Forum Post: Do any of you ever plan to participate in the economy?
Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 17, 2012, 11:21 a.m. EST by wigger
(-48)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Beyond taxing rich people what are your personal goals? Wife? Kids? Picket fence? Have you been educated to have no expectations beyond what the government can provide you?
I'm really curious.
I've participated and raised my kids, put them through school without loans by planning ahead. I don't see taxing the rich as the only answer. It's more fix the tax codes to make sure everyone pays. It also should include deciding, as a nation, what we want and then fund it properly.
That leaves us with a couple of unattractive options. Major cuts to Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, or the military is one. Raising taxes on everyone (because there really aren't enough rich people to cover what we've been spending) is another option. There are probably combinations of the two you could try also.
You didn't mention the option of increasing revenue. Nobody mentions this option these days. It involves rebuilding the infrastructure of the US, both to create jobs, but also to make the economy more efficient.
Then more business can be done, and people employed, increasing tax revenue to the state, by increasing the number of taxable transactions, rather than increasing the tax rate.
Difficult for the government to create jobs, unless it does that by spending money it doesn't have. Economic theories range from spending leads to a business growth to total government hands off leads to growth. That is all it is, theory. I guess you could pick one and try it.
Critics constantly compare us to Europe when it comes to social spending and it's there that I have a solid base for comparing. A nation like Sweden where their form of democratic socialism seems to work for them has an average tax rate of about 45%, the average tax rate for the US is around 25 or 26%.
First we would have to pass Glass Steagall, to eliminate all phony money from our system. Then we could re-create a national bank that would be able to create credit at low interest rates, since it wouldn't have to earn profit for private owners. This is the alternative to Wall Street.
If this credit were invested in projects that improve the efficiency of our economy, they would pay themselves off over the course of 50 years. This is the approach to increasing revenue. It worked for FDR and would work again today.
It may work, but in order to do it your way there are several steps that must be taken first. Convincing congress to take the first two steps you mentioned would be a start.
Yes, and convincing them of that is probably the most important issue in the world today. All of them are aware of this and some are probably just scared to do it. Politicians have been assassinated before for doing such things.
Assassinated for proposing legislation? Haven't heard of that happening lately. Your battle is in getting the same kind of broad support that was seen in the SOPA internet strike. There is a strong libertarian-socialist group within Occupy that would prefer to scrap the system rather then use it for change though. Personally I think they are overly optimistic about the possibility of any kind of popular revolution and would prefer working through the existing system for change.
I'm thinking more of presidents who dealt with monetary reform, I guess both Lincoln and Kennedy would be examples.
How do we get congress to enact Glass Steagall? The only thing I can think of is the economy will actually have to continue getting worse before people are motivated to do something about this.
Goals (1) Happiness... (2) Wife? No... (3) Kids? No... (4) Picket fence? No... (5) and No, I didn't depend on government for my education. But ok, lets say that I did. What WOULD you expect when the federal government is the one educating us? Federal Government getting involved in our education system is most effective in the department of creating money troughs & funnelling more power to them, to control.
But Still... I dont believe that most people here or anywhere hold "no other expectations beyond what the government can provide" for them.
What government 'provides' us with has been made very clear hasn't it. Trillions in deficit spending, Criminality throughout Wallstreet that makes any ghetto look like an amusement park, A Broken Economy, Dollars that are actually Debt-Notes, Free Speech Zones, NDAA (because its a good thing) and countless other grievances...
(How do you feel about the federal government controlled education system? Has it worked?)
Participating in the economy = cutting down another forest, mining some more coal and oil, selling some more junk and other distractions.
Do you ever plan on awakening to the reality that there is more to life then 'the economy'.
Do you ever plan on figuring out that this system is utterly unsustainable and void of meaning?
Your status and relationship to the economy say nothing about your moral character, your wisdom and compassion.
These days, its pretty much like what you say, but we could have an economy that is sustainable and based on meaningful work.
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Beyond taxing rich people what are your personal goals?
Read a good book now and then. Be a good neighbor and a good friend. Get the occasional blowjob from an attractive female. Eat well. Live within my means. Try not to fart in public. Enjoy my work. Be a good steward of the Earth. Leave people behind who'll say I wasn't a totally self-righteous dickweed.
Good plan
Looking out my window right now, I can see at least 80+ homes where people are living your dream every day kiddo.
You sir, will inherit the earth.
@wigger...
Like the man said..."All the diamonds in this world that mean anything to me, are conjured up by wind and sunlight sparking on the sea".
Just being alive I am wealthy beyond speaking. And I am grateful for what I have been given, by God. That's why I want to spend my life giving to others and helping them find a little grace.
Been there, done that.
Now I'm retired. No picket fence though.
Do you plan to do something besides sit at a keyboard and talk shit?
Why should he/she? That's all YOU do all day. :-)
Just for point of fact-------------------------------------------Right back at ya.
I'm still waiting on your first and likely, only fact.
What would you like a fact on?
Do you?
All the time.
Just what is it that you think you are so good "competing" at?
Creating idiotic questions, and claiming them as viewpoints?
What viewpoints have I claimed and why do you feel the questions are idiotic?
You haven't offered any "view points".
Just the idiotic questions in the OP.
LOL, just repeating your own words to you. :) Why is wondering about people's futures idiotic?
You should read the questions you asked.
Now answer mine.
Just what is it you think you are so good competing at?
You're having a hard time with this aren't you.
You seem to be the one at -4.
You also won't answer one simple question, even after I answered yours..
You need to stop watching so much television and begin reading history books. You sound like an infomercial spokes person. Picket fence, really. What next? You going to start talking about little Princesses who live happily ever after.
I never think in terms of taxing rich people more. I think about creating jobs, so that the today's unemployed will also be able to pay tax, and improving the efficiency of the economy so that more business can be done, resulting in more taxable income.
Been there done that.Now I like to see the rich sweat it out.Expectations are to enjoy watching occupy win.
Unless you want to be homeless or dead, you have no choice but to support the economy in some way shape or form. Even prisoners participate by being arrested and in some cases a lot of inmates get "jobs" and "free healthcare". It's amazing how our system works, it almost seems like you'll have a better chance inside jail than out.
no.
What a condescending question, wigger. It says more about you than any OWS supporter.
Condescending? I'm going by what I read here, where did I get it wrong? Every third post is about raising taxes on the rich and how people have been educated is certainly pertinent.
Look. The economy is not working for a lot of Americans right now. I don't think the tax issue is primary. I think the most important issues are getting money out of politics and reinstating Glass-Steagall. However, the rich and the corporations can make a choice here. They can continue their greedy ways or they can participate in fixing our economy to work for more Americans. Many wealthy people, such as Warren Buffet are on board. They're okay with giving up a bit of their extreme wealth to help those less fortunate.
My fear is that if corporations and the very wealthy do not begin to share a bit of the wealth that they garnered through an unfair capitalist system that lacked regulation and provided them with many advantages, the American people will need to overhaul our economy. It is a choice. We can't continue with 1 in 7 people on food stamps and 49 million Americans in poverty and a dwindling middle class.
Well, of course I disagree with 95% of what you just said so there isn't much common ground. I think we can agree that jobs are of paramount importance in getting our economy back on track.
A healthy economy can afford the things I read here, a sick one simply can't. I really don't want to argue about how to accomplish our recovery I wanted to speak to some of you on a personal level and for the most part, I feel I've learned some things today (even though most of my posts seem to have disappeared! :)
Your question shows your hubris and your arrogant assumption that if someone supports OWS then they are not working, not a taxpayer, not responsible. That is b.s. You don't know who any of us are. And, you don't care. You're not really looking for answers to that ridiculous question in a sincere way.
Again, I simply go by what is written. The reality of OWS is on display here daily, why deny it?
It's not true. Why lie? "Do any of you ever plan to participate in the economy?" Ridiculous.
I haven't found the right way to participate in the economy yet. I haven't found a niche. I'm very radical, outspoken, female, and I address taboos. I might work in education. I don't know yet. I feel like the world is not right for me. I have to keep taking out loans to finish my education and while I always planned on getting a PhD, I am now questioning my ability to even afford a masters, but we'll see. I need to relax and let it flow. This is incredibly relevant: http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm The Abolition of Work
Every single thing alive (with the possible exception of people living in a welfare state) has to earn its living somehow once it's left childhood.
but welfare states exist. France for example. I think this issue is much more complex than you think and maybe reading more into it would help you. There are just so many ways for people to help eachother, from bartering, to giving for any reason, to trading, to borrowing, I don't really know anything about economics, trade, or money, and I know that.
It doesn't work very well in France, there is a welfare class that feels trapped and ignored. The riots there a few summers ago were part of a struggle to get jobs and find a way out of welfare to a better standard of living.
Sweden is supposed to be better, but they tax their citizens at around 45%, and a good portion of that is a tax on consumption (a regressive tax). Average tax rate in the US is around 25 or 26% (I mean average per citizen, all forms of tax).
There are a lot of ways for people to help each other, but too much help builds resentment on both sides, France again is a good example. One side sees themselves as hard workers paying for lazy loafers, the other see themselves as ignored, hated, and held down by the rich.
In my day, ( A very long time ago and in a galaxy far, far away, evidently,) education meant you were preparing yourself for a meaningful way to make a living. By the time we managed to get a high school education, (If we even got that far!) most of us had a plan; a plan to make a living for ourselves.
Please understand: I do not blame you entirely for not having such a plan. These days the educational systems do not do a lot to prepare you to make a plan. You are hopefully, however, now aware that a plan is necessary. No one can make it for you. You must do that for yourself.
Make that plan--find out what qualifications you need to accomplish it, then go to the library and educate yourself to that end. ( Libraries, for the most part, are free.)
Wow, a sincere response. The loans ruin everything don't they? You need some breathing space, some time to orient to the future but you can't take a break because the hammer will drop on the loans. You kids are so screwed, I truly hurt for you.
I'm a person, like many of us are, described by Alan Watts as one of the "ones who have chosen not to play." I realize life is a game, I learned this by being raised by an anarchist and by taking LSD, and I can't unlearn it. I know conformity is a ruse, a delusion, born out of fear which is chosen over confidence and strength, I've seen the truth and now I have nowhere to go, nowhere to feel normal, because the rest of humanity has not reached this point of truth telling.
We are the people that society either shuns out of insecurity about their own rules' validity, or chooses to support out of admiration for our honesty and our stubborn willingness to live how we want to and to speak truthfully, not in servility to our parents.
I just really don't fit in anywhere, and it's almost impossible for me to participate in mindless, non-creative work. Yes, I feel entitled, Yes I am idealistic, Yes, I want utopia.
Looking at "normal" people makes my brain completely shut off and I become no longer present.
"That outsider who lives out there in the mountain is at the highest peak of human evolution...And great that there is someone like that around..." - Alan Watts
I recently had this idea to invent a school experiment that would be constantly changing, even the walls would be periodically torn down and rebuilt. All ages would be taught there and the curriculum would be dependent on whatever the exciting conversation was that day. There would be no traditional teachers, authority would be proven through consistent repartee and trenchant expression, authority would have to be earned and constantly re-earned, but it would be nonviolent, humble, and justified, like the authority of a Zen monk, without compulsion.
Luckily for me, my aunt pays all my loans for me because I don't have a job and I've been sick in the hospital lately, so I've been out of school. She pays around 400-500 a month currently. We tried to get them deferred but to no avail. I'm actually in a really lucky situation. My mom pays for my internet, food, and room, and my aunt pays my loans without really complaining. Of course I feel guilty that I'm putting her in a financial pinch, but she expects that someday I will pay her back. And because she expects it, I will likely deliver. Rather than complaining and expecting me to never pay her back, she just assumes that I will, which means I probably will, because it would feel so wrong not to.
I'm quite like you =)
The vast majority of jobs in today's world are mindless, repetitious and soul-crushing, exploitative and unethical.
Many people think of work as 'independence' and 'contribution' to society. In most cases, the opposite is true.
The whole aim of a business is to extract wealth from the public. They advertise to us from birth, and sell us junk we don't need through the exploitation of our material lusts and object fetishes.
An employee in this case is MORE dependent on public wealth than any welfare recipient is. They depend on the coercion and exploitation of others to satisfy themselves.
There are exceptions of course, some jobs are noble and humane.. but are few and far between - as compassion isn't profitable.
People are quick to accuse the unemployed as parasitical, all the while ignoring the billions of public money spent on the military to fight wars we don't want, on police to enforce laws we don't agree with, on government bureaucrats and officials who create nothing of any real value or worth at all.
All that most people on this earth want is a simple life. Friends and family, shelter, food and health.
None of these things are guaranteed by modern civilization. In some ways, the slave economies and feudalism were better - at least the masters had somewhat of an obligation to look after their 'property'.
Foster your creativity. ^^
the whole reason the myth of the "lazy unemployed person" who "takes from the government" exists is because it has to cover up the unaccountable businesses who know that they do everything they can not to hire more people.
Well when you make your bed "you better be prepaired to sleep in it".
In other words understand that getting loans for whatever reason has it's consequences. Some good, some bad and most inconsequencial.
You mean the fake economy, based on reaping profit through War and Death and Economic Terrorism? No. ...
That's dumb. Have you been educated to believe that corporations should run our government? And those with the most money should be entitled to the best representation in government that money can buy?
http://goo.gl/qlH4U
How 'bout give me the cliff note version and if I can get interested I'll read the 65 page publication here.
Apparently, you've been educated to believe that is true. Since you believe that are you absolved from having to compete in our society? Since it's such a rigged game (in your view) do you feel you can never have anything not provided by the government?
Are you a freaking nitwit? Equal and fair representation in government is our right. It has nothing to do with competing in society. It has to do with government corruption.
It has everything to do with competing in society. Your life has been put on hold because of your political beliefs. You have been educated to believe you can't succeed and you must work to change whatever it is you want to change but you personally, have become stunted by your beliefs.
Which brings me back to my original question, what do plan to do with your life?
You make lots of incorrect assumptions about my life. My life is great. I wouldn't change a thing. Except I would like to see an end to government corruption.
You seem stunted by your idiocy.
Does applying vitriol to those who express a different point of view help to obviate the legitimacy of that viewpoint? Is everyone an idiot who doesn't share your worldview?
What do you do April? Are you employed?
Don't make dumb assumptions and I won't go vitriol. : )
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-van-zandt/democracy-in-america_b_1139463.html?ref=mostpopular
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-strauss/actually-corporations-tha_b_1144789.html?ref=politics
What assumptions do you feel that I've made? That you are unemployed? That the attention you pay to politics makes it easier for you to ignore other important aspects of your life?
I just want to know where you're going April, if you don't want to discuss it fine but not everyone is out to get you.
You're OP implies that people want handouts from the government, that people in OWS aren't participating in the economy. That is ridiculous. Your last post implies that I ignore important things in my life because I am concerned with our country and our government. That could not be further from the truth and is totally offensive.
I told you what I want. In my very first statement. To end government corruption. I just stated in the same kind of sarcastic way you stated your OP, to make a point of how ridiculous you sound when you make dumb assumptions implying people want handouts from the government.
Why do you keep asking me personal questions? If you want to discuss the issue of government corruption fine. I gave you two articles to start that discussion. Instead you keep asking me about my personal life. Which has nothing what so ever to do with government corruption.
Maybe you don't believe our government is corrupted by money. I do not know since you haven't said anything about that yet, but instead seem strangely focused on my personal life.
Ummm, the whole point of the post is how your life is affected by your participation in politics. Do you have a plan to participate in the economy. I've heard all the political claims by the participants and now I want to know how you got here.
What I'm discovering is a paranoia so deep that communication is impossible. You seem incapable of a civil conversation. I would ask why but you may deem that too personal. :)
Well, that is alot more clear and genuine than your original post! Sorry if I came off defensive and rude. I've had problems with posters here that sometimes go on the attack. Sorry, I made that assumption about you, which was just as bad. So, I'm really sorry. : )
How is my life affected by my participation in politics - I do volunteer work most every election cycle. I also do other volunteer work, at the public school and my Church. I used to volunteer at the animal rescue shelter too, but I kept wanting to bring all of the puppies and kitties home and it got to be too tempting and it just made me sad because I'm a neat freak and I can't stand animal hair in my house. My own weakness in conflict with my OCD. It made me too sad.
I got here because I was appalled and horrified that the crimes of Wall Street in the financial crisis were not investigated/prosecuted by the DOJ.
change the world.... how bout you... what do plan to do with your life?
Does changing the world pay well? Is it a good long term career choice? Or is it an excuse to do nothing, to not compete.
I trade stocks about an hour a week, the rest of the time I spend pursuing things that interest me.
hmmm..... sounds "productive" ... so does "trading stocks" contribute anything to the world ?
so in other words... you are a professional gambler ... no ?
Me and millions of others provide the liquidity that make the wheels of commerce turn which provides you with the tools to sit around and bitch about it.
Do you think it would have been helpful to have been educated on how our economy operates?
hmmm.... " provide the liquidity that make the wheels of commerce turn " ....
there is a difference between "investing" and "trading" .... "investing" is constructive ... it build's the economy ....
"trading" or "swapping" does nothing productive ... in fact for those investors "out of the loop" ... it hurt's them ... because of the manipulation .....
so... .. what do plan to do "constructive " with your life?
You really have no clue do you? My stock purchases help keep the value of a companies shares at a point they can always go to the market to raise capital in case they decided to expand and create some jobs. That is the function of the market, to provide liquidity to the companies traded there.
It's individual investors who by actively trading the stock keep the value up. If no one traded the stock it's value would be zero. Investors value a stock based on it's profitability, potential and a dozen other factors and buy and sell accordingly.
If you want to change the world you must first understand it.
I understand quite well ...
if you put capital into a company ... it help's them expand .... if you (trade) that capital away ... what do you think it does ?
besides lowering it's value ... it makes it unstable ...
also; It's individual investors who by actively trading the stock keep the value (of the trading companies) up.
now.... I also agree ... that the stock trading game does keep many employed... so I do not think it is a bad thing.... how-ever it is not as great as many think it is.... and no where near as productive as a manufacturing industry.... that actually creates something...
It's really exactly the opposite, if there is no trading in a stock it can't maintain a value. Investors decide everyday what a company s worth by putting hard dollars in it, without those investors, there is no value, no market, no company.
ATT is worth about 30.20 per share today, that makes ATT capitalization around 126 billion. That 30.20 is arrived at by me and another guy deciding (X millions) what we will pay for ATT and what we will sell ATT for, bid and ask.
If me and the other guy stop trading ATT the value drops to nothing, can you see that?
"....If me and the other guy stop trading ATT the value drops to nothing..."
no... "your" value (profit potential) drops to nothing....
you and the other guy stand to profit from the trade/s no? .... and if you profit... someone else must lose... no?
ATT is a big company .... no two people will affect it much... regardless of how much capital you put into it... if you quickly take it back out....
companies want longer term investments ... that's something they can bank on... and expand on....
...and clueless you will remain.
ok... explain it to me ... I'm all ears...
how-ever I can see... how activity... invites more investment into the stock market.... yet, I personally feel that investment into the economy would be far more product towards improving the current overall economic situation... no ?
You reveal yourself through your condescension.
Condescension? It's even more revealing that you see it as such.
As long as you know that I know.
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The meaning of life.
Ah, so now you want to justify corruption.
You will probably lose everything by the time this is all said and done. You will lose.
The world you've constructed interests me. I'm trying to determine motivation now. Everything you rail against seem to be impediments to your personal progress, reasons you can't succeed in this society and require another one.
That's why I'm trying to determine personal goals, long term plans, you know, the things humans do.
You have entirely too many preconceived notions.
Actually dear boy, I have none. I am in the process of forming some "notions" and that's why I want to learn about the people here.
Actually, little boy, I am a woman. Why, now, the sudden interest?
My interest is hardly sudden, I have been observing since the beginning. There are many, many political levels, from Soros funded nihilists to good people who believe in their cause. And as with all human endeavor, it comes down to the participants.
I am trying to find the person behind the GirlFriday persona...and a thousand others
So, that you can use whatever information that I have against me?
You are all the same.
GF, you are your own worst enemy. I have no desire to "use" anything against you, it simply isn't necessary.
Not likely. :D
This is not a new tactic.
So anyone different must be approached with suspicion and hostility? What are you afraid of?
That is quite outlandish. You know it.
It's going to be real tough for Americans to "compete" in this world with Chinese wage slavery...But our leaders are very definitely trying to give it a shot...
well i write in but god only knows if anyone ever sees what I send. A new idea for today is to break up the unity of the states, for a pre-set time in an attempt to do a reset for our political system. Because of the massiveness of our "union" we the people cannot be recognized, and the spotlight keeps getting grabbed by rich people, or life long government employees.
I'm ready to abandon the takers to their fate. I took the time to get the education, and I scrimped and saved to start a business. I took the risks, and supposedly the whining losers are owed a lion's share of what I have done in life. I'm supposed to pay the takers, because they're sainted and I'm evil.
I'm fed up with of it. It's a shame the American Dream is alive and well outside of the USA. It's being shot full of holes and regulated to death in the USA. Look at freed Eastern bloc, former Soviet Union satellite countries. Look at Asia, specifically China, Singapore, Japan, Malaysia, Hong Kong .The American Dream is alive and well there. We've got a bunch of entitlement mentality, lazy losers sabotaging that dream in the USA.
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no idea about economy
can't afford a Picket fence.. cuz there ain't no economy for the non rich ....
White pickets fences are a racist symbol of repression used by greedy people to selfishly declare ownership of land that rightfully belongs to everybody. Never heard of a brown picket fence, have you?!?
(Sarcasm!)
I'm glad you included that little sarcasm bit because I know of people that would actually say that.
Me too especially since i was in the middle of eating brown rice, in a white bowl.
You contradicting prick;)
Here's the deal with these folks and .................. it's not an overstatement to say OWS gatherings in NYC have had a Marxist tone. Flags with the iconic face of the Marxist revolutionary Che Guevara were everywhere @ ZP. The only American flag I saw was hanging upside down. Just about every piece of literature offered advocates socialism in the Marxist tradition as a cure-all for the inequalities of the American economic system.
You articulated their goals correctly. Tax the rich, blah, blah , blah.