s/b 100%, since most people if not all at some level do actually care
wrong.. the 1% is indicative of how many own 40% of the money in the economy not how many agree with ows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGPWBkFL_h0 please watch this video
But do you think that the "99%" OWS is alleging upholds their grievances is a correct number?
I understand that the "1%" is very powerful. But that is a fact. 99% of American citizens believing in OWS's demands is not a fact.
they do not hold that 99% agree. polls have been taken that show around 35% approval for ows but that will increase as time goes on.. its only been 2 month or so since inception.
I think that recent developments in the media have actually portrayed OWS as an unprofessional, illegitimate movement that will not hold out for much longer.
Oh yeah, and 35% is way less than Obama's approval rate.
That's awkward.
not when you see that this movement is only 2 month old.. if it garners over a third of america in that short of time just think by next year.. . did you watch the video? it explains how this collapse in the economy happened. become informed before you decide.
If I started a movement advocating the establishment of a bill that would give free Lamborghinis out to every American citizen, yes, I am sure I would gain a LOT of approval in a short amount of time.
In essence, that is what OWS is doing.
Tell me how OWS plans to pay for all these grievances once they overthrow the government, and then I might watch the propaganda video they put out to brainwash citizens.
if you watch the video you will see that is just what the government did. only just for a few at the top. watch the video!
How many of us Know what the Constitution says? Have you read the bill of rights and the amendments. We are not living the founding fathers vision. We have allowed self servers to strip our rights away threw fear and indifference. I should be able to CHOOSE to ware my seatbelt or not. I should have the right to bake muffins in my kitchen and sell them to my neighbors and they have the right to buy them. It may mean less muffins or bought at Walmart. (we can't have that) Police CAN NOT search or homes without a warrant but they do. We can not be pulled over without cause but we are. So glad we are waking up!
Actually, you shouldn't be able to choose to WEAR your seatbelt.
If you were driving a car (or just a passenger in the front seat) and not wearing your seatbelt, then if you got into a car crash, you would fly right out of the window, possibly causing harm to someone else.
Also, if your seatbelt was off, you were driving, taking advantage of the situation and leaning over to the backseat, you would be distracted and could possibly endanger yourself and the others in the car.
You are not allowed to make decisions that put others at risk for serious injury or death. Doing so anyway is completely selfish, anyway.
And you do have the right to bake muffins in your kitchen and sell them to your neighbors. Prove to me how you can not.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/15/main20079838.shtml
maybe this will help you understand.
Ok - yer wrong - Follow link. Senate Bill S510 says it is illegal to sell anything made, grown or fashioned at home... http://www.theworldsprophecy.com/senate-bill-s510-makes-it-illegal-to-grow-share-trade-or-sell-homegrown-food/
Damn it, I knew that bake sale I had last month was illegal.
Seriously, you want to reform the government over MUFFINS? Ok, so it's illegal. So get a freaking business permit.
It's ONE example of the ignorance we Americans practice everyday. There are many more out there... In lieu of the Patriot Act, despite what the movies and TV show, you are NOT given a phone call to your lawyer when arrested by the government. You have no rights under Homeland Security rules - citizen or not.
You can thank the Progressives for that.
Waking up is gonna be painful this time.... It gets worse. Read of the decisions the Supreme Court has made in the last few months... those should get yer blood boiling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGPWBkFL_h0
you tell me
Love the 99 views.
Tell me 'sowhatareyougonnadoaboutit', do YOU care about the subject? If you live in this country, you damned well should. If you plan on having a wife and family some day, and if you care if they are free or enslaved, you better be. The enemy is US! Ignorance, stupidity, callousness, indifference and selfishness, to name a few. Those are the emotions and attitudes of most of the present generation. If a man walks down the street, points at your house and decides, a strip mall would be more asthetic and tax freindly than your home, would you care? If a corporate executive walks by your desk and decides that he doesn't like the way you've setup your cubicle and decides that you don't fit the 'model employee' mold and fires you, would you care? If a police raid is conducted on a suspected drug dealers den, the police 'accidentally' crash down your door and in the ensuing tumult, shoot and kill your wife and beat your children bloody, would you care? These are not fancifal, nor improbable events. They happen nowadays due to the indifference of the American citizens of today. No one pays attention to new laws that are passed; if you forget to bring a driver's liscence to a voting center, due to an impending Congressman's Bill, you DON'T vote, period. If the government decides you are a terrorist threat, even if they have made a complete mistake, according to the Patriot Act, you have no more rights - they can do anything they want to you then... This is reality an it happened because of idiot and fools who foget that old adage, Freedom ain't free. If we don't start fighting, NOW, we may as well start pushing for indentured servitude. In time, slavery will be on the bill again...
"do YOU care about the subject?"
she meant MATH you kneejerking asshat. that's the subject she was referring to when you flipped out in your silly diatribe of laughable worse case scenarios.
"These are not fancifal, nor improbable events." - you should get more acquainted with reality and less acquainted with drama queenism.
"Ignorance, stupidity, callousness, indifference and selfishness" - this describes ows perfectly. it doesn't take much to see past the bullshit facade of "99%" (as if everyone but the top 1% of earners are all the same). what a ridiculous premise this whole bowel movement is based on.
Exactly. OWS is portraying the "1%" as some sort of noble class, while grouping the "99%" together as some sort of impoverished group of human beings.
How pathetic.
First of all, I'm a straight girl who doesn't want to have kids when she grows up, so I can't really have a "wife and family".
Second of all, I am a 15 year old who is up at 12:15 am arguing about politics and the validity of the OWS movement. Yeah, I kind of care. Just not about OWS.
Third of all, you are citing incidents that happen to an obscure number of American citizens. There are always kinks to the system, and I don't deny there are many drawbacks to our government.
But I don't believe this gobbledegook mess of a "movement" is going to solve anything, nor do I think it could make a positive impact if all its grievances are dealt with.
I believe that in order for change to occur, rational and reasonable steps should be taken. I chose the name 'sowhatareyougonnadoaboutit' for a reason, because I believe if you want something done, you can't leave it up to chance.
But I don't think these steps that OWS is taking are rational OR reasonable.
Therefore, I do not endorse them.
And I will continue to question them.
It is acceptable to question everything, but most people do not take that view. They shrug their shoulders and figure it's none of their business. Our country - your freedoms are being stolen right from under your nose. By the time you graduate from H.S., it will too late to effect any change. Then you will lament not having acted. Continue on in your blissful and ignorant 15yr old world.. what do you have to worry about.
On the contrary, I have a lot to worry about.
I am not free within my household to choose my own religion. My favorite cousin and favorite person in the entire world has a rare genetic disorder called Rett Syndrome. I will be leaving for college in 2 1/2 years, but as my family is part of the "1%", we probably won't qualify for financial aid, although, I am the oldest of 5 kids, so we don't have money for school. I am a varsity cross country and track runner, but due to my training, I have sustained multiple hip injuries and will be receiving an expensive, necessary, and experimental surgery three days after Christmas.
I would like all these problems, and some more trivial high school ones, solved. But at least I can admit that free college education, more special-needs care, and better health care will require an increase in taxes.
Did I mention taxes will increase? A lot?
What percent of the "99%" actually believes in the OWS cause?
Well, that's kind of an open ended question.
What does OWS believe? What are the goals?
Been here since the beginning, still haven't got an answer.
And RedJazz, sorry. The working class is already out there WORKING. OWS movement, just basing it on the OWS/NYC movement are children.
I feel that even many OWS "members" don't have a clue of what they, as a collective group, are fighting for.
It is my theory that many people are using OWS as a platform for their own separate grievances.
Which is fine, of course. I completely endorse that.
But seriously, get your act together. At least come up with some grievances that have hard evidence to back up!
I'm not even going to try and post your name :-P
Full disclosure - more aligned with Tea Party.
But what I have been trying to push, which has gone nowhere, is that TP and OWS have a similarity of goals. Money out of politics. Politicians need to be held to account...but with OWS the name has to have an (R) behind it to get them motivated.
Sorry about the confusion - I think when I said "But seriously, get your act together," you thought I was talking to you.
I meant the OWS movement.
I completely agree with your stance.
No, I think we're on the same page.
(It feels like we're parents talking in front of the kids about the upcoming vacation :-P)
Seriously though. What are they protesting? Right now, they just look like a mob. A mob that I would never employ.
Exactly.
I still can't get over the fact that they call themselves "various radicals" at the bottom of the website.
The 'various' and non-leadership serves it's purpose. When the assaults, rapes, vandalism, etc... occur OWS can refer to them as instigators/infiltrators/fringe.
If that would have happened in a usual movement, hell, even the domestic terrorists known as the tea party, they would have been stopped outright. But OWS accepts KKK, NBPP, NAMBLA, etc...
All views are welcome.
What percentage of the 99% actually agree on everything?
I bet atleast 80% of Americans have more respect for the actual American Producers than they do Wallstreet Speculators.
I produce wheat and pay my taxes. Wallstreet manipulates prices, makes money with very little positive attributes to society, then pays lower taxes? Capitalism is fine with most folks, but just as you do not want government running your life, most sane people do not want Large Corporations running theyres.
OWS? What else is there?
Maroon,
You misspoke and worded your questions poorly so that you would get predetermined answers. Idiots do this a lot when they think they are smart. Here, I will rephrase them for you so others can answer them properly.
Could somebody please do some math for me - I really don't like the subject because have difficulty with critical thought.
What percent of the "99%" actually believes in the OWS cause?
What percent of the "99%" actually believes the OWS is on the rational side?
What percent of the "99%" actually believes the OWS advocates democracy and capitalism?
What percent of the "99%" actually believes the OWS advocates socialism?
I corrected your punctuation as well. Seems literacy was something other than math you thought you would never need.
There goes my perfect 4.0 GPA because of grammatical errors made at 12:51 am. I'll be sure to inform my Honors Print Communication teacher of my error.
Meanwhile, you averted answering the questions. Do you mind answering them? Or do you want to continue your "Grammar Police" charade?
Ask a coherent question instead of offering your own opinion.
What percent of the "99%" actually believes in the OWS cause?
What percent of the "99%" actually believes the OWS is on the rational side?
What percent of the "99%" actually believes the OWS advocates democracy and capitalism?
What percent of the "99%" actually believes the OWS advocates socialism?
Go - answer my questions.
What percent of the "99%" actually believes in the OWS cause? As what? A vehicle for change? I think the OWS can be used as a vehicle to effect change in this Country so that the Citizen is once more in control of this Country's destiny and policies.
What percent of the "99%" actually believes the OWS is on the rational side? I have spoke with local and not so local members of the movement. Some are extreme in their beliefs,like you, they are irrational and have specific beliefs that nobody ca dissuade them from. Hence your continual braying about how one idiot represent everybody.
What percent of the "99%" actually believes the OWS advocates democracy and capitalism? Of the percentage I speak to all but very few, perhaps one out of every 40-50 doesn't believe in Capitalism but want a direct Democracy like the ancient Greeks had or some other weird flavor of Direct Democracy. Then most others just want to take money out of politics and could care less about Capitalism.
You asked two questions but few that I interact with want anything more than a fair shake and just want money out of politics.
What percent of the "99%" actually believes the OWS advocates socialism? I have met a single individual in all the people I have went back and forth with that espoused socialism, one. The Country is safe from socialism.
Everything I have heard supports this is about the buying of elections and legislation.
i1183 makes it so Costco could sell all types of alcohol in their stores -- 22.5 million spent on false advertising in support of the initiative. I am not arguing the merits of the initiative I am saying the ads supporting i1183 were false and made false statements in support the initiative.
This is what needs to stop and since there is no longer any truth in advertising for political speech, it being protected and all, remove these entities' money from the equation.
This is what most everybody I speak with wants. You can now find which of your questions my answer fits.
Hopefully we all care??? Right
Not enough. Everybody acknowledges that the American working class is a sleeping giant and OWS is an indication that it is only rubbing its eyes and beginning to awake to extend the metaphor.
Could you also explain to me what is so great about OWS? From what I gather, it is a movement towards socialism and communism spurned by "various radicals".
The "various radicals" thing is from the bottom of the page.
I'd suggest that you read the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City, which is available on this website and is really the only official political statement that OWS has made. Any other statements represent the point of view of individuals and not that of OWS as a whole. It contains 20 or so grievances. These either have some resonance with you or not. If they really don't then there's not really much point of contact with you, but if they do then the issue is where do we go from here.
In short; if you don't like what I say, read, learn and then prove me a fool, a liar or a buffoon. If your argument has merit, I will agree, but I will not give up the outrage that we Americans are being overrun by the top 1%. And I will not stop saying that the generation of Americans living today are morons for electing the like of Clinton, Bush and Obama into the Oval Office. They had messages that inspired us, but they had the wrong scope. We pay for it now, in security, loss of fredom and complacency.
No. At least I think not. All I'm saying is that the Declaration of the Occupation is not only the most coherent political statement of OWS, it's also the only official political statement of OWS and it has the added benefit of being short. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for me to repeat it here as it is available right at this website and short though it may be it does contain more than 20 specific grievances which are not easily condensed. So I don't know how inspirational the last few Presidents have been (not to me at all as it happens), but it's also not clear to me how relevant that is to the present discussion. You asked what is so great about OWS. Read the Declaration. It's grievances either resonate with you or they don't.
Thank you for a coherent and rational answer to my question. I found the list of grievances very helpful in understanding the OWS movement better, although I regretfully must add they furthered my belief that OWS is foolish.
One thing that OWS isn't is judgemental, though I'll admit that it is extremely difficult for me not to be judgemental of judgemental people. That said, what exactly do you think is foolish about OWS?
I don't like the fact that OWS is extremely unorganized - that to me proves that OWS is unprofessional and illegitimate.
I also disapprove of the list of grievances, especially with the implied idea that student loans should be defaulted because education is a "right" (what an Enlightenment idea...)
And lastly, I dislike the fact that many people part of the OWS "movement" are advocating for some sort of new government that would resemble...communism.
No thanks.
Also, earlier today I came across a post that was calling for a coup d'etat and violence to combat the violence the American military was causing overseas. I almost puked.
It's important not to confuse a movement with an organization. OWS is a movement, not an organization and it can't be expected to respond the way an organization can. By definition OWS is not organized. That's not what it is. It's a movement. If you are uncomfortable with that and feel the need for an organization, form your own or join one that already exists, but that's not what OWS is.
It does seem to me that taken in there totality, any rectification of all of the grievances set forth in the in the Declaration of the Occupation would necessarily imply some very fundamental restructuring of the social order, something that would go far beyond a mere set of legislative changes or even Constitutional amendments, though I hesitate to put a label on exactly what that might be. I don't think labels are particularly helpful and in most instances is counter productive. I think it's better just to say what you are for concretely (not abstractly, which is what a label is). What you end up calling whatever it is you are for concretely really doesn't matter except to the extent that it prejudices people for or against whatever it is you are actually for.
I think that this insistence on being called a "movement", rather than "organization is what's killing OWS. If they got organized, a) that might resolve the splitting of the group that is occurring currently due to different viewpoints and b) make their claims more legitimate.
OWS doen't seem like its dying to me, though the intervention of the NYPD last Tuesday night certainly put it on the ropes, though I don't see how that might have changed if the self image of OWS was that of an organization rather than a movement and in any event, from what I've seen there hasn't been much reflection at all among OWSers as to whether OWS was a movement or an organization or whether it mattered. Those analytical distinctions are my own in an effort to understand how OWS works. Both simpatizers and adversaries are just full of advice as to what OWS should or should not do and whether or not I personally agree with that advice (I often do), OWS doesn't seem very succeptable to taking it. Any advice, good or ill. In that sense it seems different from a formal organization which I think would be more open to all kinds of influences including advice and the capacity to be taken over. I'm not here suggesting that OWS can't at all under any circumstances be influenced or taken over, only that it is a lot more difficult to do so than it would be if OWS had a more formal organizational structure. I'm not aware of any splits. If anything the initiators so far as I am aware, seem as united as ever. There are some concerns about ego involvement, but considerably fewer than one finds in most organizations. By far the largest tendency in OWS is the moderates, those who would tend to view the calls for world revolution as mere hyperbole. But the irony is this is also the least well organized and most contentioous grouping in OWS. The demands working group, which is the natural habitat of these folks, can't seem to agree on any set of demands and tends to dissolve into ego battles much more quickly than do the self styled revolutionaries.
This "movement", as you insist on calling it, has no leadership.
Try as you might, you will not be able to find an example in history where a "movement", revolution, war, or country did not have at least one person in charge.
As there are no official rules in place, some radical radical (you all are already radicals) can think up some crazy grievance, and take power.
Don't say that radical radical can't, because at this point in OWS's history, the people following the "movement" will believe anything.
There is a power void right now in the OWS "movement"; I think OWS's most dangerous problem is not policemen and pepper spray, but the absence of a leader and set of demands.
The thing about history is that occasionally new things do happen, so the notion that a movement has no identifiable leaders might not be a historical impossibility. It might just be something new. Though I do think it is something of an error to characterize the movement as leaderless. It is more accurately leaderful. We are all leaders. If we yearn for a leader, the thing to do is get a mirror.
The governing bodies of the occupations are the general assemblies whose rules are fairly simple and straightforward, simple and straightforward enough so that the first thing that happens at every GA is a review of those rules so that everyone there can participate democratically.
Right now OWS is not even in its infancy. Barely two months old and really still in the womb to extend the birthing metaphor. You have to crawl before you can walk and you have to breath air before you can do either. That is the stage OWS is in it is way, way to premature to raise any demands. There will be time enough for that when we have several million people in the streets. The biggest danger for OWS is not its leaderlessness as we are all its leaders after all, but the danger of being taken over by the Democratic Party which has been the grave yard of all popular mass movements since the Populists. As for a power void, I don't see it and I don't know where it could be.
Great question. I haven't heard a solid % number but I have heard that the number of people across the nation that actually show up for this crap is an extremely small fragment of our overall populous. My guess is OWS really only receives maybe 37% of support from the American population at best.
And this is dwindling down more and more each day. People are beginning to understand just what OWS is all about. Their lack of a cogent message,their embracing of anti-American ideals,their support from anti-American groups and the disgusting tactics and behavior are turning off even the most sympathetic of minds.
Exactly. Thank you for your post.
you obviously think your shit don't stink and that you never be the victim of police brutality because you follow all the rules. one day you'll get the wrong end of the stick and you'll come around