Forum Post: Have you ever heard about the venus project or zeitgeist movement?
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 20, 2011, 1:30 p.m. EST by Juanitho182
(30)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I think this is a good solution to all of our problems, and if you like it, please support it too and spread the message.
The Venus Project:
part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwcd01i-S1o part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnad4AtGDAc&feature=related part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3IFXazsM8&feature=related part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhrQIlh1xuo&feature=related
Zeitgeist Movies:
Zeitgeist: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8883910961351786332
Zeitgeist Addendum: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912
Zeitgeist Moving Forward: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aLGFZDiwRs
I think is a very good plan, and if we accomplish, everything is gonna be better. hope you can watch all the videos and do some research.
P.S. If you like or agree with this, please spread the message.
Here's a recent site compiled by a TZM/TVP supporter as am i at age 63. Yes i'm a boomer and support this global movement 100%. The money system is dying. Let it die, it's over. We're moving from the industrial age to the technological age and u kids w/technology = what is it you cannot do. You don't need what's become the 'crutches' anymore. Each new age is difficult, like a new birth but think of how far we've come from using a stone as technology. When we begin to use technology wisely instead of using it for war, polluting the earth, gimmicks, etc then, of course, we can achieve a Resource Based Economy. I'm 63 trying to give you guys a 'pep talk'?? "It will never happen" has been uttered many times before. If we thought that way, we'd still be in caves. Do you realize your generation gets to graduate to the next level and can FINALLY say "take this job and SHOVE IT" We can actually manifest the lyrics of John Lennon's "Imagine" GO FOR IT!! YOU KIDS ROCK!! Love & solidarity - Mamma D "^_^" from Ohio, USA
PS - A New Beginning is the start of a beginning's end. Let's make RBE that New Beginning. http://www.unitinghumans.com/
A few points...
Just to clarify, the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project are not exactly the same thing. TZM is a movement designed to create awareness of the failings of current social structures. TVP is the plan of a redesigned society based on a resource economy.
While it is true TVP is not new (it has been in development for about the last 50 years), it has NOT been tried before.
TVP does not make the claim that money by itself (the paper and the silver) make people greedy. Rather it is the combination of social institutions (capitalism, nationalism, religion etc..) that provide people of a monetary system with an incentive to put profits ahead of people. It is the position of TZM and TVP that use of a monetary system in past ages of scarcity served as a way of rationing goods and services. But now in the 21st century, our technology has advanced to a level that we have the ability to eliminate scarcity. It is no longer necessary for a person to sell their labor to earn money in order to survive. Our technology has the ability to eliminate this. People living in a society like TVP would not be chained to a job. They would be set free to peruse whatever interests they wish. Simply put, our technology and knowledge have outgrown the current social structures. We need to be set free.
I would be very interested to see some information to support the idea that it is "human nature" for people to be perpetually fighting over something. Humans have never experienced such a state of abundance where all immediate needs were met for everyone. Humans have fought over many things such as land, water and energy. But, what if all humans had all the food, water and energy they needed? Would it be human nature to find something else to go to war over?
thanks bro i agree with you, but according to zeitgeist moving forward, there is no such thing like human nature. if you haven't watch it, please do it. and if you did let's spread the message.
That is the first premise that is flawed. I know TZM presents research to support this position, but there is also convincing research supporting the 'nature' side of the argument. The theory that there is no such thing as human nature is is far from proven. To base an entire system on a debatable hypothesis while history contradicts that hypothesis is--to be frank--foolish and naive.
You can't say that history contradicts this, because a resource based economy has never existed before, can you tell me where is the convincing research about the existence of human nature?
OK, here we go.
First, I'm not following your logic when you say, "you can't say that history contradicts this because a resource based economy has never existed..." Perhaps you misunderstood my assertion. My claim is that history contradicts the hypothesis that there is no such thing as human nature. Let's deal with the history first and then I'll give you the research citations you asked for.
Human nature is defined as "The psychological and social qualities that characterize humankind". So, for historical evidence of human nature we need to see that humans have demonstrated fairy consistent psychological and social qualities over time. For all of human history, across all cultures, humans have exhibited greed, violence, kindness, cooperation, deception, compassion, etc, etc. etc. Both good and bad behavior is exhibited regardless of time in history, culture or environment. This is your historical evidence that there is such a thing as human nature. If you want a citation, read history.
As for research, I am tempted to cite the entire field of evolutionary biology, but I will give you some specific papers. The predominant opinion in psychological and sociological research today is that BOTH nature and nurture play a role in human development and that they are intertwined in complex and inseparable ways. Here's the links:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=7rJ5gI1LbXoC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=Leda+Cosmides+and+Robert+Kurzban+nature+nurture&ots=cyN7JM8Kx5&sig=5ztuktOsN1DY_dkDft0VIqFzRuc#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1996-97203-000
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/78/1/173/
Finally, I will contest your assertion that a resource based economy has never existed. There was a time in human history when humans had ONLY resource based economies. This time period was from the origin of modern humans, roughly 50,000 years ago, until the introduction of currency, roughly 4,000 years ago. During that time, there was no money, no corporations, no governments to speak of, and certainly no central banks ;-). Still, humans did not all live in peace and harmony. Go figure.
That is exactly my point. And yes, I have seen all the material from TZM and TVP. I have also visited TVP and spoke in person with Mr. Fresco and Ms. Meadows. It was a wonderful experience.
I could be wrong, but the impression I get from reading many promoters of TZM on this board is that they feel this is a brand new, revolutionary idea that has never been thought of or tried before. To paraphrase Mark Twain, history does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme. The proposed execution of TZM, with the heavy reliance on 21st century technology is new, but the underlying system and ideas are not. Such systems have been extensively written about and tried. They have failed and have produced horrific results for the populations involved. Perhaps there are ways to avoid the same results with TZM. I personally don't think so, but I concede it may be possible. Supporters of this idea, though, will never be able to address those issues if they aren't even aware of them.
With this, or any other proposed solution, it is prudent and necessary to test the assumptions, see where parallels exist in history (or the present), identify the weaknesses and then try to address them. I don't even see recognition that there ARE any weaknesses, which is the first step in ensuring one repeats mistakes of the past.
Our approach is both low and high tech. The best of the 19th and 21st Centuries.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Republic-of-Olancho/149833091753264
www.republicofolancho.com
in fact jacque fresco said: this is not a perfect system but it is much better than all we have.
Cool. Then let's talk about what is not perfect, what could go wrong and how that might be prevented. All I have seen so far is insistence that TZM is the solution to all our problems and that it will work (sometimes in capital letters). This is not evaluation of an alternative, it's demagoguery.
Is not a demagoguery because there wouldn't exist governments or leaders, there wouldn't be nobody superior than you, and you will not be superior than anybody, everyone will be interesting in improve society cuz they will be affected if someone has scarcity of any resource, for example in this system everyone will be concern in education cuz everyone will be benefit with the knowledge of the other people, if someone invented something useful, everyone will be benefit...
Is not a perfect system but it will be more concern about the human needs and not be concern about profits like other systems such as capitalism...also it will easier to fix any problems that arises because people will be more educated, will have more knowledge, and will help each other... this is not happening in this system, because as long money exist there will be people concerned about their profit.
You misunderstand. I am saying that the support I see here for TZM without critical thought applied is demagoguery--trying to obtain support for the movement by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace. It doesn't matter, though.
You asset that there will be 'more concern about the human needs and not concern about profits". What evidence do you have that removing profits increases concern about human needs?
What evidence do you have that it is easier to solve problems if people are more educated?
"Money" does not make people greedy. Money is just an instrument created to facilitate trade. So that if I have oranges and I need bricks, I don't have to find someone who has bricks and needs oranges to trade with. We can agree on a medium of exchange--money--so that I can sell my oranges to anyone and then go buy my bricks from whoever has them.
Scarcity is an interesting issue about which there has been much sociological research. We can ponder the question though just by observing. It is true that if there is an abundance of something, people tend to fight less over it. It is also true that people value things that are scare, often for no logical reason. Take diamonds, for example. Little utilitarian value, but people want them because of their scarcity. They are a way of telling others, "Look what I can acquire". If diamonds started falling from the sky tomorrow, demand for them would vanish and people would find something else that was scarce to covet. So you can stop people from fighting over a particular thing by making ti abundant, but that won't stop them from finding something else to covet. This is human nature. Abundance will not solve this.
mmm for your coments i can see that you haven't seen zeitgeist moving forward, if you watch it you will find your answers.
If you eliminate profit (money) it will be irrelevant to have a bussines so they will have to change the way that they live, venus project propose to live in cities self sustainable, and if we live in those cities we will help each other because we will need that all people are healthy, so they can help other people, so if we work together we can do everything for the common good.
If people are more educated, it will be more inteligent people who has better ideas, for example does politics solve technicals problems? no they dont, they make laws, science solve problems no politics. does politics help sick people? medicine (science) help sick people.
I dont know if i explained to you well, due my first lenguaje is spanish, i am Mexican, but in zeitgeist moving forward they will answer your questions, i beg you bro (sis) please watch it and spread the message.
P.S. Did you know that in mines when they discovered a lot of diamonds, they buried them so in that way they will have less diamonds so they can sell them in a higher price.
P.S. 2 There is not such a human nature, it will explain to you better in zeitgeist moving forward, hope you can watch it, and when you do it, please let's talk. greetings from Mexico.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aLGFZDiwRs
I 100% agree. My main issue with TZM/TVP is that their solution is proposed as the ONLY way forward.
Its ideas ought to be regarded as suggestions to the OWS movement and weighed on their merits.
FIY the first two movies (Zeitgeist: The Movie and Zeitgeist: Addendum) are not related to the movement. Please visit the official site for more infromation http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/
"While it is true TVP is not new (it has been in development for about the last 50 years), it has NOT been tried before."
We are making a go of it in Olancho. Stay tuned.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Republic-of-Olancho/149833091753264
www.republicofolancho.com
Absolutely and I am part of TZM. I am a huge advocate of a Resource Based Economy but rarely see any ideas on how to move towards that goal through our current system. I feel if we want to eventually move to a society that is based on the worlds resources, we need to phase out our achaic system of taxation and move to a land tax system. By taxing the land rents, this can produce more than enough money to invest into these labor saving, environmentally friendly technologies. If you have never heard od LVT or are a little unfamiliar with the principles and benefits of economic rent, please continue to read.
The theory of economic rent has been around for some time, but land taxation has seldom been implemented throughout history. It is well known that the factors of production are composed of land, labor and capital. Land, in the economic sense, can be explained as anything with a productive capacity that has not been created by men or women, but has value created by the community. Labor is any human energy spent , whether by the mind or through brute force, that contributes to a means of production. Capital is mainly what is spent from savings for future production. Under the current system, mainly labor and capital are taxed, while the landed elite make out like bandits with the rents that are created by the community! It is no surprise that civilizations have suffered from vast inequalities since the founding of the first governments.
What we need to fight for is a redistribution of these economic rents for the sake of the people, while at the same time reducing the tax rates on labor and capital. These rents from land are the source of all wealth and are presently held by a small number of wealthy people who will speculate and slow there productive capacity in order to increase profits.
This demand goes out to the people of OWS! If there is one thing we need to change in order to promote equality, environmental protection and job creation through increased productive capacity, this is the solution we need. Please read about economic rent and land taxation in order to fully grasp the concept.
This is something proven in theory and not based on anyone's personal opinion or ideology. While we are divided on many things, it's time to come together with some real demands to benefit the majority of unrepresented individuals of the world. Lets show the top 1% that we know where their unearned wealth is coming from and that we know exactly what is needed in order to bring them back to the real world!
is a very good point, but, while there is money, it will be corruption.
Yes I agree, corruption is unavoidable, but hear me out. Under he land tax I proposed above, many of the laws we have would become irrelevant. For example even if a company participates in fraudulent activity, the value of businesses land will increase with profits from greater demand for that location. If the land is being taxed, even fraudulent activity will not result in bigger rewards for the perpetrators. That fraudulent profit will inevitably be absorbed by the land tax. While fraud is unethical, it was not have the detrimental effects like it has now. I don't see an immediate transition to RBE happening, but this can be a possible step into that direction.
who will collect the land tax? goverments?
I don't see another way these taxes can be collected. There would definitely have to be laws established in tandem to decide how the tax is redistributed and to ensure it is used in a productive manner. And honestly, even if it is used for non-productive means, it is much better than unethical taxation we have now which taxes some people who don't own a damn thing. I feel the best use for the tax would be to use it to invest in sustainable technologies. This is why it can be a transition to a moneyless society. The funds can be used to build infrastructure needed for hydroponic food farms that produce almost no waste and require practically no labor to maintain. We can upgrade our power grid to new smart grid technologies to increase efficiency. Power generation from wind, solar and thermal can be implemented. These technologies require very little maintenance, but a huge initial investment. This is what makes the land tax superior to other taxes is that it allows the free movement of commodities by private enterprise, but allows for a large public concentration of money to be used to build social projects. These projects will never be built by private interest groups, because investments are only profitable if they can continue to be consumed and charged a fee. If everyone had free energy, there are no profits to be made. Thats why large, sustainable projects can only be done by the public, for public interests.
The land tax has been done on a small scale in parts of Pennslyvania, Australia, Hong Kong as well as other places. These places have all showed positive results in their economies by increasing equality, protecting the environment by slowing the expansion of cities, reducing crime and increasing productivity. Unfortunately, the land tax has not been done on a large enough scale to gain recognition. We will never see this topic come up in politics if we don't educate people about its benefits. The people that own all of the land have coincidentally been the same people that made the laws of the land throughout history.
Bro(sis) you really need to know the truth, please watch the videos (zeitgeist documentary and the venus project).
Laws exists because politics dont know how to solve problems, science solve problems.
Politics are useless, money is also useless, if you want to invest the money obtained from taxes to have clean energy, that wouldnt work because oil bussines dont want to have clean energy because they wont have profit, if there is money people can be bribed, please watch documentarys and the venus project, you will be thankfull i can assure you that.
For the record, I am a member of TZM. I have watched all of the documentaries and lectures on RBE. I am definitely pro RBE and I know how corruption has plagued our system. With that being said, TZM does a great job of spreading awareness about our social injustices but doesn't have a plan set forth for a transition. If you believe in RBE and that it stands for equality and cooperation, you are pro-land tax but just don't know it. Taxing land has an interesting effect because it can't be avoided and therefore, does not manipulate prices like income, sales and property taxes. What this effectively does is takes the concentration of wealth out of private hands and puts it into public hands. There are vast amounts of corruption in Washington, but this is enabled by large corporations having the means to buy off politicians. You take that power away from private institutions, how are they going to buy off our legislators? And this tax isn't going straight into individuals pockets, just like Income Taxes don't go into their pockets. Money in politics does not come from taxes, but comes from private sources. The individuals in government never touch the taxes.
Judging by your opinion on TZM, I think if you learned a little more about this method of taxation you might agree with me. This is obviously not an RBE, but it is based on sound theories and actually promotes equally without the need to try to change human behavior. With a system like this already in place and a more equal and just society, maybe people will finally see that we don't need this garbage anymore that we call money. If you have any interest in fully grasping this concept, please read this book.
http://www.henrygeorge.org/pdfs/PandP_Drake.pdf
you wanna propose tax the land as transition to RBE? maybe you are right cuz i dont understand very well about tax the land, but if it is a transition to RBE i hope it will be fast. cuz we have a change right now. i will check the book. For the record i want RBE with all my heart and i hope this happens fast!!!
Here are some other threads with good discussions on this.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-need-a-resource-based-economy/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/resource-based-economy-this-is-the-solution/
thanks i will check it.
Star Trek did a good piece with a robot called "Landru" controlling a collective. Sadly, Capt. Kirk made the computer go into a logic loop after showing it the error of its ways and the machine literally exploded. I'm sure Macs would have the same flaw.
why are you sure about that? have you ever tried? do you think something that happens in a sci fi movie will happens on reality?
Fascism has been done before, there's nothing new about it. Except the feature where the computer gets to play dictator, was that stolen from "Pinky and the Brain"?
this is none "ism", is something new, you can´t compare this to someone that we were pass through the history, and if you are afraid about machines or computer that is because you see a lot of sci fi movies, shows, books, etc.
P.S. You should whatch the documentary, in third movie they explain about the predisposition we have to new systems.
I have watched all three movies, there is some good research in there but their conclusions are pure rubbish.
why do you say that, why is rubbish to want a resource based economy?
It is rubbish because centralization of POWER is the PROBLEM.
To suggest you can solve centralization by EVEN MORE CENTRALIZATION is idiotic.
But in an resource based economy, there wouldn't be power centralization because a computer system will share all the resources acording the area, to make all people will have all they needs for free...why a computer will share all the resources? because a computer wont be greedy or corruptible, also is more exact and faster in calculation than us.
I would love for little robots to strip mine the earth and do all the work for us. We totally need to do this and start today !
I hope people can see the sarcasm in my comment.
i dont get it at all, you mean that we were like robots and do the work for 1% of people, or you mean that all you say is sarcasm cuz you dont think this is possible?
No, we are not the robots...
The ultimate goal of the zeitgeist movement, Little robots strip mine the earth and build every thing. Anything thing you want you just take then later recycle it. To make it even more fun, super computers control all of the worlds resources and decide what to build for us and how much. It literally is a world where Robots are our slaves and we just do what we want. Maybe in a couple 1000 years this might be possible but for right now it's just laughable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqv0Y1t1bNw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQDArhWznjU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIYRQC2iBp0 ;)
of course is not laughable, in fact this project was propose 40 years ago by jaque fresco, then imagine all we discovered in 40 years, of course i cannot promise you that the next year it will be robots, of course not, is a transition, but in that transition in a economy based on resources we will not suffer, in fact we will help each others.
P. S. Remember this, many years ago people dont believe men could fly, also they dont even imagine about computers, or music coming out from a little dispositive.
thumbs up
great ideas. fascist cult.
great initiatives, what are those people doing now, there should be some kind of getting together
a few days ago peter joseph talk in occupy LA, and he sent a very good message to all the occupy movements, have you heard about it?
already found it, thanks
no, were there any recordings, good news though!
have you seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQqjTxI3vc&feature=channel_video_title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkinHuvLEaU&feature=relmfu
nice links thanks
please spread the info...
here is another link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7CQUbcn7Bk&feature=related
I agree what Zeitgeist says about how new regulations of the current system will not suffice in the long run
i agree too, that is why i am trying to make all the zeitgeist movement and project venus get viral. please help spreading the info.
The CFR is the problem, David Rockefeller is the problem! Research and educate who is behind the curtain! http://awakeandarise.org/article/Rockefeller.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4D1Iwfm6ZA
Yep. Eye opening, isn't it? I am all for a resource based economy.
that is very good bro(sis), i am trying to spread the message please do the same, i heard in news that this movement has no a specific goal, i think the venus project will be a very good one. So let's spread the message until the 99% knows about it.
It's been mentioned on this forum a lot during at least the past few days since I started visiting. I think there are a lot of people for the concept. Hopefully it will snowball.
Oh, and it's sis ;)
ok, i didnt know that cuz i just join today in this web, i hope too this get the snowball effect. However i have to mention that i see people who has no a specific goal only a few proposal, so i want to spread the message, hope this get viral too. thanks for reply sis, hope we can change the world...greetings from Mexico.
Welcome to the crazy world that is known as this forum, lol! Don't feed into the hate comments. Ignore them and they will go away :)
thanks for the welcome and about the hate comments i will try to educate those people, because they hate due to lack of education.