Forum Post: How do we increase economic equality between classes?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 2, 2011, 11:33 p.m. EST by AlternativeSynergy
(224)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
When the 99% protest for increased economic equality, in my opinion that boils down to one thing: More purchasing power in the hands of the lower and middle class. With more money in their hands, more goods and services would obviously need to be produced to accommodate the increased demand.
What would be the best way to accomplish these goals in the free market system?
Money is what keeps people unequal. We won't have equality until the monetary system is gone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9sWqYcVTqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms3eaPZpYFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDJ18m6KUW4
Work very hard and effectively to fix the education system so that the average person will have the skills demanded by today's technological economy. The largest un-reported / poorly-understood cause of economic inequality is the gap in skills between the rich and poor. In a free market system, employees pay $1 / hr. for a set amount of skills. Those with more skills earn more money relative to those with less skills. Another way to think about it is if we can supply more skills to the labor market, the value of those skills will come down. Say, for the sake of argument, 10 guys know how to design websites. These fellas will be sitting pretty because they can pretty much name their price; people that want websites will have to pay them all of the economic value of having a website. If, however, 1 Million guys know how to design websites, the original 10 have no more bargaining power and will be able to charge only as much the other 990K people competing for the business.
1) bailouts need to stop. It takes money from our pockets and gives to the greedy. 2) audit the fed. That's where they are laundering the money the stole from us. 3) flat percentage tax (maybe not Cain's 9%) without all the loopholes on the forms.
4) caps to credit card and other loan interest rates. (jesus if they just did away with the credit card's ability to raise your interest rate at will). 5) back a candidate who is fiscally conservative but socially liberal. They exist. 6) Enforce the immigration laws that exist so more jobs are available to legal citizens. 7) pass a law that for a business corporation to be legal in the USA it must produce 51% of its product and have 51% of its workforce IN the USA.
Good list.
Seems to me a logical solution would be to fight for a reasonable cap on how much more the people at the top of a company can make than the people at the bottom of the company. That way if the top 1% wanted to earn more money they would have to raise the incomes of those at the bottom of their company (foreign or domestic) to realize their own increases, rather than doing what they do now which is lower the base pay as low as possible to increase their own returns. Right now the average CEO makes 1000 times as much as their lowest paid worker. If the government limited that ratio to even 750 times, I guarantee you everyone would see a 25% increase in pay overnight. No limit on how much the top earners can make, they just have to bring their people along with them in order to get there.
I think the natural law of free market capitalism is that a company gains larger market share by keeping labor costs as low as possible. Trouble with that is that it becomes a race to the bottom, with the labor force seeing contraction of their purchasing power exerted by the natural downward force of the free market. We used to deal with this problem with unions demanding resistance to the pressure of the free market system on wages, but with the decline of unions we must find a new way to deal with this contraction of purchasing power.
Stop being robbed through inflation and taxes. Then the mids and lows will have more cash to spend.
To stop being robbed through inflation many people in the lower classes would need a wage increase, which would cause more inflation. It's a catch-22.
No, the cost of their goods increasing needs to stop. That is a symptom of inflation.
Regulate Wall Street and eliminate the finance casino.
It's not whats wrong with the system but the system itself...???
Even if we were all millionaires the inflation will break our backs and if that didn't kill us then dollar by dollar our funds would funnel off to the manufactures/share holders who are replacing us with software and machines, so we work for lower wages with bad working conditions just to pay the bills and eventually the owners of these machines will no longer need workers but ex-workers still need food and shelter... Instead of this new age corporation where the labours of the 99% fatten the pockets of the 1%, why don't we all profit equally seeing that we all contribute towards the company, just the same as WW I & II we all had to work together for our own survival and unfortunately not all of us survived, hell some corporations make killing good for business. Don't get me wrong, war sickens me something horribly. We use to work together within our communities, this is what a corporation use to be, like modern day collective efforts and when we recognise we are taking more out of the environment than whats sustainable our community will automatically develop wiser in how and what we manufacture otherwise we will literally be robbing any future/prosperity from our children. If one community becomes prosperous then other communities will probably follow suit or vice verse could go so far as to suggest nations may follow another nations example because no one wants to go homeless and hungry. Again don't get me wrong because I'm not advocating communism or nationalist fascism like whats erupting in Europe. Unfortunately modern day personal greed/copyrite laws will prevent this from working and as long as We The 99% work for the 1% we will either screw ourselves or our children... Who wrote that saying about loving your neighbour as you would have your neighbours love you?
Within a free market system? Transitioning into a resource based economic system
Right.
As the dollar decreased in value so did your pay check, A hundred dollars before the decrease is probably about 95 now. I suggest raise in minimum wage and a flat tax for corporations based on total earning no loop holes.
As the dollar decreased in value so did your pay check, A hundred dollars before the decrease is probably about 95 now. I suggest raise in minimum wage and a flat tax for corporations based on total earning no loop holes.
We are long overdue for an increase in the minimum wage, it should be $10 by now.
Why should the minimum wage be $10? Last time I checked, a person had to go through and generally pay for a lot of training to qualify for that kind of pay. Not only that but raising the minimum wage causes those who have devoted their lives to one job to essentially make less when the inflation catches up with the minimum wage increase.
No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level—I mean the wages of a decent living. — Franklin Roosevelt (urging passage of minimum wage legislation)
Of course FDR didn't have to deal with globalization.
Of course that's absolutely true. To get more money needs jobs. That means globalization must be stopped dead in its tracks. No legislation is needed. The 13th amendment abolished slavery. All slave made crap must be prohibited just like heroin.
Force the multinationals to get all their supplies made by American workers. They will then finance a massive build up of new modern factories. The economy would blast off.
We should at least negotiate in our trade agreements some kind of standards for minimum wages and working conditions for our trading partners. The higher costs of labor overseas will level the playing field.
Wipe the slate clean for all Americans Credit Scores, start over to recoup all that has been taken. Then create a new criteria for the entire system altogether. This goes right along with the criminality of the banking system. While it is necessary for citizens to be forthright and responsible in their aims to make good on all borrowed money, it is also necessary to take into consideration that no matter how hard we do or try, life throws curve balls at everyone at some point. Leniency provisions should be part and parcel to all Americans. Hardships should be handled with compassion and further assistance, no greed in order to keep the flow flowing.
At the very least we need to have a serious discussion about usury interest rates. It's crazy to have to pay three times the purchase price in final interest plus principle when you buy a house.
The only way I can see that happen is if we move back toward an industrial society, instead of the services based society we are now. Unfortunately that would also require us to use current technology and resources and grow toward greener pastures as time goes by. Too much money is being invested in green technologies that will likely never replace anything nor provide a significant advantage over current technology. Those investments could be put to creating a new industrial revolution much greener than the previous with current technology. There has to be a compromise somewhere, we are not close to the perfect renewable energy source everyone is waiting for.
I agree, a more industrial based society would be a good way to lower the massive trade deficit gap which is bleeding wealth from this country. We will eventually run into the automation problem however, where automation will make the number of employees needed to create all the goods we can consume as a nation less and less of the population. Service jobs would be the only alternative to an increasingly automated industrial sector.
There is no way to force this. The only thing you can do is provide the opportunity.
My policy change would be changing the unemployment system to a Self Employment Assistance Program, or SEAP. Right now, the SEAP is an opt in program for states. Only 7 states have done it, but it works much better than regular unemployment.
http://thepurpletruth.blogspot.com/2011/11/are-occupy-wall-street-protesters-bums.html
That sounds like a great program, I hope more states adopt it. I was thinking of a program of government wage subsidies to promote rehiring in lieu of unemployment benefits. I outlined it here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/full-employment-with-a-national-jobs-bank/
The problem is massive inequality. For prosperity to endure it needs to be shared. Mass production, demands mass consumption, but people can’t afford to consume if the wealth an economy generates is concentrated at the top. In consequence, as in a poker game, where the chips are concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, the other people can stay in the game only by borrowing. When their credit runs out, the game stops.
Here's a short article that describes what we did in the past to increase economic equality and how inequality caused the Great Depression:
http://toomuchonline.org/americas-most-egalitarian-banker/
Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
First we need to get rid of those tax breaks. Rich people benefit from taxes (no matter what they say), roads are used by them a lot more for the transport of products, they are the most in need of protection from theft, their banks get bailed out by the government, a workforce gets educated well enough to work for them etc.
That would be accomplished best by changing the pay for play system we now have. Why do you think they hire all these lobbyists in the first place, to get a return on their investment in the lobbyist in the form of a tax break or preferential regulatory treatment.
I'll just add a couple of obvious ways to increase the income of the lower/middle class:
Redistribution of wealth does not work, as has been proven. In fact i contend that the ease with with people have been able to get government aid for all sorts of things, has lead to the diminished work ethic.
We must stick to the age old proverb. Give a man a fish.....
But teach a man to fish and you feed him for life. Exactly. The focus should be on increased access to education for the lower classes. But who is going to pay for this extra access? It would be nice to get education costs down.
Ever see the documentary Waiting for Superman? Mostly teachers and other educators. To a person they almost all blamed either the government or the unions for all the problems. Do away with the system. Break the unions, go to all charter schools, give vouchers, etc. Break the bureaucracy of the system and we would have better education.
How about more automation in education and online courses to get costs down? Is it necessary for everybody to go to a university when you can learn much of what is taught there at home on your computer with internet access?
Absolutely acceptable. The only reason it is not more prevalent is because the universities are all about the money and block all attempts by online universities to give degrees.
That's ridiculous and needs to be changed. Teachers unions are a big source of the Democratic party's funding, this would be another reason for campaign/lobbying reform to eliminate this special interest treatment.
All we can do is inform, protest, and think about every penny we spend. I'm obsessed with it. Try to spend more of your money down or across and less up. Small business shares a greater portion of it's profits with the little guy while big business tends to concentrate income at the top.
Be obsessive. Think in detail about every penny you spend. Support the little guy as much as possible and the big guy as little as possible.
We can't win by little tiny spits in the ocean. That is a self destructive plan. Only nominating candidates who are committed to protect American jobs will change this. All the crap about it will never happen, we can't stop globalization is because we are in a trance from propaganda.
If we all refuse to snap out of the propaganda trance, we're fucking ourselves. I have no intention of fucking myself.
I'm not buying the OWS plan to commit suicide sitting in the park.
I'm under no illusions. There won't be any recovery for the lower majority at all. Not one of us will live to see it. It's only going to get worse. But I will not stand by and let this Earth shattering greed go unchecked. My proposals are not intended to save the world. That would take consensus of the majority (that won't happen) or an act of God (that won't happen either). I'm under no illusions. There will be no recovery. Not one of us will live to see it. But I will not stand by and do nothing. My words, my actions, my proposals, my predictions. They are not intended to save the world or reverse the highest concentration of wealth in world history. They are only intended to make whatever dent possible. To make others understand.
Greed kills. It will be our downfall.
It does appear that we can agree on some heavy issues. Our realistic goals might even overlap slightly. But you have your strategy. I have mine.
OWS is filled with mentally defective people.
Having remarks from delusional, paranoid, and hallucinating people during most of my communications with these people on their forums and 6 visits to the park, I can't ignore the evidence. Sitting in the park for 6 weeks was a symptom I chose to ignore. I can't ignore that any longer.
At first I thought they were only uninformed. I assumed a rational discussion would bear fruit. Now I can't ignore my diagnosis was dead wrong. They are out of it.
Next.
I'm very glad you posed the question. I've been writing my blog since 2006 and it focuses on your topic. http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Supporting the little guy will never remedy container ships filled with slave made crap. Its a spit in the ocean.
Nominating or endorsing any number of political candidates will never remedy the highest concentration of wealth in world history. It also won't prevent further corruption. It's like plucking a but hair from an elephant and hoping that it won't grow back.
You just bought the propaganda. I don't want to insult you but you are in the media propaganda trance. The timing now is perfect. OWS needs to wake up. It can't happen when you refuse to try and just sit in the park with signs.
read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Media trance? Me? Far from it.
I've also been on this cause for a long time (August of '05'). I predicted this socio-economic crisis in writing and on air.
I despise every single network and virtually every news outlet worldwide. I hate nearly every public figure. I can't enjoy a single TV show because the sneaky brainwash plots and commercial plugs written right into the scripts jump out at me like a cat with a lit cigarette up his ass.
You have no idea what I've been going through for the last 6 years. I'm nobodies puppet. Not yours either.
You're uninformed and illogical.
First OWS would need to nominate candidates or at least endorse them. I will be the Green Party candidate in CT 4th district.
read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
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Of course that's absolutely true. To get more money needs jobs. That means globalization must be stopped dead in its tracks. No legislation is needed. The 13th amendment abolished slavery. All slave made crap must be prohibited just like heroin.
Force the multinationals to get all their supplies made by American workers. They will then finance a massive build up of new modern factories. The economy would blast off.
Of course that's absolutely true. To get more money needs jobs. That means globalization must be stopped dead in its tracks. No legislation is needed. The 13th amendment abolished slavery. All slave made crap must be prohibited just like heroin.
Force the multinationals to get all their supplies made by American workers. They will then finance a massive build up of new modern factories. The economy would blast off. http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Go to my blog and read my posts. I'm not going to paste my entire blog on this forum. http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Will you debate me there? Are comments allowed?
I would rather debate you in front of the OWS protest.
I'm dumb with computers and its not set up for a forum on my blog. I've written plenty and a debate needs to be oral. You can call me 203-612-1987.
No way. No way in hell am I going to call any phone number posted here and give away mine in the process (you could claim harassment and have it traced). There are people out there who want my mouth shut permanently. No way. No way in hell will I call any number posted here.
You're paranoid too.
Since you have a mental defect, don't bother me at all.
I wasn't implying that you want my mouth shut permanently. But I won't take any chances.
You want to know why those people want my mouth shut permanently? I'll tell you.
In August of '05', I called a popular radio show and predicted a severe worldwide depression. I also predicted that it would drag on for many years and eventually lead to worldwide chaos. That same year, I started making short term predictions with regard to the domestic economy and global economy. Most of which came true.
I have attributed virtually every prediction to a record high concentration of wealth.
In other words, I blame the rich. Not exclusively but primarily.
In one year, I posted more than 20,000 entries all over the world predicting the "worst economic and cultural crisis of all time".
Again, blaming the richest most powerful people in the world. I have made no exceptions. I blame all of them.
There are people out there who want my mouth shut permanently.
I will not dial any number posted here.
OWS is filled with mentally defective people.
Having remarks from delusional, paranoid, and hallucinating people during most of my communications with these people on their forums and 6 visits to the park, I can't ignore the evidence. Sitting in the park for 6 weeks was a symptom I chose to ignore. I can't ignore that any longer.
At first I thought they were only uninformed. I assumed a rational discussion would bear fruit. Now I can't ignore my diagnosis was dead wrong. They are out of it.
Next.
You topped it off, paranoid. OWS is futile
Good point. I will do more thinking about this as well. Have already been buying more from small businesses lately.
I agree it would be nice to get back to the pre-Walmart days. But we are a nation of obsessed bargain-hunters, it is difficult to see how that would happen, though I agree with the buy American and support local business ideal.
What you just wrote proves my point. 99.9999% of Americans are in a trance. Nothing will change until you consider this obsession is a mental defect.
First candidates must be nominated who will stop all slave made trade imports. No legislation is needed. The 13th amendment abolished slavery. It doesn't say to have the slaves in China where Americans can pretend they don't exist. I will be the Green candidate in the CT 4th district. Next to the BRIBES issue -- the jobs/slavery issue is # 2 for me.
read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
That's fantastic, I'm talking to a real candidate. One of the biggest problems I think we face is the sole use of loans to expand our money supply through fractional-reserve lending. Do you think we should change that, it seems like it creates a lot of booms, bubbles and busts.
Correct. First we need to fire Bernanke. That means electing a 3rd party President. I have written lots about Bernanke if you go to my blog -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
If OWS keeps buying the propaganda BS that we can't elect a 3rd party, big time, right now == we're screwed. That's the only remedy. Its like a football team that can't run the ball but won't try passing it.
There are no Walmarts in Germany. And there is no ethanol. The problem is that we have far too diverse a population to impart a unity or united front.
And the influx of illegals is a contributing factor...
This not an insult. The problem is that you believe the propaganda which means you and 99.999% of Americans are in a trance.
If OWS people continue to believe we can't elect a 3rd party to change this shit, you are self destructive. -- read more http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
I am an entirely independent thinker who does my own research. We are not capable of the unity you suggest.
Everybody on earth claims they are an independent thinker. No one ever claims they are irrational, stupid, or in a trance.
You're dead wrong.
No, I am absolutely right.
Of course you are. You have no ego. You can't ever admit any mistake. You're too arrogant.
I think you're looking at the world thru a very narrow lens.
Your premise that economic equality indicates a healthy economy is incorrect. The important factor is the average purchasing power. Is doesn't matter if a few people are ultra rich, as long as the other people have enough money to live. A capitalist system provides this, as long as checks are in place to redistribute some of the money to the poor. Canada is a better model than US.
However, if true economic equality is your goal, you are able to increase it tomorrow. You simply need to find another person with whom you agree to share all your wealth. Obviously, It will be easier to find someone poorer than you. You could push this idea a bit further by calling out people who agree to redistribute their wealth. When the group is formed, each member finds someone poorer then him thus doubling the groups size. Everyone then proceeds to share their wealth with their partners. This will instantly increase the economic equality within the country.
Another idea is to develop a subsystem inside the system. This is nothing new, and is commonly known as communes. Find a bunch of people who want to start one, then find a location. Everyone can share their wealth and live happily long after. Note: Usually, it's important to have more females than males in a commune since males like to have a small harem. This is something to think about as you pick your members.
Read, "The Conscience of a Liberal," by Paul Krugman.
I started reading it a while back but it got put on the back burner for some reason. Thanks for reminding me, I'm going to have to finish it. Krugman is the ultimate anti-supply-sider.
Educate people in multiple skills, economics, and self empowerment thinking.
Yes that appears to me to be the best way, also we will need to step up advances in technology to keep up with the increased demand for goods and services.