Forum Post: How can one agree with OWS?
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 23, 2011, 12:30 a.m. EST by academic
(6)
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I'm not quite sure how one is expected to agree with the OWS movement, as I've seen the following as representative of this group:
- Protest Hydraulic Fracturing
- Oppose the stock market in general
- PETA showed up to protest eating meat
- For the reintroduction of Glass-Steagall
So thus far, we are anti-Fracking, anti-Stocks, pro-Vegetatian.. With one actual goal (reintroduction of Glass-Steagall)..
You guys are angry, and protesting, but it's as if you have taken up a stance against Wall Street and when asked what is wrong the response is "WE WON'T TELL YOU". You have no demands, you have no message. And it isn't Wall Street you are actually after, it's the legislature and the regulators. So when asked what your demands are, your response is "WE ARE OUR DEMANDS". So the people who could make change, when they ask you what change to make, hears nothing but white noise.
Furthermore, when someone (like me) looks to see what this movement is about, and tries to determine if the movement should be supported or looked at with scorn... That person hears only white noise. You should join our occupation because... [a million contradictory issues erupt].
How can one join your movement when each time you are asked what you stand for, you refuse to answer?
Simply saying you want democracy isn't enough -- you're having democracy by talking amongst yourselves and annoying the general populace? Why not raise hell with Congress? Is it due to the borderline treasonous cries for "revolution" plastered everywhere?
I'm not trying to troll you, and I'm sure similar sentiment has been posted here before.. How can one support a movement that cannot define itself without the use of vagaries like "our demands are us"?
I can see you aren't a troll but the ga decides what to protest on any given day. If you want a voice. Go to the protest it works like america is supposed to. The goal is to unite the American people to fight against corruption on wall st. How u do that is up to u. But do sumthing!! Quit voting for dumb or dumber. Get active voice your opinion. Unless you think America is a perfectly running machine
OWS has no leaders and no specific demands because to name specific things on paper would be to admit something awful. That anger doesn't translate into solutions.
Grievances are a dime a dozen. Solutions are the only thing that matter. OWS is long on complaints and short on fixes. Everyone has a valid grudge against our flawed system, but when you get down to it, most of the alternatives are much, much worse. Everyone knows that, which is why nobody talks about it. If there was a clear way ahead, someone would say it, banners would go up, people would rally around them, leaders would arise, and things would take shape. Sadly, there isn't a clear way ahead, which is why the OWS organizers insist on keeping the movement faceless and vague.
Until they face this issue, the OWS troops on the ground will continue to spin their wheels in the mud until either someone stops and thinks through the problems in more depth than bumper sticker platitudes, or the gas runs out.
You simply can't have a movement without a destination. Standing against something isn't a substitute for having concrete goals. Without leaders and direction, OWS will eventually turn on itself.
I support OWS wholeheartedly, but I feel your frustration. demonspawn down here says that OWS wants an end to corporate influence on government. Cool. But I have to say, if that is seriously your primary message, it is NOT coming through. And part of the reason is these lists of like 15 things you say are wrong. To be clear, you're right - all of those things are wrong. But you need to drop everything and just demand full public financing of elections and an end to ALL monetary influence on representatives. Period. Unless you have that, you can't get ANYTHING else. And if you do get anything, it's going to be crumbs from the table of the elite, meant to silence dissent - more unemployment, more food stamps, lip service by Obama. And this will satisfy some people, which will reduce the influence of the movement. So you need to get serious, start hammering this demand home NOW while you still have attention (it's waning, in case you didn't notice).
I was an activist for 15 years before I became a stay at home mom, and I'm really upset by the direction this is all taking. It's becoming just like "protest soup" and the public is rapidly losing interest. I know a lot of people are like, "fuck the public - we'll just do it our way!" and all of that. But what we need - what we have never been able to muster - is critical mass. If we don't reach critical mass, where the public itself begins calling for what you are calling for - we will fail.
I know y'all don't want leaders, but I encourage you to at LEAST get a respected representative. Someone trusted - maybe Cornell West? SOMEONE. Because you may not want (or need) leaders, but the masses don't understand that. You need an articulate, recognized, intelligent adult who is capable of going on mainstream media and demanding public financing of elections. I know a lot of people will tell me to fuck off, but this is what you need to do. If you don't do something, you are going to lose. Take it from someone who has experienced this over and over and over. You've gotta get that critical mass going.
I think you put it more eloquently than I did with the "protest soup" comment. We must protest ALL THE THINGS! wait.. We have to protest ALL the things???
I don't know if every movement needs a single leader, but I do think that every movement at least needs a declared direction
Right - and how are you going to get that if you insist on making decisions by consensus with a bunch of strangers in a park? I lived in an intentional community for 4 years that made decisions by consensus, and even with a group of people I knew well and who weren't particularly crazy, it was still impossible at least 25% of the time to reach consensus. But you want to have consensus with a bunch of strangers (some of which might be totally nuts) in a park on something as important as the focus of a national movement? Occupy Atlanta ended up disallowing John Lewis (the civil rights hero) to speak at an assembly because some yahoos wouldn't give their consent. Ridiculous. And then they acted as if this was great, because it was proof of their democracy. No - this is proof that you are allowing morons and nutcases and 19 year old kids to dictate to you because you have now committed to "consensus" - which is a great idea that works in small groups. It is NOT a system to use in a large group or for a national movement. You need a council, preferably of elders. But you can't get that because you'd have to have consensus for it to happen. So now the whole thing is stuck and spinning its wheels. It's really upsetting, because the obvious path is the simple demand for public financing of elections and a ban on all outside money in politics. Something most of the country could probably support. But the chance is slipping away. And as long as the elite keep some modicum of people employed in the rat race, there won't be the social unrest that you would need to overthrow them any other way. Ah well.
Hmm...you list four "demands" and amazingly not one of them has anything to do with the core demand of OWS. How many times must it be repeated before people like you understand? We want an end to the massive influence corporations have on the political system through lobbyists and campaign contributions. We want a government that actually represents the 99% of the population that gives them their power. Now is that too hard to understand?
Not hard at all to understand, and you could've done without the attitude. Perhaps if that info were on the front page and not a story about a "die-in" over natural gas wells would make it seem more like that's the main push.
And your idea isn't difficult to understand, but how this protest is effecting that change is quite a bit more murky.
I am puzzled by the seemingly directionless, generalized nature of this protest. It's like protesting weeds in the yard. "My yard has weeds. There are weeds in my yard. MY G-DAMNED YARD HAS WEEDS!" All protest but no extirpation [No suggestion of how to pull weeds, how to spray weeds, or how to get a goat to eat weeds from the yard. I began this http://occupywallst.org/forum/ideas-for-effecting-change/ thread on account of the aforementioned. Also, this movement needs to learn from Ghandi. I don't see a top down solution from federal or state governments happening given that Republicans and Democrats are almost totally beholden to corporations and the plutocrats. A bottom up movement dominated by individual actions multiplied by 200,000,000, could however cause a paradigm shift.
This may explain some things. A vide from an outside observer looking in, like you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9zkQcLi4Yo
I get the feeling you think I'm a shill for... somebody. That's amusing. You made me giggle. And no, it didn't explain a darn thing.
I don't think you're a shill, though the board had been bombarded by a flood of them lately.
Note what the guy in the vid said about getting it. You either can get it, or you can't. The media certainly ain't getting it, that's why they keep making all those silly assumptions and asking for demands.
I see. I still think it'd have been helpful if he would have actually been able to articulate what "it" is in the process..
I get the regressive taxation structure we have, and I get that both parities have wealthy interests that pay the majority to fight amongst themselves.. And the corrupt nature of lobbyists and campaign contributions is horrible.
But that's all pretty well known. I have to admit I'm distrustful of any protestor, especially ones that want people to not question them, just join. You either get it or not, and I won't debate you, just join or not -- but I'll not define what I'm really fighting for...
That might be why I come off as a little "shilly" -- the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend...
"I get the regressive taxation structure we have, and I get that both parities have wealthy interests that pay the majority to fight amongst themselves.. And the corrupt nature of lobbyists and campaign contributions is horrible."
Give the man applause! Whether you realize it or not, you get it. That's why 99% and Occupy exists. If things weren't so fucked up as you so accurately described, and spiraling out of control, we sure as hell wouldn't be camping in parks and yelling at bankers. That shit isn't fun.
Is anyone really arguing AGAINST those points, though? I was under the impression those issues were a known quantity -- the issue is what is to be DONE about that?
Does OWS think a certain collection of policies need to be implemented? Or is OWS advocating a Che Guevara-style Communist Revolution?
Aside from the trolls, quite a few people I've spoken to at work / around town seem to get hints of the latter.. People (and I include myself) can't trust a group when we don't know what their motives are.
Thanks for the conversation, though.. I'm really surprised I got actual thought rather than just some flames. Cheers!
Che Guevara-style Communist Revolution? WTF? Oh crap no! A few of us own guns. I own a couple of hunting rifles and a target gun. But this a nonviolent protest. All the violence has been from cops, not us. The guns are left at home. And no communism, marxism, nazi-ism, or any of that crap.
All we want, if you must have a demand, is the money out of politics, for our voice to be heard in DC, no more outsourcing of jobs, and accountability of the crooked banks and corps that have screwed us over. We want our bailout too, or at least our tax money that went into those bailouts returned.
All we want, if you must have a demand, is the money out of politics, for our voice to be heard in DC, no more outsourcing of jobs, and accountability of the crooked banks and corps that have screwed us over. We want our bailout too, or at least our tax money that went into those bailouts returned.
^^^ THAT I can get behind.
glass ceiling sounds like something congress pulled out
so we can believe they are doing something for OWS
when it needs to put into law now
and not be used as some bobby prize to satisfied the owes movement
.
the money's already gambled away on the stock market
glass ceiling could have stopped that
but the imbalance of money has already occurred
They have needs, and in some ways they are their needs. We are all there really. I agree with you, but please, allow me to make a semantical point.
academic wrote: I've seen the following as representative of this group:
Those are issues not a group. Issues of a group. So the issues represent a group of very poorly organized and concieved protestors that are quite serious about being heard. Mostly because the issues are real needs.-
Redundant problems and issues are not a solution, and the solution is to restore constitutional government. Seriously, anything else is sedition, insurrection or unlawful rebellion.-----
Using Article 5 of the constitution to defend the constitution may be something corporately submerged conservatives may want to pretend they are afraid of, but they will not be able to produce a single reason to hold that fear.-
An Article 5 convention IS a lawful and peaceful rebellion to the status quo of power in the material world.