Forum Post: Don't Deitify The Founding Fathers
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 31, 2011, 9:32 p.m. EST by EasterRising
(35)
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The Founding Fathers of America were not faultless, or even particularly clever. The Constitution is not above scraping.
There isn't anything to scrap. It is an excellent document that is a contract between the states. I do not understand why it is that you want to scrap it.
GF, does that include the part about Slavery?
I am always perplexed by arguments suggesting the founding White Men were almost demigods. This were a small group of men with the same flaws as the rest the us. They created a Constitution in THEIR interests, not the masses.
Take the first amendment. You have a right to free speech, as long as it is not on private property, unless the owners say it is ok, and the system is in the process of privatizing everything. The effect is you can only protest in areas the system tells you you can. It belies the point of the freedom of speech. I love the cages they put us in if we want to protest at the Corporate controlled Presidential debates. You can only protest where the candidates cannot hear or see you.
The current tech advances have out stretched the legal meaning of the right to privacy. The right to privacy applies to snail mail, the government cannot open a letter without a writ. However, the courts have ruled the Internet and text messages do not apply. The NSA, FBI. MI, and CIA can listen to anything they want. Under Bush it was argued the special court, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which the government needs to get permission from for intelligence wiretaps, is irrelevant.
We need a new structure. The old one, which was designed to make 18th century slave owners more money, is outdated. It is strangling the freedoms Americans need to control their government, which is why we are in the economic mess we are in.
We need a new platform to structure our government which empowers the Workers to run the whole system economic system, free of capitalist and government control. The current Constitution does allow this.
It is time to scrap it.
I don't think that the founders were demigods. The Constitution is a contract between the states because the Articles of Confederation was not working out. They could not have the states making independent treaties and having x amount of currencies and be able to really defend itself. So, they instituted 3 branches of government that was supposed to keep each other in check. Was slavery here? Oh, yeah. I believe the first laws came out in Massachusetts. They also knew that they would have to tackle that later and there was a great fear of a race war for payback.
Now, the Bill of Rights, or what is actually the Bill of Federal Limitations is another matter. It wasn't until a process called incorporation that those rights belonged to you and I. This came about all together rather recently in the grand scheme of things. Some of those still do not belong to you and I.
And over this time we have supreme court cases that have established rights for us and how to remain diverse and live together. No where in the Constitution does it say Capitalism or Socialism. This does not mean that I agree with every ruling from the SC, I do not.
But, we do not just scrap the constitution. We participate (and often I wish we would not) internationally. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the entire world would just sit idly by while the US caved in on itself because they were scrapping over a document that could very well have been the cure.
I am of the opinion that the Constitution was written by the financial elite for their own benefit. The Working Class was kept out of the proceedings on purpose. God for bid people such as myself should have any input into who governs us. You seem to be schooled on the history of the proceedings, so i am sure you are aware of the Working Class and Farmer rebellions of the 1780's.
The Incorporation of the Bills of Rights also stems from the bastardization of the 14th. It was more about corporations than about the people. (I think it was the 14th, or maybe the 15th.)
So from my point of view, the entire process was not intended for the interests of the Working Class, people like me. All laws that extended from the original document are tainted toward the bourgeois class control and goals. I disagree with this system of control.
I am not disagreeing with you on your facts, as you have done your homework. I am disagreeing on the system that extends from the Constitution. It is not a document designed at its core to create or facilitate an equal society. Rather, the system that rises from it forces inequality.
There is enough inequality in nature, we do not need a political system, based on the Constitution, which enhances or exacerbates natural differences.
I want a Direct Democracy. It is possible, though will require a great deal of work. The US Constitution does not allow for this system, so I will work towards the goal of a new order.
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_bor.html
^^^Please read the above to learn about incorporation. Direct Democracy is tyranny of the majority.
GF, I have read many of these scare tactics arguments which inevitably attempt to dis-empower the Working Class. This argument is straight out of Adams and Hamilton. Their fear of the "tyranny of the majority" is a false, unproven assertion.
Where is this tyranny expressed? How is this tyranny different, and how does it differ, from the tyranny of the 1%?
The Federalist who made this false argument were attempting to gain support for their elitist governmental concepts and ideas. They did not like the "revolutionary" society that existed in the 1780's in America, where Working Class people and Jeffersonian small farmers had a share of control of society. During this period, there were a number, including four major, of rebellions. Why? becuase the 1% of that day attempt to put the tax burden on the 99%, JUST LIKE NOW.
What is tyranny of the majority? When the 99% have a say in how their government works in equal proportions to the 1%.
GF, I am not going to quater these warn out attacks on Democrcey. People have the power. I am not saying mistakes will not be made, of course they will. But when people are empowered to control their lives our society will grow up a lot faster.
DD is hard because it will cut into people's TV time, require new social interactions, require all of us to be involved. I know that is hard. But it is the only way to strengthen out the mess we are in.
So, tell me, what did you think of Prop 8?
GF, I just saw this reply from last week.
Prop 8, I do not think it is a government issue. It is a personal issue that government has taken up. It is one of many that distract us.
But since I am in Jersey, I do not know all the details.
Also, why did you bring up Prop 8?
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My daddy was a fondling father.
Scraping? No. Amending? Maybe.
The weird, beautiful thing about our Constitution is that it provides us a government that is self-healing. It is not a brick foundation. Instead it is a boat, or ark floating and surfing with the tide. Our nation is not a house. It is ideal built with a framework of the Constitution and exists because people believe in the rule of law and some other shit called inalienable rights.
Yeah, just throw our history out the window and try to start from scratch. Ignore the wisdom accumulated through the ages of hard fought struggle and "start over again." What the F--k? This is just too rediculous!
Proposal to modify the Constitution as follows;
They were not faultless, but to say that they were not particularly clever is to make me disregard this post entirely.
The founding fathers took change into account. If we dont like the document than we can change it.... there is no reason to scrap it. They knew things would change, the document was written in a time of political and religiousness persecution, the document reflects that. Times have changed, and it must as well.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/republicanism-and-social-libertarian-ideals-can-th/
The founding fathers did learn from history though and we are clearly having trouble doing this so maybe they were wise.
Thomas Jefferson was a deist. The belief that God can only be found through Reason. For Deists, human beings can only know God via reason and the observation of nature but not by revelation or supernatural manifestations (such as miracles) – phenomena which Deists regard with caution if not skepticism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
1776 Molasses
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9xV1LA6EHU
No danger of that, the people and politicians have been ignoring the founding fathers for nearly 100 years. They dead in body and spirit.
Loon alert loon alert! Wood, wooooo, loon alert loon alert! Quick moderators, keep an eye on this one. What will he say next that will put this movement 6 degrees further out on the fringe?
What don't you like about the Contitution Smart Ass
You mean besides it being racist?
Please specify which parts of the Constitution are racist.
3/5 compromise?
3/5 comp is actually exactly the opposite. Here is why, if each slave had been counted as a full person that would have given the slave owner, not the slave a full vote for every slave owned. That would have promoted the ownership of slaves as well as given the slave owners much more pull in elections. The compromise was made to attempt to keep slave owners from flooding the vote.
if I asked what color you were I bet you think that would sound racist, think of the time when it was wrote and existing laws in place.
What color do you think I am? And I am assuming you mean race? Or do you want to know my hair color?
"the time it was wrote" <-- Really???
white, black, brown, yellow, red...skin color... clearly, this seems to be a concern of yours
What is a concern of mine? My skin color?
When did I say that?
people who worry about race are uneducated fucks. if you can't respect history and want to change it to your liking you are living in a bubble. I could care less what color you are but to think are founding fathers are racist does not really matter in todays society it has nothing to do with the issues about wall street.
So race does not matter? Is that what you are saying?
Then OWS should damn that ANY mention of government statistics not be allowed to mention race, creed or color.
Okay?
Exactly. The stats should no be allowed to mention race.
you like to fight, what is something we can agree on?
Fuck off if you do not like these principles
Fuck off? Where?
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