Forum Post: Every American Should be Able to Live on a 40-Hour Work Week
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 9:26 a.m. EST by tiewackit
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It doesn't matter "what" your job is. It doesn't matter what your education level is. Every. Job. Is. Important. Every job contributes to the general welfare. This is American, dammit! Americans should be able to support themselves working a 40-hour week.
Yes, this is something I've said before. I don't mind that wealthy people exist or that there is a gap in wealth distribution, but working a full time work week should allow someone to survive and have the basic amenities. We are not all equal in our education, skills, talents and ambitions, but we should all be able to live.
Thank you. This is what I'm saying. And no, I don't think "only" Americans should be able to live on a 40-hour work week. It's just that we're supposed to be the dream nation and if we can't set the bar then what is it we're doing?
A simple ? for anyone (a challenge if "you" will). In looking @ the numbers given as actual fact on any scale, who knows of more people that have lived over 70 (or even till ETC.), compared to how many that "they" knew that have passed on? % wise, WHADDAYA GOT? "Most sincerely", (LOVE-n-STUFF) DONNIE Salem Mass. EST. 1626 P.S. Everybody shouldn't have to read dates on tombstones to know which side of "any" scale, went through the floor. +
Historically speaking (and correct) the "European Aristocrat(s)" have been trying to pull this country (and it's PEOPLE) into every endless imaginable conflict, that they ever could/is at all possible. Where did they get the idea to begin w/ looking into greener alternative fuels (solar, wind, HYDROGEN, ETC.) ? From "US" (?) just talking about it for over fifty years. Instead of under the table deals (in total contradiction of any leadership set course), what do you think would happen, if instead of making promises (a.k.a. wrong deals ETC.) into ensuring that the flow of oil (as well as it's usage ETC.) continue, they would do if "WE" announced tomorrow that since it is clear "that all cooperation has gone out the window", "The United States" has decided to begin manufacturing it's own HYDROGEN (and using "it" just like scientists have wanted) as a main alternative fuel/power source/ETC., by using the other methods (solar/wind/NOT EXCLUDING "IT"/ETC.) to do it? (LOVE-n-STUFF) DONNIE SALEM Mass. EST. 1626 P.S. If a nuclear enriched pellet could run a super aircraft carrier for ten to fifteen years ETC., how much HYDROGEN (as an energy alternative) could that same "PELLET" produce? ?? + ??
Bull
I work about 15 hours a week, and make a good living because I have skills you don't. Go back to school. Learn a new trade. Do something to improve your own lot in life. Don't rely on others to provide that stuff for you.
Oh, and stop having babies. They're expensive.
So, you think the degree-holder is more important than the janitor? Who will clean up your mess? Who works harder? The person who picks your vegetables or you?
I will ignore your "baby" comment because it is ignorant and borders on sexism/racism.
I don't hold any college degrees. I worked hard in the construction industry, paid attention, made friends, and eventually worked my way into a position that allows me to live comfortably.
Yes, the time of the person who has skills is more valuable than the time of those who have none. That's why they are paid more.
I keep trying to give the same advice but it's not what people here want to hear. People here want to hear that their problems are omebody else's fault. I also get paid pretty well because I have skills. Not just because I'm breathing.
I fully agree with you. Personal responsibility. Hard work. Apply oneself.
Did you hear President Obama's definition of hard work on his news conference last Thursday? I should find it on line and listen to it again (painful), and post the excerpt here. Basically, it getting out of bed and showing up for work!
No, I don't know what you mean about what Obama said but I'm definitely curious.
An excerpt from the 06Oct2011 news conference. President Obama speaking "... that folks who are working hard every single day, getting up, going to the job, loyal to their companies, that that used to be the essence of the American dream. That’s how you got ahead, the old-fashioned way..."
What about contribution? I wouldn't define HARD work as getting up and going to a job. The loyal part is OK, but I think he misses the point.
Ah yes, I do. Remember that. Thank you for looking that up and posting it. It definitely speaks to an entitlement mentality.
Take the 5 minutes out of your day that you may spend smoking a cigarette, drinking a beer or gluing your eyes to yet another poorly drawn out television show & read up!
RON PAUL! 2012 http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=181997088537471 http://www.blackthisout.com/
No thank you. Ron Paul is against everything I believe in.
OK why can people not live on the wages of a 40 hour week? I know I can. But then I do not own any expensive toys, I have no 50" flat screen TV, I have no cable, I drive a car built in 1995 because I cannot afford anything better without putting myself into debt. My computer I built myself over 6 months (as and when i could afford the parts).
The problem tends to be that people want all of these luxuries and so are willing to pay high interest rates on credit cards in order to afford something they do not need just so they can "Impress the Jones's Next door".
Of course to then re-pay their extortionate credit card fee's (and I will admit that they are stupidly high), they then need to go and get another part time job.
Long and short, people are mostly to blame. Though the credit card companies do have to share part of the blame as well.
For decades now, the economy has been built on people living beyond their means on credit. Consumers are the "job creators" and the banksters were all too happy to set up the system this way, and keep it going. Now, credit is at it's breaking point, and the economy is in the shitter. That's the result of the ever growing gap in wealth. A fantasyland feudal aristocracy doesn't create jobs, you and I do. That's capitalism, for good or for bad.
You do know that when banks denied loans to people who could not afford what they wanted to purchase, they were sued for discriminatory practices. The way to counter this was to have a scale for the interest rates. Crappy credit and high risk of default gets you a high interest rate, that way the bank will get a food amount of its money back. If the person borrower pays it all back on time, then the next time he takes out a loan he will get a much better rate.
So the banks making loans they shouldn't have wasn't their fault during the S&L scandal in the 80's or during the housing bubble either?
You're missing my point, which is that credit became a substitute for income while the money rushed to the top. Now that people don't have access to credit, and all the money is consolidated at the top the economy stalled and is now in a flat spin. The middle class is the engine of a modern mass market economy. People never should have bought in to a credit lifestyle, but they did, and the banksters were making so much money they did everything they could to facilitate. This is the end result. So... now what?
um....get..rid...of...credit? not sure if that is the right answer, but I hope I got it right. did I?
That IS what has been happening, and that's why the economy is so fucked.
People are to blame.
Outsourcing has made it possible to erode our rights to privileges, garnish our wages and make us #1 of Nothing.
If anybody is still deluded enough to think "free" trade was actually free and a good idea you can check this out! (Specifically the post by Politically IncorrectBenjamin)
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-wouldnt-hire-any-of-you/
THIS is what "free" trade has created.
Our tech jobs are next...you just wait. Bay Area was protesting the pending "free" trade deal with South Korea that would outsource our tech jobs to South Korea.
Then we'll lose our tech industry.
I admit outsourcing does have it's issues. However like everything else it also has it benefits.
Take for example this computer I am sat at, the monitor was made in china, the mouse was made in Tiwan, the keyboard was made in china. The case was made in India, the motherboard was made in South Korea, as was the processor and RAM.
all of the jobs from producing these parts were outsourced to another country for one reason and one reason only.
Costs.
Now due to the high cost of living in the USA, plus a whole bunch of other things, if I had decided to buy all these parts from American manufacturers, I probably would not be sat here talking to you, and that would be because all the parts would be so much more expensive than they are now.
Corporations out source to other parts of the world because it keeps prices down and demand high, this is because their economies are so much weaker than the USA's, and the cost of living is so much less.
oddly enough, a recession can actually help American manufacturing, this is because the US dollar becomes weaker compared to other countries, and this drives down the cost of producing things in the USA.
I outsource software development jobs. Not because of cost, but because I've had to look wider than the US to find people willing and able to do the job. I've been hiring Venezuelans and paying them more than the average American hourly wage of $33. Americans could have these jobs, and when we started our company four years ago we initially tried to hire locally. But it simply hasn't been possible. The talent pool isn't there.
Maybe you didn't look hard enough? Cause there are a -lot- of underemployed and talented unemployed people right now. Why would the majority of students get liberal arts degrees unless they were trust funders so they could afford to waste money? Then they aren't the majority!
Then again the talent could have either been working for other companies or starting their own businesses. You could try hiring from your competitors I hear that's standard business practice these days.
EDIT - But if the talent simply was not there then this is a perfect argument to retrain the unemployed! Most people in this country forego an education because right now it is a fucking scam. Lots of graduates that come out with no jobs in a demand-less economy. Ever heard of the law school graduates? The investment firms that went under and had to lay people off? Yeah...
We would be able to afford "omg expensive" goods if we were paid the right wages to be afford them. I know there are some greedy and short sighted consumers out there, but if we reinstated our tariffs or at least some form of protectionism, I would be happy to buy American, because I know that I am keeping demand IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE I LIVE and I am also protecting the rights of my fellow Americans AND reducing the demand for slave labor elsewhere. The greedy and short sighted idiots would buy whatever was the cheaper option anyway and they wouldn't be grumbling as hard when they find that they now have jobs and don't have to take crap from people like Mister "I can fire you for your beliefs! I can fire you for liking God! I can fire you for being a lib or a con! I own you and you are garbage!" from that thread I linked.
It hasn't helped us yet. For example I notice that China and Pakistan and all their ilk are still successfully flooding our markets with cheap and subsidized goods (remember Solyndra?) and destroying the livelihoods of every American except for the few multinational owners involved.
And last time I checked - people without a job can't afford to buy "fancy things" without MORE dependence on our atrocious Debt Government...aka "Our Credit Based Economy". I think getting out of debt is also a universal idea that both the OWS and Tea Party hold.
End "Free" Trade. Our social experiment has failed at the expense of the people involved. And at the very least - do we want more employers to be like that "I AM GOD" guy? I thought we NEEDED more people working to be able to buy this is just ridiculous!
The "benefits" of outsourcing are just like cocaine highs - the high makes you do it more and makes you ignore the fact that your body is getting unbelievably fucked up.
At minimum wage, you will earn about 15k a year. That's about $1200 a month. Now rent (500), food(150), there's a car and gas(100) to get to to work, car insurance(120), health insurance(150), maybe some school loans(100), retirement, and an emergency fund, oh wait, I'm almost at $1200 already, I guess I will have to skip the last two. I don't see much room for the luxuries you're talking about.
Who really makes minimum wage? Teenagers? By the time you have worked for the same employer for 20 years you should be making way more than minimum wage.
Why? After 20 years, someone much younger can do your job faster, so kiss your job goodbye.Besides, anyone who would stick with a minimum wage job for 20 years is an idiot.
Money is made with your brain, not your brawn. 20 years of experience should give you an advantage over the younger. That's why you can expect to earn more as you garner more experience. Get it?
If its a minimum wage job, there is probably not a whole lot of either brain power or training involved. By the way, 20 years makes SOME people wiser, but never smarter. I guarantee there are plenty of teenagers who are smarter than your example worker.
MikeyD: As you get older you also gain reading comprehension skills.
I never said anything about smarter.
I said that people who have a lifetime of experience will naturally earn more money, as they are more valuable to the organization.
Everyone has to start somewhere. What do you suggest. Should we make some kid just out of High School the CEO of McDonalds? Should a kid out of HS be paid the same as me?
Does the CEO of McDonalds make minimum wage? Whe you said "Money is made with your brain" you weren't talking about getting smarter?
No. I was typing about gaining a lifetime of experience, which helps you to make more informed decisions. As you pointed out, there is a difference between smarter and wiser.
well you dont get to be ceo of mcdonalds by working the register for minimum wage. You might make it to manager, but it is franchise owned and that is where it ends.
I personally know at least one franchise owner of a Burger King, who started flipping burgers in the store he now owns. He also owns three other restaurants now. He did become a GM of a franchise, saved his money and when it came up for sale, he took a risk with his hard earned money.
That is what makes America great. He is a CEO. He's also a CFO, manager, bartender, waiter, cook, taker out of trash and anything else that needs to be done. He works probably eighty hours a week. Doing anything required to succeed. No college education. Just years of hard work, saving and experience.
Yah, but he is probably older. The new philosophy we teach is that you need to first go into debt attending a third rate college that will qualify you for that burger flipping job. Then, after another four years of graduate school, you are entitled to make ~80-200k a year which should allow you to pay off all your student debt by the time you die.
This ignores the idea that you could simply start your own business right now and be successful, despite the dramatic increase in regulations. It also ignores the fact that kids in China and India, with population in excess of a billion are cranking out kids with the same crappy piece of paper willing to work for minimum wage at those same companies, and our politicians haul them in as "skilled labor" on the H1B visa program, and then ask that they be allowed to stay.
What can I say, we've bread people to think they are so helpless, all they can do is sit in the street and protest for jobs that are never coming.
You said; "Yah, but he is probably older. The new philosophy we teach is that you need to first go into debt attending a third rate college that will qualify you for that burger flipping job. Then, after another four years of graduate school, you are entitled to make ~80-200k a year which should allow you to pay off all your student debt by the time you die."
If this is true, why are you not protesting the university intelligentsia that expounds those ideas. Why do you buy into those false premises to begin with.
Don't take out loans. Work hard, and pay for your education with cash. It can and has been done many times.
I don't recall stating who I am protesting.
Perhaps I made an assumption based on where this discussion is taking place. My apologies if I assumed incorrectly.
As did I. I figured it out about 8 posts back, but you threw me off with this first statement,
"By the time you have worked for the same employer for 20 years you should be making way more than minimum wage."
I have to go back to work now. I have an estimate for a column and balustrade system, that I know little about, to prepare.
Perhaps you are lucky and work in a profession that pays more than minimum wage and live where costs are low. Are you also lucky enough to have work-provided insurance? Because many minimum wage workers do not have this privilege.
Actually every american should be able to support themselves working 40 hours a week for ONLY 3 months out of each year. it seems to me that there are many more people on this planet than jobs the NEED to be done. Some things people fail to miss when they ask for more jobs is the Jobs lead to unnecessary consumption of natural resources, Additional pollution generated by the transportation of the person to the work place AND raw materials to the manufacturing area and energy consumed to manufacture products. All of which is totally unnecessary if we are just consuming for the sake of producing so someone can have a job.
There's merit in your reasoning. Just the same, perhaps we can agree that the unskilled worker is as valuable to society as the hedge fund manager - at least on a philosophical level?
The hedge fund manager needs a lead earring as do all international bankers, career politicians, and leaches on society. Maybe not the people personally but certainly their positions in society. But yes I fully agree, should young people be left to there free will there will always be some that want to play all the time and some that want to grow up to be doctors and many in between. They will grow up to be the unskilled worker and the doctor and the everything in between. If they only NEED to work 3 months as a contribution to general society collecting garbage or working in the ER, I'm sure they each in there own way will be happy. More importantly they will have 9 months to spend with family members, nurture children, philosophize, share knowledge, and hopefully travel the world sharing culture and ideas.
The less skill you have the more valuable you are. Money should not be tied to skill, merit or hard work. It should be tied only to need. Need constitutes right. The more someone needs something, the more they have a right to claim it.
Work? Fuck that. Every American should be able to live. Period. And why stop at Americans? Why not extend it to the whole world? Money and wealth should be separated from old fashioned ideas like merit and work.