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Forum Post: Food for thought - an OWS agenda

Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 22, 2011, 7:01 a.m. EST by Helsinki (34)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

The movement is fundamentally a protest at how the richest 1% have a monopoly on wealth, decision-making and political leverage. The movement does not want to water down that protest by adopting an existing political ideology that would effectively be used to 'change the subject'. It's a good stance.

However, the OWS movement has attracted a lot of attention now from the wider public, and if the movement does not articulate something at least a little more detailed than the above, then a vacuum is left that allows opponents to misrepresent the movement with pejorative labels: hippies, unemployed, dreamers, lefties, rebel youth etc.

I wish to offer a single idea that constitutes the moral ground of the movement as well as being realistic about the change that people hope for:

"What the world needs is responsible production and responsible consumption."

That's a two-way bargain that fits to the whole idea of market economies, as relationships between product/service providers and buyers; it requires responsible action from both if the balance between social and economic values is to be kept such that it benefits society/the planet as a whole.

There are many economic models, but what's missing is responsibility, something that goes beyond individual or corporate responsibility, but rather something that is genuinely recognised as a collective responsibility that can be met by corporations, organisations, individuals, decision makers and policy makers.

Of course, that still leaves the whole idea of what it means to be 'responsible', but it's a start, and it points in the right direction.

One thing I would say is that for our system of society to involve, we need to add a fundamental ingredient into this whole framework of production and consumption, and that is a feedback loop, so that people have information about the social consequences of the consumer decisions, and corporations can likewise be held to account for their practices.

Such an index (social impact index) might work in the same way that nutritional information is available on food to inform healthy choices.

People need feedback so that they know the consequences of their choices. The single biggest power of the 99% that has not been properly utilised is the power of consumers. Fair Trade and Organic as food labelling schemes have been very successful, and show that the principle is basically sound.

Ensure people have the right information and there is a much better chance they will make the right decisions. Such a call to social conscience would also place better restrictions on corporations.

Only one other point I want to add. The talk about wealth and its distribution is missing at least half of the picture. Profit goes in one direction, and risk goes in the other. It's the distribution in risk that has got us into financial difficulties.

The new financial products that have become the foundation of many corporate investment portfolios are prefaced on various kinds of mortgaged risk, that is, the economy, including household economies, operate on the basis of IOUs. There are two kinds of wealth - one is money, and the other is the lack of investment risk, i.e. security.

We really need to understand this if we are to create an economy that has the leverage of vast capital funds needed to fund investment and growth in our modern societies (building hospitals or factories requires large capital investment) and which doesn't put those vast capital funds in the hands of individuals whose only rationale is to create even larger capital funds.

Thanks for reading and good luck to all activists looking to bring some social conscience back to our world's decision-makers.

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67 Comments


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[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 12 years ago

I want you to go to this post. I want you to speak truth to power!. Say it once, say it twice. Say it loud. Say it proud. I'm down with the KTC. The Revolution starts here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8&feature=related

http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/

The Revolution starts here! No one can silence the Revolution!

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 12 years ago

That sounds great but you also need to print a basic pamplet on economics for dummies first so you can educate the masses of what it all means.

[-] 1 points by Pitviper (4) 12 years ago

Here is the detailed agenda, I am certain you will enjoy it:

  1. Mega Government Reform http://www.liberty-alliance.net/Pages/Mega%20reform.html

  2. Mega Economic Reform http://www.energy-economy.org/

Share This, 1000's of talking points for your arsenal! :)

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 12 years ago

A gradual phase-in over say 10 years of import tariff increases in order to bring this country on a par with the tariff rates in Europe and China would generate tax revenues to greatly reduce the national dept and tip the scales to make manufacturing in the US instead of overseas the better choice. That would mean JOBS for here.

A gradual phase-in would would lessen inflationary effects that the increased tariffs would add to retail prices. It would become a defacto comsumer tax. - ThuderclapNewman

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 12 years ago

You are mistaken when you say.

"The movement is fundamentally a protest at how the richest 1% have a monopoly on wealth, decision-making and political leverage. The movement does not want to water down that protest by adopting an existing political ideology that would effectively be used to 'change the subject'. It's a good stance."

The issue has always been an issue of big money in the political process. Get big money out of the political process and we can effect whatever changes the people want.

http://www.nycga.net/groups/political-and-electoral-reform/docs/amendment-28-to-the-constitution-of-the-united-states-of-america

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

Respectfully, that is part of the issue, but the slogans and the common reports of individuals in OWS are rather more general. What you are suggesting is more like the 'occupy Washington' agenda, and that really is something else, though of course, not unconnected.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 12 years ago

I have to disagree. The movement is about change and some things you can change and some things you can't. To make any change you have to create the tool that allows for the change. Many attempts have been made to make changes and each of them was corrupted and thwarted by the illiterate Judge hearing the case.

Time to change that which the laws are compared to, the Constitution or be stuck fighting big money to implement any change.

Good luck with that.

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

Thank you! Good luck to you too. :)

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

Fuzzyp

There will always be a subjective and moral dimension to this protest. Maybe you disagree or do not wish to see it articulated. Fine, but its hard to deny its relevance, unless you are, for example, an atheist who has a personal aversion to the word 'morality', in which case, I cannot help you. I'm an atheist that has no problem with the word 'morality'.

The principle of Fair Trade has been shown to be largely successful, and the kind of price distortions that the ASI complained about were as a result of lower market power of non-Fair Trade producers (see Hayes & Moore 2005).

However, my point is that Fair Trade is a good example of attaching some kind of social value (fair practices) to product labelling to allow consumers to choose. Such schemes of course need to be demonstrated to work and to be policed to ensure quality.

The same challenge will come in applying 'carbon footprints'. These changes will happen, but we can already recognise the important of information feedback loops in enabling and empowering people to patronise companies that practice socially responsible business practices. Indeed, one simple index might be ratios of profit sharing within a company that produces a product or service.

Of course these schemes will 'distort the markets'. But that is the point, the markets are so distorted already that any kind of change requires 'distortion' in another direction.

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

Everyone living in the United States are the 1% compared to the rest of the world. OWS is working to destroy the US and they have no idea they are doing so... Or maybe they do...

[-] 1 points by OccupyLink (529) 12 years ago

Good point. The OWS Movement has no intention of destroying the US. You can sleep easy now. :)

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

They are working to destroy capitalism (by their own admission). America is great because we are free to work and earn and keep the money we make (minus the increasing amount of money the government demands). Without capitalism, America will no longer be free as the government will control the money rather than the people and companies that earn it.

[-] 1 points by OccupyLink (529) 12 years ago

"By their own admission". I think you made that one up. No one here is against capitalism. We are against the criminals tand shysters who have turned up in the banks. They are the ones trying to wreck capitalism and democracy also. They will do anything to make money. They have conned innocent people out of their savings, thieved of pension funds or any other money not completely teid down, defrauded the taxpayer and wrecked fine corporations by their sharp practices.

[-] 1 points by George1234 (82) 12 years ago

You have summarized the issue very precisely...."We are against the criminals and shysters who have turned up in the banks. They will do anything to make money. They have conned innocent people out of their savings, thieved off pension funds or any other money; defrauded the taxpayer and wrecked the economy by their sharp practices. And they are fully aware that the SYSTEM will not punish them."

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

Anti Capitalism OWS demonstrators...

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=occupy+wall+street+signs&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=692&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=5ChqK6i_zcHqfM:&imgrefurl=http://tattlerextra.org/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-occupies-america/&docid=wrRiVhXtXKToqM&imgurl=http://tattlerextra.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-signs.jpg&w=550&h=382&ei=TCnOTpmhK4TdgQefwbCwDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=186&vpy=278&dur=2742&hovh=187&hovw=269&tx=186&ty=119&sig=108841843915662408800&page=3&tbnh=144&tbnw=204&start=33&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:33

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=occupy+wall+street+signs+communism&hl=en&gbv=2&biw=1280&bih=692&tbm=isch&tbnid=_CCWeK-w5u8iBM:&imgrefurl=http://www.nhteapartycoalition.org/tea/2011/10/07/occupy-wall-street-purely-communist-purely-astroturfed/&docid=a1_yqCr7LLqetM&imgurl=http://www.nhteapartycoalition.org/tea/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/communists.jpg&w=300&h=250&ei=VirOToONNsexgwfVkf2kDQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=121&sig=108841843915662408800&page=1&tbnh=152&tbnw=176&start=0&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0&tx=58&ty=70

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=occupy+wall+street+signs+communism&hl=en&gbv=2&biw=1280&bih=692&tbm=isch&tbnid=rEW_kzbF5F_ATM:&imgrefurl=http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/2011/11/04/white-house-communist-party-approved-occupy-wall-street-hated-by-most-americans-pelosi-blesses-ows-despite-her-ties-to-credit-card-companies/&docid=cRCNYnQHvGM1FM&imgurl=http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/communist-sign-occupy-oakland-nov-2011.jpg&w=500&h=381&ei=VirOToONNsexgwfVkf2kDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=796&vpy=155&dur=4305&hovh=196&hovw=257&tx=117&ty=118&sig=108841843915662408800&page=1&tbnh=152&tbnw=190&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=occupy+wall+street+signs+capitalism&hl=en&gbv=2&biw=1280&bih=692&tbm=isch&tbnid=Bcs3c9e0oclFxM:&imgrefurl=http://www.mrc.org/biasalert/2011/20111005113625.aspx&docid=H0V0h_0gTgvZ6M&imgurl=http://www.mrc.org/biasalert/uploads/2011-10-05-NBC-TDAY-CapitalismCrisis.jpg&w=440&h=332&ei=-CvOTpTlFcP6ggf7jrnGDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=974&vpy=233&dur=6420&hovh=195&hovw=259&tx=170&ty=109&sig=108841843915662408800&page=2&tbnh=140&tbnw=195&start=15&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:15

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=occupy+wall+street+signs+capitalism&hl=en&gbv=2&biw=1280&bih=692&tbm=isch&tbnid=yYjs1uzipDRsiM:&imgrefurl=http://www.dnainfo.com/20110928/downtown/occupy-wall-street-protesters-are-too-noisy-residents-say/slideshow/popup/122774&docid=s3IRRQ-RoFkM_M&imgurl=http://assets.dnainfo.com/generated/photo/2011/09/1316281713.jpg/image640x480.jpg&w=640&h=480&ei=-CvOTpTlFcP6ggf7jrnGDQ&zoom=1

[-] 1 points by OccupyLink (529) 12 years ago

Wow. You have cherry-picked a few signs here. What is your intention here?

Are you trying to make the entire movement appear anti-Capitalist? How? By presenting the bank criminals as patriots defending Capitalist America?

It won't work. These banksters are criminals, not capitalists or patriots. Capitalists have capital. These bank guys just thieve off all of us, capitalists too.

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

You said that no one here was against capitalism. I picked the signs of people who were against capitalism. Look at the fist at the top of the page. Clearly a Communist symbol. Look at the organizations supporting the movement... Communists, Socialists, Marxists, unions, anti-American, anti-capitalists.

As far as "the bankers" being criminals, perhaps you should look up the definition of a criminal. It is someone who breaks the law. If you (we) elect a government that allows (through graft) or demands the bankers act in a way that jeopardizes the banking business model (obligating loans to lenders who cannot afford the loan), you really have more of an issue with the government than you do with the bankers.

[-] 1 points by OccupyLink (529) 12 years ago

Hi toonces. Thank you for you comments. I did say that "no one here was against capitalism". I didn't mean it literally. I meant that the movement's goal is not to against capitalism, to try to bring it down.

I also take your point about various organisations supporting the movement, includng Socialists etc. The things is that everyone is welcome in the movement, and any group of people who support our aims. It is not just the so called left that is coming out to support us. There are also church leader, veterans associations and we have much in common with the aims of the Tea Party also.

Some people do try to push their own agenda, or even try to co-opt the entire Occupy Movement into their own group. Of course, they won't do that, any more than we could make another movement, say the anti-War Movement part of our movement.

By definition, "bankers" are not criminals until they are proven to break the law. However, there is the spirit of the law, and how we are expected to conduct ourselves in society. I think there is far more to this than selling loans to people who can't afford them. Worse is deliberately attacking (short selling) companies that are in trouble to bring them down. Many bank people don't know what compassion is. If you haven't got it, then others won't show it to you. "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword".

On your last point, I don't think changing the law will help. The banks will just get around them. There needs to be a shift in the banking mentality. For too long, they have talked about "integrity" and "ethics". They should start talking about words like "honesty", "truth" and "goodness", and doing it also.

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

There needs to be a shift in what the citizens expect from government and what rights the citizens have that they will refuse to allow the government to trample.

[-] -1 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

"Responsibility" and "morality" are genuinely stupid things to throw around in the political arena because of their subjectivity.

And by the way, read the Adam Smith Institute's report on Fair Trade. They concluded was that it was a scam that actually hurts the poorest farmers around the world. It's not an economically sound model.

The free market is actually very easy to make accountable because it is incentive driven. All you have to do is incentivize things like green technology in order for it to happen.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

the free market is not incentive driven, it is greed driven. also, the market does nothing for innovation and it does not drive social advancement. for example, why are we still using oil and coal? not because their is no incentive for alternative energies, but, because the oil and coal industries control the market and our government. your argument is ridiculous.

[-] -1 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

You haven't taken economics obviously.

Greed is the incentive. All you need to remember is that "money talks and bullshit walks".

The market is entirely based on innovation. If it wasn't, we would be farming with our hands out in some field. It's the reason for technological advancements.

We're using oil and coal because they're cheap and alternative energies are far more expensive. If alternatives to coal and oil were cheaper, then we would switch over to them.

[-] 2 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

FuzzyP

  • "money talks and bullshit walks"

But that's the problem - money isn't talking, it's DEMANDING that risk of investment is minimised, not simply because its better for all of us that a bum investment isn't made, but because WHEN the investment is made, then the damage from the failure of that investment, if it happens, is felt not by the investors of capital, but rather the other investors, those investing their labour (employees) or supplying products/services to that investment (creditors).

And while 'greed' has proven a powerful incentive, it fails to take account of responsibility. Responsibility is about having the resources to respond to the needs of the day. I imagine even you would agree there need to be checks and balances in an economic system to stop it collapsing or becoming distorted by 'monopoly'? In this case, we arrived at a state of monopoly some time ago, the monopoly on wealth and on security (distributing risk towards the poor).

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Agree with the fact that risk needs to be spread out and we need to be accountable to the environment.

But most monopolies are actually caused by the government. Local utilities like gas and electric are a prime example of this for a lot of different reasons.

Monopolies also have to do with markets so you can't really have a monopoly on wealth. You can have a lot of it, but monopoly is the correct terminology.

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

You are thinking of monopoly relative to entities in the economic market - but monopoly operates through wealth relative to others who are poorer. A wealth person can minimise the risks to their offspring of 'poverty' and 'poor health' by sending them to good schools and good doctors. In that way, wealthy people are monopolising the use of better services, even if the service itself is not a monopoly in the market of tradeable entities.

You see, this freedom of the rich to monopolise the best services is not itself a tradeable entity (who would trade a better service for a poorer one?), and so that monopoly remains hidden in terms marketable entities, but is nevertheless a distortion of 'transactions' in the social sphere of human life.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Consumers simply can't have a monopoly. The term only is used for producers. Rich people do those things for the reasons you say but the key is the plural tense of person you use. Monopoly = mono = 1 =/= many

As for the last paragraph, see above.

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

FuzzyP

  • "The term only is used for producers."

Exactly, that was my point. Market thinking only takes certain kinds of transactions into account, thus hiding half of the social reality, about distributions of power and how they are maintained. If monopolies distort natural evolution of an economy, as most would agree, then it's as valid when thinking about consumption as it is about production.

Having said that, the problem now is that rich/richer people are not spending, and that's causing problems for the whole economy. But it's not about buying-a-new-television kind of spending, that people would say is sensible in a downturn, it's the pulling investment out of companies and putting it in 'gold' so as to protect the market value of that investment. In other words, it's jumping ship when things get rocky, and taking the bilge pumps with them when they do.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Nobody's spending, not just the rich.

The market does take into things you are talking about, it's just that you're not defining it correctly.

Monopolies are single firms that are the only provider in the market. Rich people have purchasing power that poor people do not and can more greatly influence the economy but they are not a monopoly.

Monopoly just doesn't apply to the consumer side of the transaction. It's just in the definition. Your usage of monopoly is just wrong. There is literally no ambiguity in this.

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

I understand what you are saying, but respectfully, wrong terminology use or not, my point is still valid. The bugbear of a free market is a monopoly - agree? Why, because it means that prices can be fixed artificially high, or alternatively, supply can be artificially restricted to maintain a high price. These monopolies are bad for consumers, who end up paying more than they should for e.g. basic commodities. Held to ransom comes to mind. But there are additional sides to this idea of monopoly, operating in other areas of the economy, that are just as important to look at. The monopoly I'm talking about is the monopoly of opportunity and the monopoly of services. Yes, I'm not talking about a monopoly on production, but of consumption. Funny how it doesn't get mentioned - I wonder why?

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Because in order for there to be a monopoly on wealth, only one person could effectively hold any wealth and everybody else would have have a total worth of $0. That's not anywhere near the case. You simply can't have a monopoly on wealth unless its a monarchy.

Monopolies can't just price wherever they want either. They still have to abide by laws of demand so they can price themselves out of the market too. The problem with monopolies is that they're inefficient.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

why would the oil and coal industries allow us to switch to alternative energies? why? and by the way, Americans don't need the market to be innovative. and, its not all about technology. social advancement is far more important. and your "money talks and bullshit walks" statement shows that we desperately need social advancement.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

There are two separate continuum in the political spectrum. The first is economic, which ranges from Free Market to Communist. The second is the social spectrum, which ranges from Authoritarian to Anarchy. These continuua intersect where centrism is located.

You're mixing the two together where there is a clear dichotomy present. Social freedom and advancement have little to do with money, from a policy standpoint. Social advancement deals with gay marriage, abortion and minority rights. Economic policy deals with regulation and market structure. These are vastly different areas that intersect in the political arena to form a plethora of different political identities.

You're correct, oil and coal would not help us switch to green energy, a very astute observation that none other than a baboon's ass could make. If the price of a substitute of a good is lower, consumers will switch and buy the product with the lower price.

Oil and coal have a lot of power in Washington but all markets abide by the laws of supply and demand.

You're statement that we need social development over economic development is your point of view, opinion and belief. There should not be a reason that you get in the way of my pursuit of money or economic freedom because you believe your views are more important than mine. By all means, work towards social advancement, I fully encourage you because it's your right to do so. But don't mix up what a social issue is and what an economic issue is.

"Money talks, bullshit walks" will always be true as long as there is scarcity. Just thought you should know.

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

Fuzzyp

  • "we need social development over economic development"

I think the best thing is to recognize that social development and economic development go hand in hand. In the US now, many people go bankrupt because they get ill. That's not a system that is working. After all, people are going to get ill, its often not the fault of the individual.

Likewise, healthy and happy people are a resource, an economic resource. You cannot separate 'social' and 'economic' values out like that. The advancement of both, side by side, with policies that take account of the impact of one on the other, is what is best.

As for 'always true as long as there is scarcity', I am inclined to agree with a large part of that argument. The problem is that the 'scarcity' is often manufactured. At the moment, it is more than possible to provide the basic securities of life, without turning 'security' into something mortgaged in such a way that you are paying your whole life or hoping never to get ill for fear of losing it all.

It's about relationships. In the past, you had a hundred people working on your estate, living in cottages, while the Lord of the Manor lived in the big house on the hill and lived off the labours of others. The same situation exists today, but the relationship between the Lord of the Manor and the worker is much more hidden and subtle.

Do we need overlords? Well, they will always say they are benefiting us all in some way (rising tides and rising boats and all that), but fact of the matter is that people feel that in this world, we are smart enough to figure out a way to keep everyone in a home and with food in their bellies and clothes on their back and some meaningful work to do. The problem is, people don't have that security any more, and its all the more surprising when you look at the vast riches and domination of wealth/security/decision-making of a relatively small number of people. People quite naturally start to hate that Lord, who has mortgaged everything and set it up in such a way that if their leeching fails, then its the poor folk that will suffer first.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Social and economic development definitely go hand in hand but from a policy point, they're separate. Levying a tax is economics and has nothing to do with women's rights. The people that think Gay Marriage will cause another depression are idiots for the same reason.

Scarcity is defined by "not enough to fill our wants". It has nothing to do with needs. Scarcity isn't really manufactured since you can't make someone want something even though you can encourage them.

Your argument on security is not one that everybody believes in. It's something you value but not something everyone else does. It also depends on what you mean by security (either social/ economic or both). Social security is one thing but economic security is another.

If you get ill, you should be taken care of. But being guaranteed a certain level of income because you have a pulse is just as wrong as throwing people out on the street.

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

Fuzzyp

-"Levying a tax is economics and has nothing to do with women's rights".

Not entirely true. Facilitating women entering the workplace increases the number of tax payers.'

Also, I'm not sure that people are protesting because they necessarily feel poor, but rather the don't like the kind of world we are living in, where social values are subverted to economic ones, and where economics benefits a relative few much more relative to the majority.

  • "It has nothing to do with needs."

I agree. But it's a problem nonetheless. We often will buy things we don't need but want, creating a huge swathe of useless economy (what I call the Madonna Doll Economy), which though benefiting all those that partake of that economy, nevertheless produces something that adds real value in terms of end product. Compare this to the shortages of educators, health care workers, etc., and you realise that half the economy is awash with money put to doing work that produces fairly low-value end products, while the other half of the economy, which is producing something of real value, is struggling to get funding. Changing economics is ultimately about getting people doing useless work to doing worthwhile work. You think the market decides what is 'useless'? I don't agree, I think the market decides about what can be marketed as of value, but has very little to do with real value.

How can you avoid that without getting all Draconian? Teach people responsible consumption, responsible production. Then we will all benefit. We have to buy into a better system.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Indroducing a tax has nothing to do with social legislation even if social legislaton allows more taxpayers.

The point of the economy is for people to make their decisions themselves. Feel free to educate about smart choices but don't expect that to be a lastting model.

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

What I'm suggesting is more an attitude than a model, though the model that comes from it is one that recognises the excesses of production and consumption.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

I realize that. And something like this isn't going to be legislated so feel free to tell people how evil wal mart is but don't expect the government to do much about it.

Excess makes things cheaper, to an extent. Cheaper things help raise the standard of living.

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

The economy is in a hell of a mess. Almost a quarter of households are in the complete shit, with barely enough income to service their debts and the threat of redundancy a nightmare waiting to happen. How do they get in such a mess? It's all too easy. Not only that, but the growth of the economy and the 'wealth creation' of the good times is prefaced on it. What makes it difficult to swallow is that a financial disaster comes out of nowhere, and it's basically the fault of financial institutions playing games with risk, hiding that risk to make a buck. It's not just households that have been messing up their finances.

Being poor doesn't just mean you lack wealth, but also that you carry more risk, risk of redundancy, risk of default, risk of ill health, risk of substance abuse, risk of marginalisation. All the while, the financial sector has effectively shifted the massive risks of a credit-driven growth economy such that no-one knew just how precarious the whole thing was. When the bubble burst, they got bailed out, because the repercussions of not bailing them out would have been even more catastrophic - but whichever way you slice it, the ordinary Joe is picking up their tab. And they are the wealthy ones. And politicians have been utterly handcuffed to do anything about it. And if anyone suggests for just one second that the rich pay a little more, the outcry is heard from here to Timbuktu! "We won't be competitive if we raise taxes!". So that's it, globalisation means that rich people, through their mobility, have effectively evaded any kind of responsibility, even though they've typically grown rich off the credit-driven economy in the first place.

I'm not surprised people are fed up with market economics.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

The problem is the government, not market economics. They've made it so that things like this could happen.

I don't understand why you can be mad at the market and capitalism and use TARP as an example but not be mad at the government.

Increasing taxes on businesses would make us less competitive but not income taxes.

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

Well, I'm not directing my anger at the markets per se or capitalism. The market has prooved useful, but it lacks proper regulation. Also, the idea of what the market is and what it does is completely shrouded in spin. No surprise really, as marketing spin is a tool of the trade, and so putting this positive spin on the market to hide its excesses is no surprise.

Let's see it clearly for a moment. The market is an opportunity for individuals to exploit the talents, expertise and labour of other individuals in order to make money - everything else is secondary to that, i.e. products and services or even supply and demand. Note: secondary, but not unimportant.

Next, the hardest thing to sort out in any system of exchange is 'the value of things'. Intrinsic value, while intuitively easy to grasp—a doctor saving lives provides more value to society than someone making bumper stickers—is very hard to quantify in any ultimate sense. So, we replace the instrinsic value of labour, products and services with marketable value. If you can get someone to buy it, then it has value.

Now the problem starts then because there are things we value as taxpayers, such as health, education, law enforcement, infrastructure, community services etc. However, by putting these things in the free market, the intrinsic value of those things has to go up against the marketable value. Now a doctor has a very high intrinsic value, and because they save lives, also a very high marketable value (skills are scare). However, a kindergarten/school teachers also has a very high intrinsic value (society wouldn't function if we all had to stay home and look after/educate the kids) but not a very high marketable value (skills are more common). This is one example of how marketable values start to undermine intrinsic social values.

Next, I've said this on another thread, but it's worth repeating. Isn't it funny how the decision-makers have decided that the most valuable (in terms of remuneration) job is, wait for it, decision-making! Do you feel you are being taken for a ride here? The guy in charge of the cooky jar decides that his job is more important than everyone elses and so gets a bigger helping! A fucking joke, mate, and we all fall for it because of spin about the market and it's value to society.

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

I think you miss the point, Fuzzyp. When large companies do very well, through the hard work of all the employees, the managers award themselves massive payrises and bonuses, year in year out. That's extracted before a dividend is paid. And yes, they can do it and do do it. Top level management pay increased 38% in the UK last year, at a time when everyone else is wondering whether the next pay rise will come in 5 or 10 years!

I notice you said 'purely exploits', which I suppose means you are making room for some exploitation. Cannot happen in the long run? You mean, that someone else will offer more for that person's talents because they are so profitable? That's not how it works in the real world, FuzzP. People's talents are not visible in a shop window in the way that products are. When you recruit, generally you get a very small sample of the 'available' pool. And workers do not simply 'go elsewhere'; there are all sorts of constraints on workers, such as being tied to a locale.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

In a free market, you can't just decide that you're worth more than everybody else. You'll go out of business. That stuff happens because of government as well as in government jobs.

A market that purely exploits talents and makes people work less than the markets equilibrium isn't something that can actually happen in the long run. 1) There will be a shortage of people working in that job because workers will go elsewhere and 2) the market will reset because of inefficiencies. Competition is the key...it keeps businesses honest.

Social jobs shouldn't be outsourced to the market because they would be cut during recessions. It would be bad to cut police, doctors and firefighters during recessions.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

oh, I know. I've lived under this slavery all my life. you talk of the status quo, the way things are. things are going to change. just thought you should know.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Things will always change. I'm just as aware as that as the next person.

In a free market, things are always changing because its a dynamic system. Always new blood and ideas. Out with the old, in with the new. Constant and rapid change to increase efficiency.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

this will be a fundamental change. and it will happen across the globe. you really don't understand what this is about do you?

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

I do understand fully what it is about. But I think it will fail. Any effects it may have will be minor at best.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

I think you are wrong. when the protesters go home after the day (if they have one), they go home to the same shitty situation that they are protesting about. and until that changes, the motivation to protest will only grow as more and more people realize that the only change that is going to happen will be on the streets and be done by them. not by congress and not by corporations who like it just fine the way it is. no, its not going away and the impact will be revolutionary. the world as we know it is going to change.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Change only happens in the street if bullets are being fired in them these days. You either change the system from within or you tear it down from the outside and start new.

Your choice. Standing outside with a bullhorn won't fix anything. You need action.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

you are wrong and you are not part of the occupy movement. you are trying to incite, but, it won't work.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Oh my fucking god, I've been outed. Just because I'm not a part of ows doesn't mean I'm wrong. I actually have a grasp of how things are handled in the political arena. Sorry you don't understand what will actually cause change.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

ha ha ha, its not a "what" its a "who". The American people will change things. And the occupy movement is how.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

"Who" still has to accomplish a "what" in the political arena to get things done.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

right, money talks and bullshit walks. those with money control and those with no money are bullshit. this is the system that needs to be replaced. the people need to make the economic decisions, not the market and definitely not the corporations

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

People do make economic decisions, its called buying. And corporations are made of people.

The market is a very natural system. It reaches equilibria the same way chemical reactions will. It doesn't make decisions but rather describes an agreement on a price between buyer and seller. It operates on the assumption that everybody acts on their own self interest and is therefore predictable.

The free market is all about people making decisions; that's the best argument for pro capitalists.

In a free market, I can do whatever I want with whatever resources I need. Under socialism, the collective people tell me what to do. Under communism, a small group of party members tell me what to do.

[-] 1 points by Helsinki (34) 12 years ago

As a biologist, I will tell you that the market is not a 'natural' system at all. No way! Ignorance you have, of living systems, where the principle of co-operation is much much much more important to the organism than the principle of competition. Competition operates in scenarios of scarce resources and plays an important part. But all innovations in biological terms come about because of several elements within a system working in a mutually beneficial way, i.e. co-operatively.

In fact, the only natural analogy you would find for corporate greed is that of a virus, that utilises as much of the resources of a system (organism) for its own ends as possible, preferably without killing the host before its had a chance to travel to the next host.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

thanks for the post. great analogy

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Its a good thing I'm learning about economics from a biologist.

The free market reacts to external events through pricing. This happens automatically. In other words, naturally. I'm not using the word natural in the sense of organic matter. I even used the example of a chemical reaction to highlight this and it was actually a fine analogy. The reason this phenomena is a "natural" one is because it is all about human interaction. That's why economics is called a social science.

The virus analogy is good to an extent but a virus is not alive like a human is and it has no knowledge of scarcity or opportunity cost. It has one thing to do, replicate. The free market gives you options and from them, you can make decisions. You can decide to find a way to not kill the planet while making money. Actually, it can be incentivized.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

the market is not about people making economic decisions. and, you are correct, in a free market, you can do whatever you want with whatever resources you want. regardless of the impact to those around you or to your nation. THAT'S the problem. and, why do you speak of communism. that's just another form of fascism where the people have no voice in making economic decisions.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Taxes on externalities help to reduce impact and promote accountability.

Communism is definitely not anywhere near facism. In fact, they're polar opposites economically speaking.

Who do you think makes economic decisions then that is not a person? Is it some sort of robot conspiracy.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

ha! no, you know very well who makes the economic decisions. corporations do, the board of directors who then tell the politicians what to do. obviously, you are ignorant on both economic systems. in communism, an elite make the economic decisions. same with capitalism.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Corporations are still made up of people. The free market is about people deciding And who told you to be online arguing with me? I know there wasn't a corporation that told me to come here and argue with the dumbshits on this forum all night long. Half of the threads on this forum can be answered with things I learned the first day of class in Econ 101.

Corporations don't automatically control politicians. I can literally start a corporation over the next month and sell stock on my campus and guess what, I won't have control over shit.

In communism, decisions are made by elites called party members. In capitalism, everyone makes decisions.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

oh, I see, so, the occupy movement is just confused. its not the poor corporations that are the problem (TARP?). in our present system, the 99% voice of the American people do not decide economic decisions. corporations do and they do it through manipulation of the market and by controlling our government. this is a fact. that's why we're here.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

Not all of it is a fact. A corporation is just a firm that has stockholders. Not all of them are traded on the NYSE and not all of them have their hands in government dealings. TARP and other bailouts I disagree with as well. I'm not defending bank of america, I'm saying you are making dipshit and idealogical blanket statements that are not true of all corporations.

And if 99% of the american people don't make economic decisions, my penis is a vagina. If you've have bought or even refused to buy something lately, you have made an economic decision. Congratulations, welcome to the club.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

I see, so, I'm responsible for the economic collapse. I'm responsible for shipping jobs overseas. I'm responsible for the 9% unemployment.

[-] 0 points by fuzzyp (302) 12 years ago

You are one of many. The american economy doesn't consits of bank of america,wall mart and you. Everybody makes economic decisions. Don't be a dumb fuck and learn something about how the economy works from someone other than the people on the street who are poor precisely because they don't know this stuff