Forum Post: Goals NOT. Demands
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 30, 2011, 10:09 p.m. EST by L3employee
(63)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I'm only in Liberty Square in spirit & by the really small virtue of mailing a check.
That being said, I am disturbed by the cries from the mainstream media for a list of coherent "demands". Goals are not the same as demands, goals are broader than demands. We want democracy to be that, ballots, not bullets, ballots, not dollars - people before profits, every time and all the time. Simple goal, really - but not one to be easily codified in some sophomoric list of demands.
So? What are they? The goals, the road map. Give me something!!!
Semantics are important, especially in a world of carefully scripted network news.
Demands have to be negotiated, goals are discussed.
People fight for demands. They achieve goals.
In all things using positive language as opposed to negative will yield better results.
So someone is going to announce official goals? No, they will not. You'll get opinions from every single person on here but never an official announcement that goes to all media outlets.
Whether it is goals or demands doesn't mean as much to me as just putting a plan together. It dumbfounds me as to why OWS believes they will solve problems without first providing solutions.
You want what is, essentially, a business plan. You want "official" announcements. Why will you not understand that business plans, and "official" announcements are the problem, not the solution. Eyes on the prize, goal is - ballots, not dollars, people before profits all the time, every time. You got an idea that'll get us there? Sure would like to hear it, but that's what I want. I'm working on how to get there.
The point is that you've missed the point. The point is that those that we call our leaders need to be working on how to get there, too.
I get the point, I just don't agree with it. From what I have seen, most people on here want something official as well yet a select few keep saying nothing is needed.
You said the goal is ballots, not dollars and people before profits. I can go find 100 other goals as well on here. Who gets priority over the other? The point I'm making is that everyone is putting their goals out but there is no organization to make anything official. It seems to me that OWS is stuck in an infinite brainstorming mode. The ideas are still coming but nobody is collectively getting them organized into a manner where everyone can cast a 'ballot'.
The way to move forward is through organizational structure. I know you will most likely disagree with that and if you do feel free to explain how things should be prioritized, who will submit amendments to bills, new bills etc. Who will see them throught the House and Senate. Who will even introduce them? This should already be done at the point and leadership should be worried about growth.
You mentioned 'our leaders' and I will automatically ask who they are? You will most likely answer everyone and I will respectfully disagree that a collective without leadership will get anything done. Too much disagreement, not enough mediation.
Last, could you imagine what would happen if the CEO, CFO and all other "White Collar" leadership just disappeard from a successful company? Do you really think success would follow? The company would lose vision, budgets would fall apart and people would lose their focus on what needs to be done. While this company could recover, it wouldn't until leadership was reestablished. You can use the same analogy with a football team. Take all the coaches away and then tell them to go play a game. It just doesn't work that way.
Take a Look at my post: 'Fighting Points- Choose and Do It Now'. There is something in there for you.
FuzzyThinker, I will certainly read it. The truth of the matter is though that many people have had great lists. You would think a consolidated list that everyone can agree on would have been built by now. It's sad because the ingredients to do it right are there yet nobody is doing it. I might be a hypocrite by writing this but I would even do it but I will not throw my job away for what I feel is stagnate right now.
Another thing, let's assume your list is, 'the list'. Suppose you get great feedback, suggestions etc. What happens next? Because there is no organization, it would just get lost in the disorganization. I'm honestly at a loss as to how this movement can ever go forward in its present state. The really sad thing is that some are defending the lack of clear goals and organization. Makes me scratch my head...lol
I was there in the 60's. Some participants are just having fun(in their misery). Ignore them. Leaders will arise. People will rally around. My list is actionable. It is Not Complete. It would be nice if everyone concentrated on one focus- such as MLK. My List does Not need perfect focus. Independent small groups can rally on each of my Fighting Points and still participate in the Grand Protest. Work Can Get Done While Others Party, Party, Party.
Well said, let's hope it moves in the right direction.
You can't see it, but I'm giving you a standing ovation! We need something to work towards, concrete goals with viable solutions or people will start looking elsewhere for those solutions. OWS may have captured the imagination of "the 99%," but the movement as a whole needs to come up with viable (non-violent) solutions to the problems they are highlighting. With no solutions offered, there is no movement, because there are no solutions offered... it just keeps going around like that. Thank you.
Take a Look at my post: 'Fighting Points- Choose and Do It Now'. There is something in there for you.
is it possible to give me a link? I can't seem to find it. Thank you. :)
Fight for #1. Keep your Faith in America. Focus on the Greed of a few CEO's. Do Not Broad-Brush. Continue to be Civil, Sanitary, and Orderly. Do Not Let Violence Hijack the Movement. America is gathering around you. Make a List of Demands. Organize a Task Force for each Demand. Get the WORD Out! Ask for Help and Support of Each Demand. Remember, This Is Not About Party- It Is About Uniting Americans Around Good Things. Be Polite to those that disagree with you- This Is All About Winning. Fight for #2. Target Barney Frank and Chris Dodd for DEFEAT in the next Election. They started the Home Mortgage Crisis and protected bad banks. Fight for #3. Stop Subsidizing CEO's. FICA all CEO earnings. CEO compensation is NOT a Valid Business Expense- Shareholders should pay for it and their Golden Parachutes (out of the Dividends). Fight for #4. Speculation destroys Stability. IRAs get hurt. Control the Gamblers: Advocate a tax of 30%(payed at time of sale) on Short Term Capital Gains for first 2 years. No more Deducting Short Term Losses on your taxes. Fight for #5. Tell Congress to Pass a Balanced Budget Amendment and Send it to the States. Fight for #6...2,000 of the $Millionaire Incomes Pay ZERO IRS Tax. Find out what they're hiding behind: Credits, Exemptions, Exclusions, Caps, Deductions, Tax Breaks, Loopholes. Tell Congress Super Committee to 'Make Things Right'. Fight for #7. New Game Plan for Congress. Divide the New Jobs Money In-Half to R & D. Let each Party Prove they can create the most new jobs. The Media and CBO keeps score for the next 6 months. We the PEOPLE mark a 'Check-Off' on our IRS-1040 for 2012 on which Jobs Act We want to CANCEL on April 15th, 2012. Fight for #8. Tell Freshwo/men Congressionals to PUSH for: ALL Govt Salarys go on a 4-day work-week with 20% Cut in Pay UNTIL Budget is Balanced. They need to Feel Our Pain. They need to do a better job of Reducing non-essential Spending and Find New Jobs for the rest of US. Fight for #9. Tell congress: Stop Sheltering Dividends. Exempting Dividends from IRS Taxes will Do NOTHING for Creating New Jobs. Why? Because nearly 50% of all the Stocks are owned by the 1%. Tax breaks on Dividends are a SUBSIDY for the Rich. Fight for #10. Get the WORD out: 6% Pay 60% of IRS Collections. 45% Pay Zero Taxes. Lots of Corps like GE and Not-For-Profit Tax Shelters need to be dealt with. Tell Congress Super Committee: 'Everyone has to tighten their belt one-more-notch'. Fight for #11. Stop the Budget Ceiling Gridlock. Each Party Pay for Their Own Priority. Democrats Pay for $Trillion Stimulus Union Bailout thru Districts that Voted for It. Republicans Pay for little-Bush's IRAQ WAR thru Districts that Voted for it. Fight for #12. US Attorney filed suit in Sept against 17 Banks that killed the Home Mortgage Economy. Tell the State Attorney Generals to Negotiate HARD with Banks trying to get IMMUNITY- BofA, Morgan, Chase, Goldman... Fight for #13. Stop WellsFargo from eating up local banks and creating a monopoly and boosting surcharges. Fight for #14. Sweep the Congressional Rascals Out. Target Experienced Politicians. Only Freshwo/men can push for Change. Tell Them What You Want. Do It In The PRIMARY. Fight for #15. This is a 'One-Two' Punch situation: Jab Wall Street CEOs to take them off balance; then Slug Congress into Reforming the Tax Code while the Lobbyists are dizzy. Fight for #16. Get Permits to Plow the Vacant Lots. Build Community Gardens. This is the Second Great Depression. Prepare for Govt Assistance To Run Out. Fight for #17. Build the Fence on the Border. Stop whining. Start Doing. Get a shovel and GO. Fight for #18. Split up the banks from the speculators- We will stand against Citi and Goldman and Morgan and Chase and BofA and Wells-Fargo... Fight for #19. Go where the Drugs are. Shut Down the Dealers. Take the Addicts Under Your Arm to a Safe Place. Help them Get It Together. Fight for #20. Veterans Arise. Put on the Old Uniform. Stand between the City Hall Police and the Citizens you are trained to protect.
Thanks, there's some good ideas there. :)
I built a web page last night. View points are better displayed: http://fuzzythinker.webstarts.com/index.html
I certainly want change, but I just don't see this movement bringing it as of right now. Ants have more organization and goals. Maybe we could learn from them....lol
Maybe you could teach something. Want to start another movement, go ahead. If the goals are similar, got no problem with that.
Sadly agree. :(
dido
Some urgent demands that organize people to fight for their civil liberties and rights; expose the capitalist system at the same time; and don't impose unnecessary restrictions on who can join the movement (meaning, you don't have to agree with 57 Marxist principles in order to protest) include:
STOP THE FORECLOSURES--a moratorium on all foreclosures--no evictions (at least not in this economy, or at least not for the 99%)
NO BUDGET CUTS--no cuts in services to schools, hospitals, unemployment, Medicare, Medicaid--especially urgent due to upcoming attempts to destroy the country using the deficit excuse--Noam Chomsky describes this assault on working people as a knife aimed straight at the heart of the country
A NATIONAL PUBLIC WORKS PROGRAM--like the WPA in the Depression--to put more teachers in schools; more aides in hospitals; replace crumbling infrastructure; engineering projects to protect against floods and hurricanes.
I agree with the proposal, that I understand two congresspeople support, for the tax on stock trades that won't hurt pension funds or individual investors like the 99%.
Thanks very much.
I agree. Goals, not demands.
kudos!
How to remove corporate greed thru social financial shift
Once you have say..50% of the public signed on to the cause you can now organize on a specified date for a execution of the plan. The plan consist of bankrupting a company by pulling stocks,refusal to work,withholding pay from bills and from not buying the chosen companies products. For example let's say a multibillion dollar company all of a sudden looses close to half the workers in it's factory while simultaneously a major sell off of it's stock was occurring at wall street. The stock would plummet and the media would be quick to cover the unfolding developments.then as if the shock of a diminished workforce and a stock freefall wasn't enough the payment of half the goods on the books would remain unpaid along with the half empty stores filled with the talk of a giant who had fallen by the sheer will of the people The doomed company goes bankrupt within a very short amount of time and the workers start up a co-op an Employee owned company under new management with the proceeds and increase profit benefitting those that work there and the distribution of the wealth is filtered thru those of us in the community. We can do this to all the multibillion dollar companies and essentially get the money back. It was our money in the first place and it can be done. The benefits of such a hostile takeover of a major corporation are two fold you redistribute the money to the people and you eliminate a sponsor of political corruption.No corporations translates to no lobbyist and crooked deals behind close doors.Not only do you get the money back but in the end you get a political system that actually works for the people
"We want democracy to be that, ballots, not bullets, ballots, not dollars - people before profits, every time and all the time."
catchy
Yes, it IS catchy.
Whatta you got? "Kapital uber alles!" perhaps?
http://twitter.com/#!/Matt_Holck
Well, ya want goals & demands. What's wrong with those?
ballots doesn't have to be said twice
"We want democracy to be that, ballots, not bullets, shares, not salaries - people not profits, every time, all the time."
I's just messing with it
Please Read my Post: "Fighting Points- Choose and Do It Now". There are 19 Activities appealing to many interests. Some take place at the Ballot Box. Others require writing a letter or calling your 3 Elected Ones (Representative, Senator, President). Some are Bold Ideas requiring thinking 'Outside the Box'. Lots will slow down the increasing inequality in wealth. Specific Banks are mentioned. Results are Possible.
tyranny of the rich have divided and corrupted the political system.In conjunction with occupying the streets we need to boycott products and not go to work for them in addition to having people pull the stocks out of the companies.take out these giants with a combined focus effort and put the goliath down with one calculated well put stone
heres a solution.Get the money from the corporations and turn the companies into a employee owned business.It will redistribute the wealth and infuse the economy
Which corporations would those be? Who decides which corporations are exempt from being redistributed? Who gets to decide on redistributing a company that someone has built with their money and hard work so someone else can come along and give away their effort?
If wealth redistribution is what you want, what will drive someone to work harder if knowing their success will be taken from them?
we take a vote on the top companies.make a list and have a vote here on this site.as far as redistributing the company it exchanges hands from the CEO's to the employees.It becomes a employee owned business
I hope you realize how ridiculous your argument really is, top companies are generally publicly traded companies.
The CEO has to answers to board of directors, board of directors has to answer to share holders, whom maybe mom and pop from Wisconsin or employees of the company itself.
So if the employees wants to own the business, they can buy their shares.
Yes, my argument is ridiculous. I work for a publicly traded company. Once I've been paid, and paid my expenses, there is nothing left to "invest" in this publicly traded company. Mom & pop in Wisc. may own shares in the company, but most likely only indirectly through their retirement fund. Mom & pop in Wisconsin probably would not approve of, say, Chevron, buying African Government forces to machine gun their own citizens for having the temerity to oppose Chevron destroying their local environment - yet this has happened, and Mom & Pop in Wisconsin never got to vote on the issue, because their retirement fund was the "owner of record".
This is OK with you, sparky?
have you seen the stock market lately the siesmic shifts from one day to the next?do you think ma and pa wisconsin are the ones pulling that much financial weight? top 10 have over half the wealth and invest heavily they set up the deck by controlling the ebb n flow of money in the stocks because its really beneficial to know and control these shifts if your portfolio is what helps make these things happen.Its hard to know 300 million people when your working class but its alot easier for the top1 to all know each other
I would say only to target companies directly extorting US the taxpayers, theres already plenty of them to choose from. Theres nothing wrong with getting or being very rich, like who could be mad at whoever started any chain resteraunt, public non govt related business, any actor, athlete, or sports team owner? They've earned their money the right way, we need to differentiate between hard working businessmen and extortionist. Now for the other side, many financial industry leaders, medical industry leaders who work with CDC "govt" to monopolize pharmaceutics, and many defense and govt construction contractors; all make their money by extorting the Govt, and hitting "we the taxpayers" with a big bill. Thats who we gotta target. Who could explain defense contractors proffiting 580 billion during this war? And we wonder why its taken 10 yrs? Only for us to kill all top officials over the past 6 months. If thats how you feel about how business should run, as I honestly would handle my employees better as well how about this. Start our own businesses, it could be anything, a farm, bread baking company, local market ect. Im starteing a restaurant and sandwich shop, we can be good local pilars in our own communities through hard work, and good will.
Indeed I have, and no I don't think ma and pa moves the market, but so what?
We are talking about taking ownership in companies, not the stock market.
If you want to be a part of the 10% figure out a way to get there, and not by trying to take it from someone else.
OK, to start - it's ONE PERCENT. And you've really missed the point if you think all of these people are shivering in the cold in city parks becauces they want to be among the one percent. To be sure, no one would object to a membership in that club.
What you're not seeing is that we don't recognize the one percent owning an allegedly democratic political system. Sure, they can get rich, but not by impoverishing everyone else. Why does this seem to be so hard for people to understand>
the stock market is already owned my friend thats the sad part about it. Pull stock, anticipate the fall,build return off the lower stock price by buying it back and repeat.The losers are those who invest and are not in on it
Demands recognize authority. Recognizing corrupt authority is accepting tyranny. That corrupt authority includes the corporate media that is busy trying to belittle OWS and insure its own profit and survival at any expense.
OWS, now in infancy, will grow and evolve into the socially responsible society we wish we had. That's what the media and the corrupt corporate-financial-government power structure is afraid of, and why they are busy trying to destroy the movement.