Forum Post: Help yourselves, help others: education
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 22, 2011, 8:49 p.m. EST by hyarborough
(121)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Unfortunately, the quality of education in the U.S. is not what it could or should be IMO. I find that a conventional, formal education has been more stifling than instructive for me. As long as accreditation isn't required, I've found self study to be much more effective as far as gaining knowledge. I've found that consultation w/ "experts" has mostly resulted in drawing wrong conclusions, and/or extending the length of time required to find an acceptable solution. I think in at least some instances the problem is that there isn't a wide enough knowledge base gained for a large number of professionals. Their training is just too narrow. I've often found "sideways thinking" worked better and faster in finding a practical solution to a problem.
Today I read/listened to an explanation titled "3 reasons we shouldn't bail out student borrowers". http://reason.com/archives/2011/11/18/3-reasons-we-shouldnt-bail-out-student-l The first two reasons were obviously specious.
"These loans are voluntary" The loans are not entirely voluntary. The skills are needed in order to compete in the job market, and if the individual doesn't have the means to pay out of pocket, a loan or grant is a necessity.
"The amounts being borrowed are hardly overwhelming" Pure hokum. Overwhelming is completely dependent on the individuals circumstances. No job, no money to pay the loan. Pure and simple.
"Bailouts are never a good idea" You often fail when you use the word "never". Again a matter of circumstances. Bailouts that accomplish their goals are almost always a good idea.
This statement didn't feel right either. "But given that the that college grads have unemployment rates that are less than half the national average and that the average salary offer for graduating seniors is almost $50,000, the loan amount isn’t so bad either."
While the statement is factual, as far as it goes, it ignores the fact that most college graduates end up working in non-related fields, and 10 years after graduation up to 70% end up working in non-related jobs earning much less than the quoted $50,000.
Most of his arguments are best case scenarios, which are true, but not generally so.
Education has become an industry which seems to be more concerned w/ producing income than imparting knowledge. I can't help but be reminded of a young graduate electronic engineer that asked me "now what does a diode do again?", when a diode is the basis of ALL electronics. I find too often that this is the quality of education that college imparts.
A college education no doubt helps in finding a job, but is no longer a guarantee of success.
Not sure what the deal is. I tried to edit to correct a word, and all 3 reasons didn't show when I saved the correction. However, when I tried to edit it again, all three were there.
... Education has become an industry which seems to be more concerned w/ producing income than imparting knowledge. ... That's right! Truth!
I want you to go to this post. I want you to speak truth to power!. Say it once, say it twice. Say it loud. Say it proud. I'm down with the KTC. The Revolution starts here!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8&feature=related
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
The Revolution starts here! No one can silence the Revolution!
I totally disagree with ever forgiving student debt. Students need to think long and hard prior to choosing what school they will attend, what degree they obtain and how much loan they can afford to pay back. First of all, they can lessen their loan by choosing a public, in-state school. They can work part-time or full time, and they can choose a degree that has a good outlook and decent salary. Students need to take responsibility for the choices they make. I don't believe the country should just forgive the debt of someone, for instance, decided to pursue their passion and major in history or philosophy, and then is faced with limited job prospects and low salary. By college, students are more than capable and intelligent enough to research their career path. Also take the student who chooses to take out massive loans to get a private liberal arts education or attend an out of state school just because they wanted to (and not because their degree will ever produce enough income to repay their debt). Why should their debt be forgiven?
I agree that people should be responsible for their choices, but I also think that you can't squeeze blood from a stone. People make mistakes, and a lot make mistakes based on poor advice from others. I thought school counselors were a joke. I think you have to look at any event as a unique event... That it's a mistake to pass blanket judgement on anything. One exception being if there's a time critical element.
I disagree that anyone becomes more intelligent w/ age, just hopefully more experienced, and that experience doesn't necessarily make one more adept at making a correct decision. Look at our government officials for instance.
I think that Obamas plan to offer financing backed by the government at lower interest rates could be coupled w/ voluntary public service offering enough to make a living wage, but at lower than normal rate of pay.
The University System is a dinosaur (whose time has come) that even I at the age of 16 realized amidst the environment of the early 1980's (when double digit interest rates were the norm for home loans)-a summer school geometry course was easily aced within about a month allowing me to start off high school with trigonometry reinforcing my skepticism for the slowness of school... Enrolled already in college prep courses geared towards landing me within the UC system and seeing the environment around me, holding my first job realizing that it would be very difficult for me to pull off a 'hat trick' to pay for a dorm or other living quarters and basic needs I lucked into working for a real estate broker after school and obtained a real estate license a little more than a year out of high school (I was licensed at age 19). Soon I realized that a 4 or 8 year degree was not always necessary to achieve a decent livelihood.
Now my experience and conclusions are confirmed further because there are free universities on line (granted, certain disciplines DO require 'formal' education ie:medical, dental, scientific etc...) but others really do not.
Here then for those who are not in pursuit of what I would term 'harder knowledge' applicable to gainful employment and certain fields requiring 'hands on training' and most likely licensure are some free online university resources:
http://freeuniversitysf.org/
http://education-portal.com/articles/Universities_with_the_Best_Free_Online_Courses.html
http://www.openculture.com/freeonlinecourses
http://best-online-mba.net/free-online-mba/
Fully agree. I think that school 50 years ago should have been much better. A formal classroom education isn't needed to gain the knowledge to do a good job. You can do much better on your own. However, w/o the certification, it's hard to get the opportunity to demonstrate ability.
I have found this to be true in my work life. There was a time when we hired teachers to teach and expected them to be the frontrunners in education. Today we hire teachers, put them into on-the-job training positions and hope for the best.
I finished a BBA degree but never expected to be guaranteed a job in that field when I graduated, thus a good broad education allowed me to find a job, move into the work force and make a success using what I had learned in many different fields over my lifetime (business, education (elementary-secondary-college), small business and educational administration, planting a garden, property investment and management, building construction and repair, raising a family, and about 10 others.
If you want an education with a guaranteed job at the end - go to a trade school-and good luck with that one too.
I am not sure what the educational level of the respondents on these posts is - but the dearth of knowledge in areas such as economics, law (Constitutional and otherwise), history,government, group dynamics, "getting along with others", English composition and application, reasoning, etc etc etc seems to me to be very lacking regardless of how well versed each person is in their "field".
It has been a long time ago, but I remember how my education progressed. As a freshman, I could talk about any subject brought up. I only realized that I had gained an education when I learned to keep my mouth shut and continue to learn.
And in conclusion, if you are a college or university student and have not held a significant job while in school, don't even assume that you are educated to the point where you have any more than below average qualifications for any job you think you should have.
I agree that the concept of a well rounded education is laudable and is worthwhile pursuing. In schools that still teach along those lines, I think the teachers need to be skilled enough to also teach why that's relevant. I think the best teachers can impart knowledge whether the students want to learn or not..with exceptions of course.
You're entirely correct that a four year degree only gets you the basics. IMO even a graduate degree is only a step up. I think "real life" experience gives you a wider range and deeper knowledge.
Good post, cogent facts, kudos to you.
Thanks, I don't think we can even put a "price" on the value of "real life" experiences and common sense when we apply it to any area of life.
I wanted to be a teacher when I finished college and took a teaching position. What I learned during college in a job I had supervising the noon playground period at a Catholic School, taught me as much about working with children, individually and as a group, as any college class I enrolled in, not that both were not valuable, but in my opinion, both should have been REQUIRED for graduation.
I agree, but often academia does seem to live in the proverbial ivory tower. I remember when my oldest was about to enter kindergarten the NEA decided to stop teaching phonics in favor of using sight words. We, of course, taught here using phonics plus sight words, and she was reading at a third grade level by the time she started school. A few years later the NEA realized their mistake and started using phonics again.
I went through that time with my children and our school staff too. All because it was the latest fad to come along and it justified some higher ups' job as an expert.
We can be so dumb if we have such a limited or NO perspective of the whole picture, how life works, etc.
A hook properly placed in a lot of people's nose and unfortunately away they go. And the beneficiaries, more than any other entity were the publishing companies.
There has to be a balance in everything that we look at, everything that we do, and how we interpret life itself.
More than anything, I have been posting on here to see what, for the most part, our younger generation thinks, knows, how they approach life, what they consider to be knowledge, how they deal with other people, whether thy evidence the maturity expected of someone in their position, whether they can communicate in a coherent manner, etc.
It has been a real eye-opener for me. I have a 15 year old grandson who is in his first year of college, so I am very concerned about what he will face and how I can help him understand his world. Being on these forums, will help me more than any sociology class ever could. Though from what I have seen, it isn't going to be easy to explain all of this.
In my gut I feel an affinity to the working class. I was disenchanted enough w/ academics that I had no intention of attending college, and only did so for a year because I received a full scholarship, which was in itself a mistake as my performance in school was only mediocre, but I test well. Initially, I attended class only to take tests, then I decided that I could get by w/ just taking finals. I skipped classes so often that I couldn't remember the names of my professors, and missed taking finals also. I've been lucky enough to still end up making more than I need, but that was a different time, and I could get away w/ "floating" the way I did. This was a time when it was still possible to become a field engineer and make a decent living w/o having a degree.
While in my gut I agree w/ the OWS movement, I also understand how much of the current situation is the result of behavior all of us across the board are guilty of. It gripes me that the system allows exploitation of those who need the most help. Given that this is a democratic republic, we have the power to effect change, but seem to be unwilling to obtain the knowledge necessary to vote intelligently, or to reject the fallacies we're often sold. I don't know if this is delusion or willful ignorance.
I've had some interesting thoughtful "conversations" since joining this forum, but I'm struck by the lack of focus, and some of the really bad ideas also.
I have some friends who are more "tea-partiers". They are good people, IMO, and we share a lot of ideas regarding doing for oneself, but differ on root causes for our problems. They blame big government, I blame ourselves. We ARE the government. I think we've allowed greed, avarice, a lack of empathy and good old fashioned laziness to change the way we used to live.
My oldest loved school, and was on the fast track to earn a PHD, but decided to stop after earning her masters. She says she chose sociology mainly because she didn't understand people. I'm extremely proud of the fact that she's helping people, and appears to be stable economically. My middle kid is pretty unfocused, and my youngest is more like me in that he prefers working w/ his hands. They were all raised the same, and we made every effort to ensure that they had the "tools" to make a living, but differences in basic personality resulted in widely varying degrees of success.
All had access to free college educations, but none fully took advantage of it. There wasn't a lot I could realistically say about it since I threw away two chances of getting a degree for free myself. I felt that they were all smart individuals, and that I had the right to offer advice, but they had the right to make their own lives. I've always given them the advice to draw their own conclusions based on independent research rather than blindly accepting what they read or see in the media.
I have real concerns for my grand daughter. Things currently are much harder than they were when I was a kid. I believe my kids will be OK, but things seem to be deteriorating at a faster rate than I expected, and I don't see a good practical solution. Education seems to be the best option, but it's certainly no guarantee of success.
You made me smile and brought a tear to my eye at the same time. We have two children, both have their master's degree in education. My son is very devoted to teaching. I have encouraged him to go into Educational Administration for broader impact on more children - but he is very committed to the child and has seen the way that politics has slowly trickled down to the school office.
I faced this same situation when I was in Educational Administration and had as one of my goals to stop the politics at the Superintendent's Office and to not let it become the controlling factor in the local school. Today he teaches over 100 students in advanced classes that support the classroom instruction and takes them a step beyond. He is also very committed to children outside the classroom, in sports, school fairs, and helping children in a homeless shelter see that they can rise above that situation if they want.
Our daughter has taught off and on since graduation, and has been a full-time mother and home school teacher. She has a little help, since my wife taught children and later, taught teachers for over 42 years.
Like you, I am concerned about the world that my grandchildren are going into. I have a gdaughter working at a Houston's Restaurant and doing well. A gson is a shift manager at a large truck stop in a nearby town. He would well have gone on to college, but is in a holding pattern as he really got both burned and burned out in high school. My 15 year old gson is in his first year of college full time. He likes it but is facing challenges from teachers that he perceives as pushing their own agendas more than actually teaching. I have two more gsons coming up and one is all about learning and advanced education, the other has a drum set with 14 drums and does a pretty good job of setting his own beat. My final two are still up in the air. My youngest gdaughter likes learning but has a real practical side to her. My youngest gson is just himself, loves life and will probably be very successful in everyone's eye whatever he does.
And if I paint a rosy picture of my family. I must tell you that my oldest gson, by marriage of my son to his mother, but none the less my gson is in rehab right now for addiction, not living with his girlfriend and their little girl. Sad to see, but we will stand behind him until he can get it all together again.
Also like you, I went to the University right out of high school but found out that I really liked to work more than I liked to go to school. I passed as an average student, but I found that I could learn a lot more from the professor when I cleaned or painted his house that I could in the classroom. It was just in my head that if I was going to learn something worthwhile, I had to be able to put it into practice in the real world, and real soon. Waiting four years was just an eternity for me.
But I have never quit learning, both in advanced studies and on the job.
I probably lean more towards the "tea-party" type but am not overwhelmed by them. I agree that there is enough blame to go around and I think that we do need to look at ourselves before pointing a finger at someone or something else. If we are not on the right track, we sure are not going to influence anyone else to get on it. This concerns me as I visit the various forums here. What has happened to our understanding of history, economics, government, geography and other people. If it is really all about ME and my ill thought out ideas - I question whether we can stop the overall deterioration of the world we live in.
I agree with you regarding the future and there are times that I see the same picture for my family, however, I think this may rekindle a realization that maybe the family IS more important that any school, any protest movement, any corporation of anything else out there. If we get nothing of these time other than stronger families, we will have lived in the most success renewal this country has seen.
May you have a most blessed Thanksgiving - I think we can and do agree on what we have to be thankful for.
Thank you.
Yeah, I get a bit "girly" myself at times. I'm especially gratified when I speak w/ people w/ attitudes I deem positive. I've become a bit of a cynic in my old age, but still hope for the best.
I've always leaned towards the hard sciences, and history, economics, government, and sociology have not been preferential areas of study for me except peripherally. However, I'm surprised that I've learned more from "osmosis" than a lot of people I've spoken w/. I perceive a lot of "slop" in those areas. That there's a lot of interpretation inherent in those fields. I do appreciate the apparent trend in history to paint a clearer, unbiased view. I also appreciate the value of study in those areas.
I, like you, believe that family is the most important, and I believe that we should in general behave as an extended family. I think at the core people are basically good and moral, or at least want to be. I've been fortunate enough to have not met any psychopaths yet. :)
I wish you and yours the best, and enjoyed our discourse.