Forum Post: How does taxing the rich help?
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 15, 2011, 1:34 p.m. EST by phila9012
(128)
from Philadelphia, PA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
when you tax the rich heavier that makes them less able to pay people in their business. Which creates less jobs.
First off, there is a difference between taxing the wealthy individual and taxing the corporations. Taxing the wealthy individual more has no effect on how much the operations costs of the company the wealthy individual owns or controls. The exception is perhaps the small business owner in which my argument above is not very relevant but it emphasize the need for a different approach to small business owners comapred to large corporations.
Secondly, the oft repeated argument of "Trickle Down economy" that the Republicans make is that Companies or wealthy individuals that are taxed less will then spend the savings in more investments in the company and spur more jobs. That is a fallacy. If the company expands, naturally the company will still employ more people because it needs to, not because it enjoys less taxes.
And what other commentators have mentioned, explain why with all the Bush era tax breaks still in effect is America still encountering greater job losses? It does not make sense if the logic is suppose to be more tax breaks, greater job creation. Hence the argument that trickle down economics is effective have failed.
the less taxes help it expand. we need to cut programs right now as opposed to raising taxes
No it doesnt. That is a politicians argument and has not one lick of facts to back it up. I ran a business for 10 years. Not ONCE did my tax rate EVER affect how many people i had working for me. The only thing that determined my number of employees was demand for my service.
Plus my g/f is an accountant , so i see through all that BS. ( I use to help her with her home work)
The rich dont use their personal income to create jobs. Companies create jobs.
they buy goods and services from other companys, that helps the economy
Yes, to some extent. But that applies to anyone with money. Lower taxes are in genral good for the economy. The rich can afford to pay relatively more taxes without affecting their spending capacity. If i make a million dollars I will gladly pay more tax than someone making 50k. Assuming my tax money goes to really constructive uses. Not for stupid wars or in the pockets of some union thugs. Taxation with representation!
see you guys all support unions but they are the biggest detriment to business
People are misled into believing unions are good out of fear. They are afraid that without unions the workers will be exploited. Unions have some use but they also are the reason incompetent people cannot be fired.
thank you at least you can agree lower taxes are good and unions are bad unlike most people on here
We need a balance. Reasonable taxes to fund defense (not offense), fire services etc. some means to make sure workers rights are protected. We dont want either side to take over the system. After all, the government is an expense. Necessary, but still an expense. It is therefore best to make it efficient as as small as possible without hurting its functions.
yep the government is not very effciant with there money, so we should try to minimize it as much as possible, but it is still important to society, most people in here want more government, the government is very wasteful with money thats why this movement is bad because they want less economic freedom
If lower taxes created jobs....then where are they...where have they been for the last 10 years?
how do high taxes create jobs? they don't
Lower taxes have been creating jobs, the businesses dont just come out and say that since the tax rate decreased 2% we opened a factory in Omaha Nebraska
Question for you. If you had a successful company you were the head of and you were earning a million + a year, what incentive do you have to spend that earning on a new venture that might lose you millions?
why do they have to expand? He worked his way to his title. what incentive do you have to get a job and make more money when the government just provides you with a job and money?
you're an asshole... he'd spend it on more workers and more buildings and shit that'd make him more money or maybe less. it's a risk.
Nope, he would spend the companies money on it. You see, the money for a business to expand doesn't come out of the CEO's pocket, it comes out of the companies profit.
We've been giving them more and more for decades. Where is the money? Where are the jobs?
In 2004, before the 2nd round of tax cuts for the rich, $16.538 x 1012 - $5.600 x 1012 = $10.94 trillion in excess of $5M each owned by top 0.999% of American Households. It's worse today.
http://www.agkaiser.org/posts-2011/Where-Is-the-Money.pdf http://www.agkaiser.org/endgame/HowDoesThatWork.pdf
Make me king for a day and I can solve the whole economic mess in the US. 1. Tax the Right wingers 100%, When they move out, we will replace them with the tens of millions of illegal aliens they claim are hurting the economy at 10% of their salary.
How about tax the liberals because they want to keep adding to the deficit because they want the government to have more control
What I don't get is how companies expect to have their roads paved educated employees, protection from police without paying taxes. We are paying the lowest tax rate in 50 years. States are lowering corporate tax rates to appeal to companies, but they are making major cuts to education and health services. Reagan would have never have sacrificed welfare of the society in exchange for unreasonable tax cuts.This is why our global ranking is dwindling.
It is dwindling because Americans took on too much personal debt and dont want to pay it back
Hard not to take on additional debt when your investments disappear with the likes of Enron, GM, Delphi, .......when will THEY pay back what they owe??
I am not talking about that I was more talking about people buying houses they can't afford or always buying new cars when they are $50,000 in debt. I do feel sorry for those in your situation.
We need to increase the capital gains tax-not the income tax-the income tax affects small businesses. Capital gains tax is earned income form stocks.
bullshit
nice educated response
I'm sorry, but your statement is plain and simple bullshit! Your statement is uneducated and warrants an uneducated response! Their isn't a business on this planet that will not be able to pay people if they are taxed more money or if tax loopholes are closed and you know that. There isn't an economist in this solar system that would validate your statement and you know that. Exxon mobil paid zero federal taxes last year thanks to tax loopholes alone, so you mean to tell me that if those loopholes are closed Exxon won't be able to pay its people or expand its business? HP paid its fired CEO a $50 million severance after he sexually harassed employees, yet they have been deferring their federal tax payment since 2005! So you want HP to give CEO's big money payments when they play grab ass, but you don't want them to have to pay their fair share of taxes to contribute to fixing our infrastructure which they use, or educate our children? Stop the bullshit, and you won't look like such an uneducated ass yourself!
all of rich people pay a higher percent of their income than the average American
No they don't, I pay much lower rates than any of my employees do! Listen we can try to scam the people if we want my friend but the jig is up. The information super highway has outed the system. It is absolutely embarrassing how little in taxes I paid in 2010 and my sales were up that year over 20%.
yep but you can just be lying to me just to prove your point, which is no better than polititions
I would love to show you my tax returns, because I doubt you make anything close to what I make and it would absolutely anger you so much that you would join the movement!
to be honest I don't care what you make, If I work hard enough to be able to be in the situation you are in then, at least if I get I would be able to enjoy it. You earned the right to your money, so I would not care what your tax returns
No. It doesn't. They make such obscene profits at the expense of regular people that they can afford to give some of it back.
Tax the corporations and the billionaires and leave the working class and poor alone.
How do you know this did you look at the books of a big business? If regular people don't like it then they can start their own business.
It's obvious they do because things are so overpriced.
do owners spend money, I think they do they have to buy things too, that helps the economy.
i don't believe it does. consider the following
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy
getting rid of subsidies is what Obama is proposing and republicans are opposing by calling a tax increase because the subsidies are not paid in cash but thrue tax deductions. so much so that GE paid $0 in taxes for 2010
did it help them keep jobs? yes
ok. so you are under the impression that if taxes go up that employers will lay off and forego the production needed to make a profit therefore foregoe profits. because that is the full chain of events being suggested. you cannot just tell the story up to the lay offs then stop. that is omitting. and no, in reality the inverse is not reality either. they are not simply going to hire because they have more money, or open another location. they only do these thing relative to demand. anything else would be absurd. they can say it's because whatever, it's up to you as a free thinking individual to stay in the bounds of reality and to be sure what you accept as information is within those bounds.
you guys want jobs but you want to tax the crap out of every entity that offers jobs that really makes sense
not so much. see by being dead beat employers and not paying the true cost of labor and receiving subsidies they have pushed a large portion of their responsibilities onto the gov. that is why we are having problems. we need to end subsidies that give corporations an edge over small business and require employers to pay a living wage. a floating min wage pegged to inflation and cost, then do away with workers comp because the mandate requires everyone to have insurance, then relieve employers of covering healthcare and instead add this to the cost portion of the wage assessment. that makes individuals 100% responsible for themselves, employers pay only the wage and no other employee cost should be leveled on them. tada, everyone accept the elderly is off the gov cheese including wallstreet.
ps, cost means paying your own way, taxes and healthcare for one adult+one child
then go get a degree and make an investment in your self
http://richardkentgates.com you guys are so full of yourselves
Innovation creates jobs. A culture and environment that provides a strong foundation for innovation create jobs.
I don't have the stats, but my feeling is that "some", not all, wealthy that are in a position to create jobs, keep far more money for themselves than they use for job creation and real re-investment back into society.
Very few people with wealth keep it in cash or a hard commodity like gold. Most invest it in bonds or stocks which ultimately helps companies to grow and that helps the middle class. You want rich people to feel comfortable investing their wealth. Sure, they will make even more money so others will ride in their coattails.
Of course. And some of those investments are put to good use helping innovators start up companies! Which creates jobs. But without the innovations, would there be anything of real value to invest in? Serious question, because I'm not sure! Maybe infrastructure or education which benefits all of society? And leads to more innovations?
Investors look for innovators and vice versa. They need each other and feed off of each other.
Agree. It's symbiotic. But I think investors have lots of investment choices that may not have anything to do with job creation. Which is why I think of innovation as the #1 job creator in society ultimately.
when they keep it for themselves they still spend it on things which comes from people like restaurants, goods, made by people so they still are helping the economy. They have every right to save money, just like you do too.
of course companies have the right to save money, but saving money and refusal to pay taxes are two very different things. Paying lawyers millions of dollars to find glitches in our tax code is theft, not saving.
the lawyers are making money which is turned taxed and then they spend it on goods and services
please stop, you are clearly reaching!
no you're clearly being irrational
phila, I replied above to Mooks. I think it applies to your point too!
thats why you're a moron because my post was there before yours and you think I replied to you.
be thankful
50% of the world lives on $2 a day or less. People in Africa are starving. In some countries like England they spend tax payer money on a King and Queen that did nothing to earn their title. Mexicans die trying to cross our border just to work hard and make less than 90% of the Americans. People have family members dying of cancer, and you consider taking money from the rich instead of being thankful for how good the US really is.
You have the worst manners.
Nowhere did I say I think we should take money from the rich. If you read carefully, I simply suggest that in some cases, wealth is not used as productively as it could be.
my response wasnt to your comment it was just telling how good we have it. so nice response once again
How does taxing the poor help? When you tax the poor, that makes them less able to pay the rich, who have taken away jobs, homes, 401K's, llivlihood skills to grow food, make their own clothing, educate their children properly, pay their bills and on and on and on. So, take the lesser of the two evils.... taxes go to running this country, creating jobs that keep it going, don't they...or is that a lie too??? Besides, how come there is such a big deficit and so many budget cuts... Someone ain't payin their fair share but is still reaping all the benefits and rewards.. Tell ya what have the rich supplement the Federal, state and local budget deficits and then they can get a tax write off for their donations....
You mean jobs in China. Take a look at taxation in the 1950's, the most prosperous time in American history. A millionaire in 1955 payed 85 percent. The America we all know and love, with roads, schools, parks, a 40 hour work week and vacations, was all created through what right-wing propagandists label as "socialism".
You need to grasp that socialism isn't taking your stuff away: It's keeping millionaires and billionaires in check so they don't take everyone else's stuff away. Right now there is 84 TRILLION dollars which has been REMOVED from our economy; it has been squirreled away in off-shore bank account, hidden through tax loopholes, and invested in corporations which do NOT create jobs here, but which use their power (money) to buy our politicians, and allow them to use cheap labor in China to make goods Americans used to make. When a Monopoly game runs out of money because one player has all the properties, you either end the game, or rob the bank of another Monopoly game (the equivalent of printing more money). Printing more money is no solution, it only devalues all the money and the game can't go on for long.
84 trillion dollars is many times the "debt". Either these people put their money back in the game, or the game is over. It's that simple.
Capice?
Well said
how about cutting taxes equally to everyone and saving money
cutting taxes equally to everyone and saving money is a great idea, but how do we cut zero down any further? there are about 20 large coporate entities that literally pay nothing, nada, zero, zilch, not a single fake copper penny into our system, we can't cut their taxes any further!
it means change tax rates from what they are now to still bringing in the same amount with an equal tax rate across the board some people's taxes will increase, while others will decrease to get to an equal point
Contrary to what many in the public seem to think, the corporate conglomerate GE did pay taxes in 2010. It reported $2.7 billion in cash tax payments during the year, and on its income statement lists a provision for income taxes of $1.05 billion. Considering GE's pretax income of $14.2 billion, that makes for a tax rate of just 7.4%. that is laughable, 7.4% taxes!!!! That is lower than this other idiots 9-9-9 plan! One of the 20 corporate giants with a lowest rates was AT&T at -6.4% -- but that was because MaBell won a tax settlement with the IRS that reduced its tax liability by $8.3 billion.
Sure, raising taxes on these companies will create less jobs, you'd have to be dumb, deaf, and blind to believe what you just posted. Everyone on the planet has an iPhone, I think AT&T will be just fine sir!
Your reasoning is deductive but just because a conclusion is valid based on the premises doesn't make the conclusion true.
You as the press and many congressmen say taxing the rich hurts job creation. While it may be counter intuitive the opposite is true. If the wealthy have a small tax burden that means they keep more of their personal wealth. In the realm of the small business (which is the least common denominator in our economy) business income and personal income are not differentiated between.
So if they can keep more of their profits without taxation they will. However if taxes are high then they keep less of their money. One way around paying these high taxes is to reinvest in the business new capital (new employees, new equipment). So you see a low tax burden on the wealthy actual hurts investment in capital (i.e. job creation).
Besides that we have had these tax breaks for almost a decade yet have lost millions of jobs. There seems to be a disconnect in this theory and the real world.
This "job creator" philosophy I believe is the last remnant of trickle down economics. I also believe that to really believe that this is true Congress must turn a blind eye to the facts.
Are we talking about taxing companies or are we talking about taxing individuals?
Rich individuals, whether CEOs or hedge fund managers, should pay more in taxes because they are the people best able to afford it. Taxing the income that they take home does not in any way affect their companies' bottom line or those companies' ability to hire. So if you argue that rich people paying more taxes means less jobs, what jobs are you talking about? Less diamond cutters, yacht builders, $10,000 rug salesman? Give me a break.
When you tax the rich more, it has no effect on their lifestyles or their ability to buy the vast majority of the things they want. When you tax the middle class and the poor, it cuts into their ability to buy food, pay rent, get healthcare, and buy the things that they want. I think it is obvious that the net negative effect of higher taxes on job creation in America is much higher if you raise taxes on the middle class than it is when you raise taxes on the rich, and this money has got to come from somewhere.
So don't raise taxes on the job creators, that is the middle class in America.
do people work at yacht factories? yes they do. You could have been rich had you worked hard in school, choose the right field to go into or had a brilliant idea for a business
Yes people work at yacht factories, and my point is that they will still have their jobs at yacht factories after rich people pay more in taxes, because the rich will still have the ability to buy the things that they want.
My other point is that there are A LOT fewer people employed making such luxury goods than there are people employed making things and providing services for ordinary people. Also, when ordinary people have their taxes raised, it has a strong negative effect on their ability to spend money, unlike the rich. Thus the effect of raising taxes on the rich will be much less harmful to the economy and job creation than raising taxes on others.
the rich people still spend thier money on everything so thier money is still helping the economy