Forum Post: Direction and education
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 19, 2011, 2:19 p.m. EST by Nyarlathotep
(13)
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I believe that there are great reasons to protest in this country and indeed that things need to change, but I have seen far too much uneducated garbage from the OWS to take it seriously.
If I were to ask random protesters a basic economics triva question, like for example: "Do you know who John Manyard Keynes was and what he is know for?" (without googling it) How many of these protesters would know? My point is that if people do not have the basic educational foundation of knowledge on the topic that they are so passionate about, why does their opinion matter to people who do have that knowledge and understanding?
I may be qualified to have an opinion because my degree covers economics, business, and politics adequately to understand Wall st, the government, and the economic underpinnings of our society but what about the people waving sign that say things like "Jobs are a right" or "Christians caused the financial collapse?" They may be qualified to comment on their field, but anyone with any significant education in economics, business or politics is going to think that this crowd is a joke.
I've seen innumerable similar signs and posts in this forum or on the news and as a result, I and most people that that do understand these things won't want much to do with this crowd.
If this protest will ever make a difference, it needs educated direction and not just an angry gaggle of opinionated morons.
I've always said one should have to pass graduate level exams in politics, economics, history, etc in order to vote. We got this way because politics caters to the lowest common denominator.
I concur. I've been saying something similar to that for years... I'm rather ashamed to admit that there were certain relatives of mine who voted for whoever was tallest or had the nicest hair... They should not have been allowed to vote.
in some ways - AGREED
my only concern is that education equates to indoctrination. I have just left higher degree education (did very well, thank you for asking) and as a result I recognise that my teaching informs my opinion.
Why we believe in democracy over Nietzsche is that, although the layman may not know the trending thoughts on economics, business and politics, they are subject to such systems and as such are able to offer valid POV's no matter how isolated in their world view.
To rephrase the point.. intuition and a life dealing with cash/money informs the supposition that; Money is important, but scarce - the job market is a skills based bubble that popped & politics is subject to its' master
basically we are all indefinitely fucked.. what happened to "tomorrows world"? it never came. It wasn't allowed.
TRUTH - there are lots of swinging, sweeping/misguided statements held on the cardboard of a movement without reign. What is true is the need for a wider audience to connect with the accusations made
I'm not so sure that there is a way around indoctrination to some degree in education. In most Universities if anything like my own, I figure that student are going to be subjected to a variety of viewpoints allowing them to find their own way. I've certainly encountered quite a wide range with regards to beliefs. At least based on my experience I don't feel as though it's avoidable. Your other point though is something that had occurred to me that I excluded from my unreasonably snarky initial post. I feel like the catch-22 of voicing their displeasure is that the fact that their world view is so narrow that the overall voice cannot be taken seriously when the members begin voicing what the knowledgeable and/or influential know to be absurd. For example if somebody were to tell me that "jobs are a right" I would probably look at them as though they had three heads and I can imagine that most politicians and business men would probably react the same way.
Because of that, I have a suspicion that this protest will fizzle and be forgotten like the WTO protests a decade ago which did basically nothing. I do think that you are probably right about that employment bubble. We may all be fucked for a while, but I think this may just be another economic hiccup even if it's a really bad one. These things ideally should purge the bad elements from our economy --granted that does not always happen and may not this time. Being on the bottom of the financial food chain though, it's pretty hard for me to say that --even harder for those being affected more so than I to accept.
nyar, i see it that way too. feels like there's an opportunity for something good to come of this, but the signal to noise ratio is pretty low, hard to see how a good outcome can get realized... but still, it could happen
ghost, i'm not sure what you read into his original post that started you yelling, what he says is pretty evident
I agree with Mike. Originally I thought that it was useless but once it went worldwide I started to change my mind.
If the message that underlays the protests (the need for change) makes it Washington there may be a chance of breaking the political gridlock and something actually changing. At this point I've observed a reasonably well split opinion on the matter making that move a risky move for any politician though. Half say the protests are dumb and half are in support. More of the public opinion needs to be swayed and I think that may only be possible if things just get that much worse. If things improve this protest will be useless.and I would expect that problems that we have now may be pushed off into the near future a bit more. Alternatively I see politicians cozying up to the protests for votes then continuing as usual after elected.
I responded because I know several undergraduate protesters there and on campus here who are well educated. He generalized that what the majority of the group is represents the whole group. He discriminated against this group because of some of its members.
By definition a generalization allows for exceptions. I am not surprised in the least by a few educated supporters here and there even though I personally disagree with them. If the majority of them were out waving signs that commanded an understanding of what they were protesting about, I wouldn't hold anything against them.
You're right that they might not have the knowledge about economics, but they have the first hand experience of the consequences of what you went to school for, which I know they don't teach you in school.
I do not consider you smarter, more intelligible, or respect you any further because you have an economics degree. In fact, I consider you LESS educated... because you have been further conformed to a narrow perspective of institutionalism. YOUR actions are the real uneducated garbage to say the least.
What Ghost posted is actually the kind of stuff I was describing.
The effects that our macro-economy has on the middle to lower classes are taught and most students including myself experience them. Those specifically being a full-time student while working through college knowing full well that I will owe at least $20k upon graduation and more when I go for my MBA.poly sci, microecon, international political economies, business and society, damn close to et al will cover that. The latter part of what you wrote actually sounds like something Homer Simpson would say. (Excuse me Doctor, I think I know a little something about medicine.) Like it or not, I am the 99%. I know enough though to steer clear of this crowd because people like you have made it an embarrassment for anyone who understands and has a say to have any association. I'm actually amazed that I bothered to reply to this kid --though I can't claim ignorance to an expectation of encountering this kind of opinionated tripe.
You make a prime topic for my Dissertation proposal next year with your cocky know-it-all attitude. I would call it, "True Ignorance in America." You may know alot about economics, but clearly know nothing about social injustices and now your stepping on my turf. It's people like you I make sure my students never become.
Why exactly is it your turf? What is your accredidation in that area? Without some sort of accredited recognition it is no more your turf than it is a boiled egg.
I would also like to point out that I am not a declared member of OWS, just a forum follower. Please read more carefully. This 'kid' is actually someone who cares about our country and puts time into preparing the people of tomorrow.