Forum Post: Help me win an argument with my girlfriend
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 17, 2011, 8:18 a.m. EST by IDontKnowWhy
(5)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
So, I am one of the many who up until a few days ago was only vaguely aware that there was any kind of crisis going on. I knew only that there were problems, but I wasn't overly concerned. However, in the recent weeks I have been captivated by this--eagerly devouring information at every opportunity--and I am appalled at how much has been done and hidden or worse, not hidden and just not talked about by the media.
The problem came when I tried to convey the message to my, still very skeptical girlfriend. She asks "What's the point? What do these people think they will accomplish?" I hear this everywhere. To me the most basic of goals has already been met: to spread awareness and shake people awake from their complacent little lives. Beyond that, there seem to be several goals ranging from ideas more mild than redistribution of wealth to ideas much more extreme than the complete overhaul of the American Government. It is in the ambiguity of objectives that I find myself perplexed and unable to defend a compelling argument.
I guess what I'm asking is this: How much is TOO much? Is someone from the richest 2nd percent immune from scrutiny? I think, obviously not, but where DO we draw the line?
Also, what do the majority feel would be adequate ambitions, politically speaking? Is the goal to eliminate big business from the current political system or to reestablish the political system utterly?
And finally, and, at least in terms of me gaining any ground on my argument, most importantly: How is marching on Wall Street, with no real semblance of a unified voice, going to accomplish anything more than informing a stagnant population of its government's misdeeds?
(Please, do not infer hostility from that or any of these questions. I am generally in agreement with most of your ideals it seems, and I honestly just want to know more. Thank you!)
We may be able to do the the absolute impossible and convert this world to a global spiritual and economic utopia through our efforts with Occupy Wall Street but this request:
"Help me win an argument with my girlfriend"
is totally beyond the physical possibilities in any of the multitude of quantum universes that we may find ourselves in at any particular time.
Gotta love your optimism though!
Haha, excellent
The 99% are referred to that way because there's such a massive gap between them and the top 1%. It's not like there's this blurry line to navigate.
The goal is actually not just awareness, but the actual instillation of a new public expectation of standards that will show in an obvious way to be leading to definite change.
(arrived at from my own similar dealings with friends)
Ok so what are we really hoping for from these protests? Do we want the government we have now to take it from here? Do you really think we can trust them with that? I mean they have a lot at stake here too, they make A LOT of money from big business.
We're hoping to feel that an obvious, drastic, positive, and undeniable change is happening. Focusing on the specifics of how that happens isn't necessarily prudent or even necessarily beneficial. This protest started without detailed demands and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't continue that way. It will continue until changes are put in motion that make us certain that things are getting better.
When you go to the doctor cause your arm hurts, you don't necessarily have a specific demand for what he should do to cure it, but you shouldn't leave him alone til you're satisfied it's getting better.
(I'm aware the doctor analogy only goes so far here but hopefully you get the idea)
We don't hurt our arm and fall to the ground, pouting until someone else heals it either. We seek out the person most qualified to help us. It is our unfortunate situation that it is our doctor that hurt us in the first place. How can we then go to him and say fix this arm you just broke?
(sorry to abuse the doctor analogy despite the disclaimer, it seemed too fitting not to.)
I anticipated that. I don't think you're here for the reason you claim. Disregarding your abuse of the analogy, this is a frank disparagement of the movement.
Whether you choose to call it pouting or shouting or protesting or whatever, it is noise and attention that is getting less and less easy for people, including those in power, to ignore. We can, and are, influencing a change, whether those currently in power make the change or they are forced to allow new people to do it.
I admit pouting was a poor word choice, and one that I didn't mean to represent OWS despite the metaphor's implication.
I'm simply playing devils advocate in preparation for what she will say using the argument she has already presented to me. I genuinely do not have an answer to that question. And I do appreciate the assistance.
Some people have a tough time with new ideas. Protests throughout history have included specific demands. Those who are slaves to their own preconceptions either automatically dismiss this one outright merely because it doesn't follow suit, or genuinely lack the ability to wrap their brains around the new concept.
This protest doesn't have a specific demand, but lack of a specific demand doesn't logically demerit the tool of protest. Instead of demanding a particular change, we demand they start changing until we're satisfied that things are getting better.
Labeling the protest as whining or the like doesn't actually speak to this particular protest, but to protest in general. Whether the demand is "we want [x] to be president or else we won't stop" or "make an effort to change things for the better cause we won't stop until they are," you either believe in the method of protest or you don't.
Stick to your message. There are truths from both sides; you only have to make sure your arguments are more true. Do not go on the defensive. Expose the holes in her arguments. Refrain from ad hominem attacks.
Best advice you will ever receive. You cannot win an argument with your girlfriend.
A word of personnel advice: Quit trying to win an argument with your girlfriend for that is impossible. She is always right, and you are always wrong. That is a simple fact of life. But many times in life you will win when you loose. Forget the argument and agree with her. Then suggest having a nice weekend in NYC or somewhere occupying the nearest occupied city. Come out and you together may see and feel something which is beyond words which neither of you may have seen or felt before.
I commend you for trying to research what you admit u were only aware of recently..its ok....we all wake up at different paces and times...but half the voices on this forum are biased ignorant angry or bigoted so be careful what you ingest it takes a long time to learn all this stuff ....maybe 1 year of constant study...start by watching democracy now online every weekday that will keep you up on current national and global affairs
"How much is TOO much? Is someone from the richest 2nd percent immune from scrutiny? I think, obviously not, but where DO we draw the line?" - For this question i give you this quote "Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it. " - John Adams.
Until we are satisfied with our protection, safety, prosperity and happiness. Or in short when we put things back the way they are suppose to be according to the constitution.
"Is the goal to eliminate big business from the current political system" - that is one common/popular goal.
"reestablish the political system utterly" - In addition to the above we need to regain control of politicians so they work for us like they are suppose too. Then we really need to have some way the people can keep a check on these politicians to make sure they are doing as they are told. Politicians are just servants of the people nothing more. They seem to of forgotten this.
"How is marching on Wall Street, with no real semblance of a unified voice, going to accomplish anything more than informing a stagnant population of its government's misdeeds" - We use a direct democracy system in OWS. It best represents the people. But it also a slow process. The wall street protest started out more symbolic than anything. Banks got bailed out with taxpayers money but forclosed in mass on taxpayers homes and then added a bunch of fees to accounts as another insult. We should of let them all fail and rebuilt the banking system from the ground up.
The movement has grown out of that. And we are accomplishing a lot we are just doing it outside the box so it doesnt seem like it. Much of the action takes place in Liberty Park. Work groups are kind of building a direct democratic govt from scratch. The govt will not replace our govt but merely allow us to speak as one voice while representing everyone involved in the movement.
This movement will take time to accomplish anything great. I would say on the scale of a 90 days plus from the start of the movement before you really seeing it make an impact. Otherwise it is just going to keep growing and organizing for now.
Re-establish the political system with a social contract in line with the great thinkers like Locke, Smith, Jefferson, Patrick Henry etc. Return to a government rooted in classical liberalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_liberal
Do you REALLY believe you can win an argument with your girlfriend...? Really?
Time will tell, so lets see. A great leader may emerge from the crowd and unite all.
I hear you. I would say this. The common theme is that the money needs to stay out of politics, and the banking system as it is needs a major overhaul. If people do not rise up and say enough is enough, this direction we are headed will get worse and worse. Humanity is at stake. It is not really about the money. We have a broken system that won't fix with a band-aid anymore.
agree, but isnt this an issue with government taking money...and allowing their independence to be purchased??? If you are a teacher and I try to buy a grade....isnt it your responsibility to say NO I HAVE ETHICS THAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY??? WHY ARE WE NOW BLAMING THE KIDS (BUSINESS)...In the next election i assume we will all vote for politicians tha accept no funding from business....umm....well....there go all the candidates (both demicrat and republican). All this aggression is completely misplaced.....be upset with your lawmakers for being able to be bribed and making rules that can be taken advantage of. There will always be people in every class, in every profession that try to take advantage of any system...it needs to be the lawmakers that are held to a higher standard as this is why they are elected!
I agree they need to be held to a higher standard, but laws need to be passed to make it illegal to take money from any corporate interest.
so you agree that the movement should be occupy capital hill...and not wallstreet?
Both would be better. How about Florida in the winter. They elected a crook for governor here!!!
Rising up is great! It has its purpose as has been demonstrated time and time again. I'm just saying, besides making a few people say, holy cow there are a lot more pissed off people than I thought, how can we hope for change to come from gathering with muddled voices?
The Occupy movements came about because of the greed and corruption of the elite. It seemed to have started off as remove the greed and Corruption from Washington. How ever, it's now mostly young collage kids who don't have a job, are loaded with debt and don't know what to do. They come up with some good ideas, bad ideas and fantasy land ideas. They are just trying to figure this all out. Sadly the message is slowly being lost and if they keep fighting over ways to change the entire world, they will be corralled in and the movement hijacked. They will be nothing more then the corporate slaves for the people they are resisting and fighting back against.
As for helping you win the argument with your girl friend... You can never win an argument with your girlfriend. The best you can is nod your head and agree. It will save you a lot of head aches. =)
This movement will grow organically and I believe a true leader or leaders will emerge, not in the political sense. This is just my perception of things. It is building quickly and can not be stopped.Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB7PwcC9qzw&feature=player_embedded#!. Watch this with your girlfriend. Hope this helps.
Occupy Wall Street is a people-powered movement that began on September 17, 2011 in Liberty Square in Manhattan’s Financial District, and has spread to over 100 cities in the United States and actions in over 1,500 cities globally. #OWS is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations. The movement is inspired by popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and aims to expose how the richest 1% of people are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future.