Forum Post: Fairness is the Critical "Glue" of Society
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 1, 2011, 9:29 p.m. EST by AmericanRedWhiteBlue
(126)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Please read to the end.
B.F. Skinner missed one of the essential determiners of human behavior: Fairness.
From a Purely Behavioral Scientific Perspective, there exists Positive Reinforcement, Negative Reinforcement (aversive stimulus), Positive Punishment and Negative Punishment.
Additionally, peer reviewed, replicated research (based on the Ultimatum Game and its variants) over the past decade, has shown that, in humans, people will harm themselves, in order to "Punish" someone else who is behaving unfairly. This behavior does not fit in the traditional behavioral paradigm of reinforcement and punishment.
If you are interested in ths research, just pick up one of the following books:
Secrets of the Money Lab, by Kay-Yut Chen (He's A Behavioral Economist)
Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely (He's Behavioral Economist)
Social Intelligence, Daniel Goleman (He's Harvard Educated Behavioral Scientist---and Author of Emotional Intelligence)
The Blame Game, Ben Dattner--see "Tit-For-Tat Strategy" (He's an Adjunct Psychology Professor at NYU.)
Within each of us is the desire to individually succeed, the desire to be treated fairly, as well as treat others fairly (Except in Psychopaths and sociopaths who---simply put---only think of themselves and treat others as objects to be exploited (sound like any familiar folks---maybe the Wall Street Oligarchs?)
Anyone that thinks Fairness is a joke, or Fairness doesn't exist, simply has not done their research. Why do you think there are the "Scales" of justice?
We live in a society. When individuals in society feel that they are being treated unfairly, then they react to their poor treatment (as they should!!!)
Wall Street and it's Shills fail to understand what is happening, because they don't feel as though they are being treated unfairly, they are happy that they are not being held accountable for their reckless behavior (in this current government behavioral paradigm.) The Corporate Oligarchs and their goverment shills will fight hard to keep this paradigm because it benefits them (but we must continue to make them hear our voices---and we must CREATE a PARADIGM SHIFT.)
Currently the corporation/government relationships are like the following:
It is as though some lab rats (wall street corporations) are bribing the lab scientists (Government), in order for the scientists to look the other way--- as the rats exploit the mice, and as the rats steal cheese!!!
All these Rat/Scientist shenanigans are at the expense of the Mice!!! Many Mice are jobless (they are unable to participate in lab behavioral experiments for food) and the remaining working mice are forced to work harder and harder for less and less cheese, as the jobless mice are evicted from their cages!!! ---Not to mention that there is outsourcing of experiments to other labs, where the mice are treated worse (shocked with electricity.)
Feel free to share the above analogy!!!
This Corporate/Government can't continue! Occupy Wall Street will continue, even without a leader, because all us mice are being unfairly treated, and exploited!!! We don't need a leader to tell us we feel unfairly treated---just like we don't need a leader to tell us that getting hit with a stick hurts, or a gentle hug from a loved one feels good!!!
The Wall Street Rats need to realize that fairness/justice is relative to society. We mice sympathize with folks in mud huts around the world, but we feel treated unfairly when we see the Corporate Oligarchs getting bailed out by the government, as our American dream of opportunity slips away--- and even as old ladies are evicted from their homes!!!
Any government needs to create laws which give all its citizens a fair opportunity to succeed. If it fails to do so, sooner or later folks will feel so mistreated that they will make their voices unignorable!!!
for additional information on the mind, see the below outstanding video (from a Psychiatrist):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI
The Doctor's Website:
http://www.iainmcgilchrist.com/
Great Job Occupy Wall Street!!!
This country was founded on principals of justice and fairness. I can't believe those who flaunt themselves as some species of "better" or "realer" American scoff at fairness & justice.
The whole society's been turned on its head.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Right On!
The fairest system is the one that doesn't have to enforce its 'fairness'.
Care to provide an example?
Fairness is subjective and in a competitive system it is easily manipulated to promote inequality. For example the classic belief held that "an eye for an eye" is just.
Violence: the delusion of justice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FG2JLn1gJk
True justice is about bringing harmony to the system. The only way to do that is to follow natural laws rather than man-made ones. In otherwords a scientific systems approach should determine how to resolve issues, not brute force.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=e66jQ-pZYnc#t=189s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWYovDRt8tI&feature=relmfu
A Resource Based Economy: http://thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project/resource-based-economy
Occupy Wall Street will succeed exactly because it has no leader. If there is a leader, there will be concentration of power. Concentration of power will then lead to corruption and corruption will end the movement. By keeping the movement democratic, the power of the people will lead the movement to succeed.
The above is true in the western, modern paradigm that AmericanRedWhiteBlue describes, but the behaviors, all of them, largely deal with our unconscious human existence and all of the many compulsions we have naturally.----
Fairness is a properly positioned piece of cognitive basis justifying harmony between many unconscious existences. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.------
Now, asserting OWS is uncorruptable because it has no leaders, ignores the fact that it is unaccountable to having strategy, developing it, or the authority it might gain, which is effective at manifesting the fairness they demand.------
Do you really mean to say that ows is okay because it has uncorruptable incompetent strategy? No, I don't think so. In that case, explain to them there is only one action that will work now and that is called ARTICLE V (5) of the US constitution.
[Deleted]
Perhaps you've not sure of that. I am but OWS has no coherent voice with strategy to test.
Most importantly is that natural law, as in constitution, is the peoples tool to make themselves constitutional. Equity must be preserved. It's seriously imperiled and has been.
In what way do you feel life is unfair ?
We have (finally) elected a black man to President, and the poll leader in the REPUBLICAN primary is also a black man (who'da thunk it !). Women now run some of the largest in America like HP and IBM, and they occupy positions of power in Congress, the Cabinet, and the Supreme Court.
We have story after story of ordinary people becoming wealthy, and the census statistics indicate we Americans enjoy a remarkable level of affluence, particularly relative to the vast majority of the world's population. See my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/inconvenient-truths-america/ .
We have suffered a set back largely of our own making. Blame it on our irresponsible borrowing, our lustful spending, our greed, or our inability to elect leaders with the true interests of the Nation at heart. Blame us. In a Democracy, we get the Government we deserve. Capitalism is economic Democracy and we voted for the companies we have today by purchasing their products.
Ask the people of the Congo, the Afghan women trying to emerge from Talibani oppression, or the people of Syria how "fair" America is. People are dying in the hopes they can get just a fraction of the fairness you enjoy by simple right of birth in America. If you REALLY want to help someone, help the THEM.
We mice sympathize with folks in mud huts around the world, but we feel treated unfairly when we see the Corporate Oligarchs getting bailed out by the government, as our American dream of opportunity slips away--- and as old ladies are evicted from their homes!!!
The American Dream is far from dead, we bailed-out to save OUR ASSES, and your use of "granny" to represent the greedy legions hoping to "Flip That House" for a quick buck is specious. Stop whining about how "unfair" your life is and move to the Congo.
If corporations are too big to fail then they are too big <period> and need to be broke apart because they are a threat to the national interests of the United States.
I love grannys <we would not exist without them> and will defend them forever.
I love my country, will continue to stay here, and shout for fairness. I see no reason to hand the United States over to a bunch of greedy wall street sociopaths (despite your objections to the contrary.) If you hate fairness, then YOU leave...
Continue with your Ad Hominem-ish trolling....people know, people feel, the truth of unfairness in our current corporate/government paradigm, irrespective of your shill-ing.
Why don't you put a corporate logo next to you name, in order to make you allegiance more obvious...
Are you familiar with the Savings and Loan crisis ? These were not "big" institutions, and they were "not-for-profit" institutions working for the "common man." You can say "too big to fail" or you can say "to many failing." Both lead to the same outcome of government stepping in to keep the problem from leading to another Depression. You ARE familiar with what happened in the Great Depression thanks to Hoover's insistence on letting banks fail, right?
Defend grannies all you want, but according to the 2010 census, it is not older folks who were losing their homes, so your exploitation of "grannies" in a specious argument is unfounded. If you actually check your facts, you'll find that over 20% of Americans own their homes free-and-clear, and these are generally the older folks who have paid off their mortgages.
You and yours ALREADY handed the country over to Wall Street and their ilk. You borrowed literally trillions from them, and they got rich. You then SPENT those trillions buying foreign goods and lost your jobs. Nobody MADE you borrow money or buy foreign goods, you DECIDED to do so and now you're whining about the consequences.
Corporations, by the way, are how we "little people" get to become capitalists and share in all those corporate profits. Corporations are owned by the shareholders, and the vast majority of shareholders are average people who hold the shares in the 401K, 403b, IRA, and eTrade (et al) accounts. You and yours, for example, have allowed me, an average guy, to make over $200,000 over the past four years because you buy Apple products.
I would proudly wear a corporate logo if I had one. Corporations are how a group of "little people" are able to pool their money to start a company capable of competing with the established "big guys" with all reaping the benefits of their investment. Without corporations, we "little people" would have no reasonable path to joing the system and reap the wealth available from a good idea.
Grandmother getting evicted (even one is too many):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/04/foreclosure-grandma-_n_844348.html
Rico said: You and yours ALREADY handed the country over to Wall Street and their ilk. My response to Rico: I never handed our great country to wallstreet willingly---but even so, it's time to take our country back from those crooks, by making them hear our voices!!!
<By the way I have a good job, but I believe it's my duty to help give my country back to the citizens, as well as assist the less fortunate...unlike some mean-spirited sociopaths who kick people when they are vulnerable...shame on you!!!.>
Spare me with your corporate "little people" rhetoric. Just "yahoo finance" any company and see the shareholders with the largest number of common shares, those shareholders run the company, not the "little people." The "little people" don't even own enough to have a minority interest.
For example, If American G.E. employees (overall some pretty smart folks), were able to vote as a minority interest "block", do you seriously think that GE would be laying off folks in America and hiring them in China (unless the employees were complete idiots (which they are not.)? G.E. like most corporations gives out stock to employees thru a mutual fund of the Board's choosing, precisely so they can control the employees "Minority interest." Employees, in order to diversify financial risk, tend not to buy additional GE Stock.
Rico, I have never owned Apple...
Continue to shill for corporations, while you sell out your country....
Do you check whether the companies you support with your purchases pollute, pay a living wage, etc? How many products do you own that say "Made in the USA" ? Have you ever borrowed money? It's WE who decided what companies, banks, and politicians would be successful, not some mysterious "they," and the right way to fix the problem is to change our behaviors, not try and steal back what we willingly gave.
As for voting rights, if you actually held any stock, you'd know the power of proxy voting. Everyone I know has several hundred thousands worth of stock in their 401k accounts. There are literally 10's of trillions in these accounts nationwide. These are the people you hate so much.
By the way, insofar as Americans make ALL their buying decisions based on cost alone, then YES, I and my fellow shareholders would send the jobs overseas if that's what it will take to stay in business. People complaining about jobs going overseas should do a self-check on just how many American made products they own. Companies don't LIKE sending business overseas; it's complicated and they KNOW it's hurting people, but if folks won't buy their products because they cost more than one from China, what choice do they have ?
Continue to whine while you destroy your country.....
You continue arguing for capitalism all you want, if what you say about you is true, then you have no reason to change (this system is working for you)...you care more about money than you care about people in society...and that is the core problem.
Us 99% are being treated unjustly. Old ladies are evicted from their homes. And you laugh at us. That's your right. We 99% have rights too (we live in a Democratic Republic and are exercising our rights.)
I argue supporting fairness. Fairness in the form of an equal opportunity of success for ALL. I believe we all deserve the same opportunity to succeed. This opportunity does not exist in our crony capitalist, corporate oligarch dominated world.
As more people feel more and more injustice, they will protest. Folks like you guys don't understand that. You say "but we are winning. We like this loose capitalist system. Those 99% folks are just a bunch of losers." Go "Pat yourself on the back" someplace else.
Sooner or later you will be a loser like us 99%, because richer, more powerful folks will take your money. The crooks will say "Rico is an idiot. He deserves what he got. We really swindled him good." I'll keep a space on the ground open and warm for you brother.
Capitalism is just a subsystem within our social fabric. Capitalism is secondary to our social system. As the people in our society suffer more and more, due to a more and more laissez-fair capitalistic system they will proudly "whine", they will proudly complain, they will proudly protest the injustice they feel.
It's my belief that Lassez Faire Capitalism leads to unchecked monopolies and rampant corporate abuse (heck, look what deregulation has lead to so far. Imagine a fully unregulated capitalistic system (the horror.))
When americans have little money because they have no jobs (the jobs were exported to make you guys rich), then cost is a prime motivator for them (but people still buy Apple computers.)
Give me one example where proxy voting forced a company to keep jobs in the U.S.
In a Democracy, we get precisely the government WE vote for. In Capitalism, we get precisely the companies from which WE buy Banks make money when WE borrow it from them
The 99% have had ALL the power for a very long time. Look what they have done with it.
Rico wrote- The 99% have had ALL the power for a very long time. Look what they have done with it
Here's a solid TED video you may want to check out. It provides scientific data that may be of interest (although it "flies in the face" of your statement):
http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2011-10-25&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email
OK, I like TED and I'll watch your link.
Please do me the courtesy of reading my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-percenter-ready-to-join-if/ and my proposal at http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-the-people-in-order-to-a-proposal/ before you decide I'm a troll. You might also be interested in my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/
By the way, while we're on the subject of Trolls, You might get a chuckle out of my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-mordor-because-one-ring-should-not-rule-the/ It turns out the Dwarfs might actually be Trolls, and Saruman is up to no good !
Looks like you prefer to "hedge" your bets, or like philosophically playing "Devil's Advocate", or you are working through some internal cognitive dissonance...In any case, best of luck to you.
[Removed]
Thanks
So how did societies ever hold together when there has never in the history of the world been a fair society?
Has any society stood the test of time?
Yes the aboriginies in Australia.
Aborigines stood the test of time? If any of them could read they wouldn't like that post.....
How well are the Australian Aboriginies doing these days? Are they a world power (in and of themselves)?
So well that you aren't allowed to call them aborigines as the the term is now offensive. They are indigenous Australians.
None of the world powers became powerful by being fair.
No world power has stood the test of time.
You argue against this innate human societal concept of "fair." Why? Do you exploit others and, in order to avoid cognitive dissonance, just tell yourself that fairness does not exist, so you are allowed to engage in said behavior (lots of crooked sales folks do this?) Or do you just disagree with "fair/justice" for purely philosophical reasons? Have you ever perceived that you were treated unfairly? Do you know what it means to be treated unfairly? (These are serious questions.)
Have you ever perceived that you were treated unfairly? Do you know what it means to be treated unfairly? Sure. I make about 26k a year, though I don't think of this as "unfair". I don't argue against fairness, it's a great thing, I argue that unfairness is impossible to eradicate. Human nature is inherently unfair and selfish, and even if it weren't, there would not be fairness. Imagine a world where everyone makes the same salary. Who is going to clean the streets and who gets to pick coconuts? Surely one job is "better" than the other, that's why it pays less, to make them balance each other out. But natural disasters happen, if someone gets hit by lightning, is it fair? Not really. But it's even less fair to hurt the people around him by making them pay for his medical expenses.
Not try to eradicate unfairness is like not trying to eradicate Hate and evil. We must try to eradicate unfairness!!! Hate and evil are impossible to eradicate, but thank God the Allies stopped Hitler and the Nazis from perpetuating both Hate and Evil! Thank God we continue to try to eradicate hate and evil!
We humans strive for fairness. Fairness does not necessarily mean absolutely the same treatment for varying degrees of effort (that would be unfair.) It's not fair for someone who works really hard to get treated exactly the same as a freeloader (just as it's not fair to give wall street corporate executives bonuses for creating a "Too Big to Fail" company, that behaved irresponsably---if not criminally---, while average Americans are being evicted from their homes.)
However, As the American experiment has shown, giving each individual in the country an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY (as much as possible) TO SUCCEED, can make a country the greatest power in the world. The oligarchs can't run from the innate human concept of fairness, they can't rationalize fairness away, we feel unfairness just as we feel hunger. Right now we are hungry for fairness!!!
Fairness is not an innate human concept. Imagine you are hanging on to a cliff, and someone is hanging on to your legs. Your hands are slipping. Do you think about what is fair, which is you both die together, or do you try to save your own life? Don't bother answering that question. Selfishness is the baseline for human behavior, not fairness. We must try to fight our instincts to become fair, rational, and reasonable.
It really doesn't matter that we stopped the nazis. It's a good thing, but people demonize the nazis instead of what the nazis stood for. One third of europeans polled blame the global economic downturn on "the jews". There is still bucketfulls of hatred to go around, ending a war really did nothing to stop any of it.
Study the ultimatum game (I provided you with many books). What you imply (that selfishness is the root cause for all our behavior) flies in the face of scientific evidence. Scientific Evidence shows that we will harm ourselves to ensure fairness (so much for your "selfish is the only way theory.")
There are many Medal Of Honor winners who gave their lives for their friends...See below:
http://listverse.com/2010/02/19/10-astounding-actions-earning-a-medal-of-honor/
Yes there are. But these fine folks are the exception, not the rule. To say that the actions of these people prove the overall goodness of humanity doesn't make any more sense than saying the actions of the guy who broke into my garage prove the overall badness of humanity. In the military, guys become attached to each other, very much like a group of brothers. For the life of a GI, imagining what life would be like if you didn't do everything you could to save a brother and watching him die a horrible death, a heroic death becomes an appealing alternative... So in an odd sort of way, it is in a person's self-interest to save their friends. As a control group, you and I both know what would happen if a bunch of random humans who had never met each other prior found themselves on a battlefield fighting an enemy. Without the bonds developed from living together, few if any would do anything heroic.
There are many examples of heroism where folks die saving the lives of others. It may be relatively rare but happens.
I see no reason to believe that a Medal Of Honor Winner behaves in a Heroic, Altruistic, way---due to their own shelfish desires. You are saying that they selfishly desire to risk their lives altruistically saving the lives of others. How do you know the Hero's desires, can you read Heros' minds? All you know (with any degree of certainty) is the hero's behavior, which is altruistic.
To say that someone is "selfishly behaving altruistically" is a self-negating statement, equivalent to saying that "This sentence is true, precisely because it is false." Ridiculous!
Looks like you are choosing to ignore the Ultimatum Game Scientific evidence, too.
Unfortunately for classical economists, the Ultimatum game results severely undermine the archaic notion that "People behave out of rational self interest." We're better than that (as our Medal of Honor winners prove!)