Forum Post: Feeding homeless @ OWS - a test in socialism
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 29, 2011, 10:16 a.m. EST by armchairecon1
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what a wonderful excercise in the limitations of socialism...
its not that socialism can't work, it is that there is a limit to resources. if you want everyone to have something, you must spread it thinner
another look at it is, after experiencing the boom in middle class driving the economy, globalism (ie: giving everyone else in the world a chance at a middle class lifestyle) has taken from our middle class to distribute among the rest of the world, lower our standards of living.
there is a limited amount of resources in this world and there are (about to be) 7 billion people. if you want everyone to have a fair shot, dont complain when you are asked to contribute.
Hummm, I wonder where all of these hungry homeless people are coming from? Couldn't be hired by the corporations and politicians that the OWS are standing up against, could they? Don't believe everything you hear or see on television. Remember the national media (all of it) is OWNED by big business.
I have no doubt about media being owned by big business..
but you are giving corporations and politicians too much credit in thinking they could/would pay homeless to stand in line for food. corporations and politicians are busy trying to capitalize on OWS..
NY landlords who want to evict their tenants because they want to sell the property or because they have many rent-controlled units have been known to hire thugs & addicts to live on the property and harass the tenants so that they'll decide to move on their own.
I don't think the hiring of "difficult" people to swarm to Zuccotti is outside the realm of possibility.
Some were claiming the police herded them there or told them "take it zuccotti" after they were caught drinking.
That said, apparently cops have been picking up homeless people who are getting drunk and rowdy in other parks and telling them to take it to Zuccotti Park. I don't know whether this is an actual strategy on the part of NYPD brass (I doubt it) or just a "let's get all the bums in one place" mentality, but apparently it's been going on for a little while.
While they might want to capitalize on OWS they also want to control it. Bad press in this county is worth a lot and any CEO knows it.
Im sure they do. they could control it alot easier and cheaper than having to pay off homeless people to stand in line and have it backfire when one of them tells the story to the 'other' media
with a leaderless movement, all they need to do is infiltrate the movement to coopt it.
Nope, they would hire ringers that they controlled 100% - bought and paid for. No media worries. Just the press that the opposition wanted.
Interesting post.
Honest question from me: Is it really true that living standards have risen dramatically in other parts of the world since globalization?
I am honestly not aware to what extent the workers in factories are actually lifted out of poverty. I know in some countries these jobs for pennies an hour make the difference between being fed & being hungry and of course that matters & that's important.
But what about China? the workers there seem to be treated very poorly and are not paid well...
And what about other countries? India? I've heard that companies move in, work the people for a year or 2 or 3 and then move on once workers are comfortable and start expecting higher wages or better conditions.
I'm not asking this to debate the issue, I am asking because my knowledge is really sketchy on this & I'd like honest input. Thanks.
Its all relative. These people may be 'treated poorly' and 'not paid well', but that is relative to our expectations. Also a VAST improvement from they have had in the past few decades.. which is chronic underemployment/unemployment.
In china (i have friends/relatives who are both factory workers and factory owners), the middle class have about teh same standard of living as us in the US (yea, believe it or not), with teh same granite countertops, BMWs, toyotas, hondas, and stainless steel appliances.
Given, most factory workers aren't living to this level of luxury.. wages are rising so fast that many people change jobs every 3-4 months depending on who is paying the highest (raises for peopl who have been there for a while can be in the magnitude of 20-30%!). Obviously this is not sustainable.. and when wages rise to a certain level, manufacturers will seek out the next country with low labor costs (south east asia, africa)... then the middle class will suffer becaues they will become use to this standard of living, costs rise (did you know even in medium/smal cities, real estate prices rival those of medium sized cities in the US?), but when the jobs leave, costs dont go down that much.. kind of like what is going on in the US.
But on the other hand, people in say SEA or africa, who haev only known poverty and underemployment will now gain the benefit of knowing what the middle class feels like.
Obviously this is not all without its detriments.. in a new labor market, workers will be exploited... because the labor laws aren't there yet.. but in a capitalistic society, money talks.. in China, factory owners were forced to increased benefits/wages/working conditions because workers had the flexibility to move on to the next best thing. (having visited several factories in a small/medium sized city, the working conditions are pretty good.. conditions (cleanliness/safety) looked the same or better than the garment factories in the US that i visited in the early 90s in NYC.. i havent visited a factory in the US since then, so i dont know how things are now).
Also I have friends who own companies in india.. while I haven't visited myself, he also tells me about how corporate outsourcing etc. has benefited those in india via improved standard of living.. observations that were similar when compared to what I saw in china.
This is all not to say that everyone in these countries is benefiting.. they're not. Those in the rural/undeveloped areas are still underemployed and living in poverty... but as a whole, there are millions of people who are living better now than they did even 10 years ago. (btw. my relatives in china are looking to stay in china, and not move to the US.. if that means anything)
Thanks for your perspective on this.
How will denying oneself prosperity give someone in another part of the world a chance at a middle class lifestyle? If we are that middle class and we lower our standards, then do we fall below the middle class marker? Will that person on the other side of the world cut back because he took too much? What if that other person on the other side of the world becomes middle class, because of what was taken from us and given to him, and decides not to work to maintain his middle class status; do we need to spread our stuff even thiner and keep giving so he can?
see the post above (link in case it gets lost: http://occupywallst.org/forum/feeding-homeless-ows-a-test-in-socialism/#comment-255327)
its not denying yourself prosperity (in reality, you have no say in the matter.. the only thing you can do is learn a marketable skill that will not be outsourced).. but in the world of globalism/outsourcing, jobs that leave mean that someone else in the world is benefiting. (not saying it doesnt suck to be part of the middle class and see your jobs evaporate and yoru standards of living go down)
from an economic stand point, i for each 1$ that left the US becuse of a job, the decrease in standard of living is much less than the benefit gained by whichever developing country received that 1$. (ie: that 1$ buys alot less in the US than the same 1$ would buy in the new country)..
not making any political statement, but globalism is here to stay. What our middle class is facing today, is going to be faced by the middle class of india, china in 10-15 yrs (maybe sooner) as these jobs move to africa and south america
I believe we can make a smooth transition to RBE but for the time being I'll help any way I can. I'm not clear on your post. Are disagreeing or agreeing on feeding the homeless?
The best way to predict the future is to invent it - Resource Based Economy
the same argument exists.. limited resources = spread thinner
if there is no correlation in the amount you are paid vs. the amount you work, it would be a race to the bottom in terms of productivity (ie: union work rules limiting productivity)
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people need to stop posting videos.
am i the only one that hates outlinking videos?
just post what you want to say