Forum Post: Direct democracy
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 14, 2011, 5:26 a.m. EST by Sunroad
(12)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Why don't we create a direct democracy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy
With the internet, direct democracy could become simple. Everybody votes on decisions regarding the country, the people that live in a state votes on decisions regarding the state and so on.
EDIT: Every week there could be a voting at the local library for those who wanted to vote. The voting system in the library would not be hooked up to the internet, but in a closed system that could not be tampered with. The issues they would vote on could be determined by a poll on the internet. The 10 most popular/important issues would then be voted on at the library.
Because a pure democracy never works for long. Even if you manage to solve all the other problems when people find out they can vote themselves all kinds of things out of the public treasury it will collapse.
Also you cannot use internet to vote in something like running a nation. All it takes is a hacker to control everything.
it was working in Libya.
it will collapse? LOL... its already collapsed ... and our treasury was emptied out years ago with the current system...
The US is not a democracy.
It worked for the Athenian democracy in the 5th century BC. I don't think the majority of the voters would accept it if somebody voted themselves a billion dollars.
I Norway there is something called a bank-id system which everybody has. It allows you to simply manage your bank account over the internet. It's not something you can just hack into. You have a password and a personal gadget that supplies a number you use to log on. Why wouldn't it work for voting as well?
@Sunroad. But Aristotle himself thought that only about 3,000 people was the maximum number that could exercise direct Democracy. Any larger size was simply not possible.
Anything can be hacked. If someone invents a program to prevent hacking, someone invents a program that can hack it. It is a never ending cycle.You realize the easiest way for an enemy country to take control of a pure democracy that votes via the internet would to be employ vast numbers of hackers to just vote whatever.
"Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. " - John Adams.
A pure democracy is slow at responding, and it is very exhausting. Since anyone could basically bring up a bill to vote on. People would grow tired of it quickly. That much democracy is to much work for the average citizen.
I see your points. It's kind of hard for me to think of a soultion for every problem that might appear. Maybe we would be able to sort out the problems that pops up in time with a direct democracy.
Anyways, I'm just suggesting other ways to run a society.
Its not letting me reply to your new post. Compared to America you are socialistic. And many Americans think it cost an unnecessary burden on their wallets. But they also dont realize they pay something like twice as much for health care as the next most expensive country and we are ranked 37th in WHO. Apparently money doesnt buy quality. Well unless your rich then i guess it does.
Also many countries in the EU are in better shape financially than the US. We spend a lot of money that we do not have. But we spend it all on stupid stuff. Wars, And ridiculous bureaucracy and unnecessary laws. The Obama Health Care bill i think it was was 900 pages. Our entire constitution was like 2 pages i believe. To run a whole country the fathers of our country needed about 2 sheets of paper. We need 900 to pass a mostly crap health care.
We complain about illegal immigrants but our immigration system is a nightmare. I know i used it before or tried. Its full of BS that is completely unnecessary.
Some things should be controlled by the govt. and those that are not should be regulated by it. Because at the end of the day if you have nothing watching out for the people, for the little guy, everything becomes regulated by greed.
So i could go for a mixed economy, just not a social one.
Great post.
To all the trolls and naysayers here:
This is the 21st Century!
For the first time in recorded history, we have the technological means to make Direct Democracy a reality:
http://metapolitik.org/blog/occupy-hackathons-produce-digital-tools
http://metapolitik.org/blog/protests-as-emerging-cities
Also, check out these posts here:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-demand-informed-direct-democracy-online-whos-wit/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/global-quorum/
Direct democracy is a bad idea.
Floridians to vote for a new bridge whose benefit will only be felt in Oregon? That's the central point of having representatives: in theory they should know more about the issues than the average citizen.
Flawed example: can direct democracy only be nationwide? Can't there be states?
its not flawed, its simplified. Would you feel better if i had named cities, neighborhoods, or public school sectors instead?
What if there was a way to correspond voting power with the impact it has on the voter. I believe it was Parecon (Participatory Economics by Michael Albert) that proposed that one's vote should be equal to the amount that the decision will affect that person.
I suppose it was petty, I'm sorry.
Direct democracy was attempted in Greece, and resulted in sectarian violence, power vacuums, and total socioeconomic collapse. Voting over the internet? Really? All it takes is one good hacker and you just destabilized society. Not my idea of a sound government plan.
Yes, the internet voting suggestion was definitely not made by a programmer.
I'm a programmer, and I'm all for it. Many places around the world (though not very big) implement such voting.
Then you must know that all systems have holes that can be exploited. Some by design.... ever heard of electronic voting machines? Internet voting would be even worse and even less transparent.
Yes, if you use only one electronic system. But if you combine a few external ones (such as mail) with all electronic data that you have (such as passport database), it will be impossible for anyone less than CIA to interfere.
well you said it. How about China? Iran? Israel? ... you seem to be ok with some "small" level of insecurity in voting, I am not - we can disagree there I suppose.
Oh, as if CIA can't interfere now?
What do you think can happen? China will make us vote itself a tax-free trade, and no one will notice?
(dunno why the text gets bold sometimes)
While working on LawDelta I came across this: http://bit.ly/bankforinternationalsettlement where:
Immunity — judicial process
I have no idea what it means, but certainly looks disturbing. In direct democracy it would become an issue, but in the Congress (or Parliament, in this case) they can settle such things behind closed doors, and then hide it under fifty clicks and un-indexable Javascript, appoint speakers nephew to run the thing and make some cash.
Direct democracy first of all means education.
Interesting find..I am with you on this bro
I like the idea of direct democracy, but on the national level? wow? I do think there are technical feasibility concerns that are beyond my level of expertise.
However, you outlined the bigger issue for me... "I have no idea what it means"
me neither! and I'm a really intelligent person. AND I've had a law course in graduate school. In other words to be effective legislators wouldn't we all need to be lawyers and politicians? (Education is right but also expensive!) I don't see a way around this. I do think democratic and election reforms are THE issue, but I'm not yet sold on this idea.
Haha, funny you should say that because it was my programmer boyfriend that came up with the idea XD
I had this idea many years ago, I'm also in the IT field, I think it's such a natural consequence of the Internet, it's UNDENIABLE.
Not much of a society, if one good hacker can destabilize it. I suppose you fashion it after the Wall Street?
Hello to you all!
it looks motivating?
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Real Direct Democracy software is live online at www.uponlocal.com It covers the world and is ready for use now
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E2D_International looks like the US is not even on the list yet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E2D_International
The Jamarahia of Libya and Gaddafi was the only true direct democracy.. They Had more than most western countries and achieved possibly the greatest humanitarian engineering project in the world history..AND WERE DEBT FREE. They were about to give Africa a debt free currency and telecomunications. They had a dream and blueprint for the world.. A lot can be learned from them..If there are any left..NATO rot in hell
http://www.greencharter.com/index.htm
Uk dd website http://www.1party4all.co.uk/
All for this
The problem with direct democracy is the tyranny of the majority (aka mob rule). If the majority votes to make Christianity the official religion, are you OK with that? How about if the majority votes that women should not be allowed to hold office? Or that Arab-Americans are second class citizens, or that we don't need to protect any endangered species?
All over the world, non-partisan electronic direct democracy (E2D) parties have been started independently at local, regional and national levels; inspired by the collaborative potential of the Internet to bring true democracy to the political arena, we are fighting to give decisional-making power back to the People.
Aktiv Demokrati, Sweden (national): http://aktivdemokrati.se/
Citizens for Direct Democracy, Belgium (national): http://www.directdemocracy.be
Democratici Diretti, Italy (national): http://www.democraticidiretti.it/
Demoex in Vallentuna, Sweden (local): http://demoex.net/en
Direct Democracy Party, New Zealand (cancelled): http://www.ddp.co.nz
Direkte Demokrati, Denmark (national): http://www.ddid.dk/
Hayeshira, Israel (national): http://hayeshira.org.il/
Online Party of Canada (national): http://www.onlineparty.ca/
Partido de Internet, Spain (national): http://partidodeinternet.es/
Online Reglemented Party, Romania (national): http://www.votdirect.ro
Party of Internet Democracy, Hungary (national): http://ide-ide.hu/
Senator Online, Australia (national): http://senatoronline.org.au/
Svojpolitik.si, Slovenia (national): http://svojpolitik.si/
Real democracy is coming soon to a country near you! Get involved today!
“There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come” - Victor Hugo
So much fear surrounding security of Direct Democracy...Yet look at our current system completely taken over and corrupt...John Adams didn't have internet and open source info... the Greeks weren't ready for it. I'm not about to let broken systems, old fears and hackers rip this rare opportunity to reclaim my sovereignty and take direct responsibility for our collective choices.
Representative Democracy has been the only kind of practical Democracy possible before the internet.
The reason our forefathers thought it was dangerous to have a direct democracy is because they did not have anything like the technology that we have today. The internet is the secret to providing open sourced factual verifiable information along with the power to vote INSTATLY for everyone - our forefathers had paper and ink and most people illiterate, Direct Democracy was simply not practical and not possible and dangerously open to manipulation, if done using pre-21st century technology.
Informed Direct Democracy, the process by which the average well informed real public opinion is brought to the attention of all, directly, is now obviously made possible by the internet. Just as we have secure online banking, shopping, chat, forums, libraries, dictionaries, and many other types of large online services and gathering places of opinions and facts, we can have direct voting on ISSUES that affect everyone, accompanied by direct FACTUAL open sourced information available to all so we can KNOW what the issues are and how the issues affect people. The idea that most people are incapable of making direct decisions in their communities, governments, and international affairs because of lack of abilities, information, and lack of a practical method, is no longer tolerable. Most people on Earth, are perfectly capable of making sound decisions about any political, environmental, social issue, IF the people are provided with factual free open sourced information about the issues. Most people have enough common sense and reasoning abilities to understand and reach very reasonable solutions to all the issues we, the people of Earth, face today on local levels as well as global levels. Having poor education, as the 1% have turned our public education system into their consumer-worker brainwashing, is not the same as being stupid; and being trusting, as most people are, is not the same as being gullible, and is a virtue, not a weakness to be exploited by the greedy 1%. Most people should trust each other to share control over society together, not give up our liberties to a system of greed made by the 1% that's causing famine, wars financial desperation, poor education, and the destruction of our planet, all for MORE PROFIT FOR THE 1%. The internet already offers EVERYTHING that is needed to have Informed Direct Democratic voting on issues everywhere. All that is needed is for people to organize a system. This system should be started by the 99% Occupy International Movement right NOW, while there is still time. In a few short years, the PEOPLE OF EARTH could be voting on local politics and local issues, and on issues that affect their country, and global issues that affect everyone. Let's not allow the 1% to make us out to be a petty and shallow and selfish and cowardly poor VS rich movement. It's not about taking down rich people, it's about taking down GREED itself; most rich people have the same capacity for being reasonable as most poor people do. A real economic recovery is not accomplished by restoring the health of the financial institutions, because they measure their recovery in profit; we need to eliminate GREED from the financial system, because too-big-to-fail corporations reporting record profits does not equal healthy fair economy. The people can come up with MUCH better solutions together online NOW! It's time to stop handing over our control and trusting our representatives to make policies that reflect the will of the people, which they never do. We now have a system of greed running all governments and societies on Earth. Having the ability to vote AND BE INFORMED WITH THE FACTS about the issues directly as a people can FORCE our corrupt and greedy leaders to make the will of the people a reality. After all, in a Democratic society, the government's job is simply to administrate the process by which the will of the people is formulated into a body of laws and policies, which MOST people agree with, and then protect the peoples' rights to have such a Democracy. The government is sort of the secretary and the bodyguard of the people, not the authority for the people to be forced to follow even when most people disagree with its policies and decisions. In a true Democracy, the PEOPLE are the authority of the government. MOST PEOPLE ARE REASONABLE, give most people the power of direct voting on issues, and we will have very REASONABLE policies, everywhere. Remember, the key is the FREE OPEN SOURCED INFORMATION (kind of like wikipedia) accompanying the voting sites on the internet. So when reporters come to ask protesters on the streets what we are protesting for, what do we want, what are your demands (as if we were robbing a bank or something) we can say: "WE THE PEOPLE OF EARTH DEMAND DIRECT INFORMED DEMOCRACY ENABLED BY OUR CURRENT COMMUNICATIONS TECHNOLOGY, WE DEMAND VOTING ON ISSUES THAT AFFECT PEOPLE DIRECTLY THROUGH THE INTERNET AND WE DEMAND THAT WE HAVE AN OFFICIAL OPEN SOURCED ONLINE LIBRARY OF FACTS ABOUT ALL THE ISSUES WE ARE VOTING FOR."
http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy-via-the-internet/
Where's the IT dude when you need one?
why not give up the secrete ballot?
if citizens vote publicly
no one can doctor the vote
The concept of participatory democracy is broader, because people can participate in decisions and the development of laws by the discussion of proposed legislation through community organizations, associations, NGOs, trade unions and many other groups of people power. Should also submit the most important decisions for the popular consultation through plebiscites, for now are elected representatives who eventually sold to the highest bidder and fail to represent the people
Lookup following for a workable alternative:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/home
Take a look at how California is doing with that. Not so good.
Dear freedom american fighters. I'm a romanain citizen and i want you to know that the main stream of liberation has to come from you, as in a small coutry like mine ruled by your army and the masons behind it, doing what you are doing would mean an external media and army attack, ocupation and lost of the country. On the other hand, by being a nuclear power, you can clean up the mess in America without being afraid of an external attack and you can therefore fight to clean up the chaos done mostly by the jews and their arab brothers, by their evil organisation, the masonry that stole all our political and administrative rulers, tycoons whose main goal is to take as many money as possible from your, our taxes and send them to Israel, Switzerland, Saudi Arabia and other main semites locations. The IMF represents Israel’s financial army by which the jews stole all our assets, the price of our unpaid work that they gave back to us the non semites as loans. We buy everything by borrowing our money that the jews don’t give us from our working places and than they chide us for making mortagages we can no longer pay back. They are affectively taking us out of our houses, shutting down out hospitals, schools, creating the environment in which we are forced to die, to fade away. Don’t forget that Israel was firstly recongnised in 1947 by Soviet Union and than by the USA, both capitalist and comunist systems been thus plainly representing Israel, the new empire: The Mason Empire, comprised by the two capitalist and comunist superpowers, Australia, Europe, Africa, the most parts of South America, Japan, etc. The main features of the Mason Empire? All the political, financial and adminstrative rulers have as their main goal to serve Israel and his other semite allies rallying among the main semite fiefs: Switzerland, Saudi Arabia, not to mention Israel...They are our masters nowadays, the dire masters over the american people, over the russian people, over the romanian people, over the all peoples of the Mason Empire. Our political rulers that are on power and opposition represent the same masonic and thus satanic organisation, the masonry in which the men swear allegiance to theTemple of Solomon, the evil king that abandoned God and indulged himself and the people in witchcraft, idolatry to other gods, killings, fornications while pretending to be a religious man. For them, the masons, God and other gods are the same thing, they are telling that publically, in a nutshel to bow to Satan is the same to bowing to God. There is no chance the fact that ateism was installed by the masons thru that evildoer mason, Darwin who in Galapagos filled monkey bones along with his father and grandfather in order to look like man’s bones and thus pretending they have proof of man coming out of monkey. Despite this deeds being unveilled by nowadays microscopes these bones are still exposed as ineluctible proofs of the man coming out of the monkey at the Smithsonian Museum. Unless you, us fight in the name of Biblical christianity we won’t succeed in our goal of liberating from the semites dictatorship very well represented by mason jews like Soros, Nobel, Rockefeller and so on. God speed! The romanian people is with you, but after so many years of ocupation we can not manifest explicitly, been forced to migrate from one place to another to survive and therefore no longer being united. You are the last rampart against the masonic rulers that want to killl all the peoples on Earth, except semites. It’s a tragedy that the people who wrote the Bible, the word of God, the people that gave the apostles, the main prophets, the Mesia killed most of these apostles, prophets and Mesia. As they say, nobody’s a prophet in his own country, but regardless of our being semites or not, black or whites, yelow or brown, thru the principles of God can forge up an undestructable body, people of God thru the ones that don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t fornicate, don’t make perjury and don’t crave for anything from their fellows, sweeping away these killers of prophets and their heirs that are nowadays dragging us down into slavery and death, fornication and savage society, into a society where killers and tramps have more rights upon us and even rule us all imposing these evil laws in which killers, whores and thieves are let alone to live among us and even rulling us the God’s rules obeying people. Don’t let yourselves being duped by the secret agents infiltrated among you and pushing you to do indecent or evil things in order to denigrate you, the last rampart against the Mason Empire ruled by the offsprings of the killers that assassinated semite prophets, apostles and Mesia.
I am also Romanian and know of all that you speak of. and I am so ashamed to be from the same country as you. At a time like this, and in a place like this for you to post this garbage, please let me tell you from the bottom of my heart, people like you are a severe MINORITY not the MAJORITY, this Direct Democracy movement is going to happen regardless of the existence of opinions like yours.
OKAY, LISTEN UP! I've read a lot of replies here.
The internet hacker problem and the "it would be a mess": Scrap the vote on internet. Every week there could be a voting at the local library for those who wanted to vote. The voting system in the library would not be hooked up to the internet, but in a closed system. The issues they would vote on could be determined by a poll on the internet. The 10 most popular/important issues would then be voted on in the library.
http://www.plainsite.org
Why not have a computer instead the judicial, legislator and executive powers. Let people decide their own faith through online voting. I would trust a computer over any politician.
Yes, good point. Nobody is going to give you democracy, you'll have to BE democracy. On this forum for starters. Every ten posts there's a list of demands, and another list, and another one, but you can't see a vote count on anything anywhere. That's stupid. You might as well skip the demand for democracy from your lists of demands, or all lists of demand for that matter.
Exactly, but a Focused Direct Democracy. Many more people will come to your side when you are proactive (for “new” Business & Government solutions), instead of reactive (against “old” Business & Government solutions), which is why what we most immediately need is a comprehensive “new” strategy that implements all our various socioeconomic demands at the same time, regardless of party, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves; that is, using a Focused Direct Democracy organized according to our current Occupations & Generations. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategically Weighted Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
because we need 100,000 “support clicks” at AmericansElect.org to support a Presidential Candidate -- such as any given political opportunist you'd like to draft -- in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Most importantly, remember, as cited in the first link above, that as Bank Owner-Voters in your 1 of 48 "new" Business Investment Groups (or "new" Congressional Committees) you become the "new" Congress replacing the "old" Congress according to your current Occupation & Generation, called a Focused Direct Democracy.
Therefore, any Candidate (or Leader) therein, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet; it's the STRATEGY – the sequence of steps – that the people organize themselves under, in Military Internet Formation of their Individual Purchasing & Group Investment Power, that's important. Sequence is key.
Why? Because there are Natural Social Laws – in mathematical sequence – that are just like Natural Physical Laws, such as the Law of Gravity. You must follow those Natural Social Laws or the result will be Injustice, War, etc.
The FIRST step in Natural Social Law is to CONTROL the Banks as Bank Owner-Voters. If you do not, you will inevitably be UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED by the Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government who have a Legitimate Profit Motive, just like you, to do so.
Consequently, you have no choice but to become Candidates (or Leaders) yourselves as Bank Owner-Voters according to your current Occupation & Generation.
So please JOIN the 2nd link, so we can make our support clicks at AmericansElect.org when called for by e-mail from the group in the 2nd link, and then you will see and feel how your goals can be accomplished within the strategy of the 1st link as a “new” Candidate (or Leader) of your Occupation & Generation.
We need to go beyond democracy. Direct Democracy is good but it depends on how it's done.
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Those 70% you refer to are the folks that pave your road, fix your cars, pickup your trash, drive goods to your stores etc, etc, etc. Without those people you would be out of luck. You miss a basic difference that some "educated" individuals are to quick to ignore. Educated does not mean intelligent!!!! And you put it very aptly, it doesn't take a rocket scientest to recognize and asshole! That gentleman on the street just might be more educated that you are. Talk about predjudice. You present yourself as one of the elite assholes this movement is fighting against!!!!!
We all deserve freedom - to vote, work, speak and be heard. Most of those people are intelligent, hard working and common sense "honest" people that I would be proud to elect into office.
I've mentioned that numerous times on other sites......Occupy can make that happen sooner.
We can't trust our electeds in either party anymore to represent the people.
All major decisions should be voted on by the masses....majority rules vote.
70% of Americans lack any college education whatsoever, regardless of how poorly they did in highschool. 25% didnt make it out of highschool.
Direct democracy would put those people in charge of policy making. Sounds brilliant.
What we should be doing is making it more difficult for people to vote instead of making sure the bum on the street isn't "disenfranchised" of his vote. What the hell does the bum on the street know about the asshole he is voting for?
Requiring voters to pass a basic civics test as a precondition to getting to the ballot box would go a long way towards making this country a better place for everyone, including the bum on the street.
Interesting how you are more concerned with keeping "uneducated" people away from the polls rather than trying to educate people and get them involved...
Here's the thing; given the history of poll taxes, "reading tests" and similar examples of such ideas in the House, I get very nervous about such measures because there is the very real possibility that such measures might throw the baby out with the bathwater. I would definitely argue that we belong cleaning up our edcuation system so that everyone has a basic understanding of US and world history, economics, and civics.
Imposing a civics test before you clean up education in this country is very dangerous, simply because not everyone you disenfranchise that way is a "bum on the street" who will vote for the first candidate to give him a hot meal. Many of them have interests that they are able to rationally articulate even if they don't understand all the intricacies of the government.
Oh, come on. College education doesn't mean you get common sense. Don't push this elitist bs.
You are right, but his point still stands about low-information voters, and the voter who is well read about current issues. Case in point: how were there so many voters for GW Bush in his second run?
Or how many people pulled the lever for a man who promised free health care without raising taxes. That was almost as good as, "I wont cum in your mouth", or "Ill respect you in the morning".
Direct democracy means opposite of Congress, where they have to vote right to win re-election that's next month. It implies a discussion of issues.
Re Bush: marketing and the party system, imo.
No, but are you really advocating for people who are ignorant of the issues they are voting for to be casting ballots, "just because"?
what do you mean "ignorant of the issues"?
the "uneducated" are not ignorant on the issues that directly effect them
I'll start with the extreme examples, but feel free to ratchet it up from there to where the line might be drawn.
In the 1980s the state could no longer afford to keep mental asylums open in California, so we turned all the fine folks with schizophrenia and other various mental disorders out onto our streets. They actually make up a healthy portion of the homeless in California. They are homeless because they do not have the basic mental faculties to brush their teeth, no less keep a job.
We don't permit these people to drive a car, or operate heavy machinery, yet somehow we think they are going to make informed decisions when they vote. They likely to vote for who they think the Democrat "Get out the vote" guy giving them a warm seat on a bus and a hamburger tells them to, since they nearly certainly know nothing about the issues and candidates on the ballot.
when I found out that I was schizophrenic....I was beside myself
I guess that answers the bugmagnet's question about Bush (above http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy/#comment-95510 )
But really, are there so many of those people to affect elections? It's gotta be every fifth, no less.
Some elections hinge on a couple hundred votes. The 2000 Bush/Gore election did, and it seems probable there was fraud on both sides. Whether the actual outcome would have been the same is unknown, but left and right should be able to agree that fraud played a part.
About the civics test, let me add this. I probably vehemently disagree with quite a few of the most highly educated people in our universities when it comes to politics, but I appreciate the fact they know the issues and have an informed opinion. These get out the vote campaigns that try and drive uninformed mobs to voting booths are bad for the democracy. Requiring proof of citizenship to vote when 12 million people work in this country illegally by means of identity theft (borrowed social security card) isn't an attempt to subvert democracy, its common sense.
I didn't get why you mention proof of citizenship, but I think if someone works in the country and lives there long enough has a legitimate right to voice one's opinion and vote.
Direct democracy implies absence of the party system, so it would not be that easy to sponsor those buses. Also, it depends on the voter's decision not to vote against self-interest. It's a cultural thing. Say, in Europe they have a culture of mass protests in the streets, which here they don't. Cultural things develop over time, if cultivated.
I suppose you forgot the "?"?
Anyway, direct democracy doesn't mean people voting whatever they want - there should be constitution that guarantees basic individual rights ( http://superunion.org/m/articles/view/One-Direction ). It also implies easy access to information and laws, and extensive debate. ( http://lawdelta.org )
Really, all it needs is kindness. I understand it must be hard for people that were brought up on the premise that greed is good. But have some faith. People are kind and generous, in general.
was the first line of this response necessary to transcend to the following statements ?
that was the answer to http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy/#comment-95525 , which you didn't see cause you were typing http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy/#comment-95620
I try not to use the word "you"
it causes unnecessary conflict to refer to the presenter as opposed to the subject
wasn't it you who was typing?
I try not to use the word "you"
it causes unnecessary conflict to refer to the presenter as opposed to the subject
sorry, dude, THEY were typing. or them? or whom?
btw, grammatically presenter is the subject, how about that?
The answer to division is Unity, the best way for us to become ONE is to Do As One, we can achieve that by breathing together synchronously. The word conspire comes from 2 Latin root words: con= with or together, and spirare = breathe. Therefore the true meaning of the word conspire is "to breathe together". Do As One, is a non-profit that promotes Unity by group synchronous breathing. On the website, www.doasone.org there are breathing rooms where we can synchronize our breath. Tomorrow, when this movement goes global, synchronous breathing could be just the thing we need to become One with the many.
The worrisome part of this post is that the OP may not be a Troll. He is advocating a new form of the Royal Elite. This screw ball can't possibly be a US citizen.
Don't you, guys, know it's rude to talk about someone who is present in third person?
He is exemplary of the ignorance I am talking about. Its actually completely common right here in the good ol' USA. They come out of grade school this way.
http://lawdelta.org
“I cast my vote, perchance, as I think right; but I am not vitally concerned that that right should prevail. I am willing to leave it to the majority. Its obligation, therefore, never exceeds that of expediency. Even voting for the right is doing nothing for it. It is only expressing to men feebly your desire that it should prevail. A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance, nor wish it to prevail through the power of the majority. There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men.” -Henry David Thoreau
“Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either. … Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history. Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence, and cruelty. When clear prospects are opened before vanity, pride, avarice, or ambition, for their easy gratification, it is hard for the most considerate philosophers and the most conscientious moralists to resist the temptation” -John Adams
“"Democratic" decision making is a means for finding and implementing the will of the majority; it has no other function. It serves, not to encourage diversity, but to prevent it.” -David Friedman
“It has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.” -Alexander Hamilton
“Democracy passes into despotism.” “A good decision is based on knowledge and not on numbers.” -Plato
Great collection. However, Friedman's is the only modern quote, and "It serves, not to encourage diversity, but to prevent it." is obviously wrong, which is proved by the success of, say, Wal-Mart.
P.S. Great to see the proper quotation marks, thanks.
I wanted to get a decent cross section of time. Plato, founding fathers, Thoreau (civil war), Friedman.
What he means is that the voice of the minority is squelched by the majority, so any allowance for diversity, for the voice of the minority, gets ruled out by default. At least, that's how I understand it.
If you believe most people to be at least reasonable, if not intelligent and wise - I do, then Direct Democracy would work fine. The genious minority will have to simply impress the rest of us with their ideas and then the reasonbility of the majority would take the minority group's idea and it would be implemented. The negative minorities, the haters, the control freaks, the bigots, will simply NOT impress the majority with their BS very well, certainly not as much as positive ideas coming from other minority groups that have positive ideas that the majority can easily see the possitive consequences of.
I think it sounds nice and generous but doesn't sound based on any real world evidence. Which people are reasonable? The ones who smoke? We've got plenty of logical evidence to show the laundry list of negatives. The fat ones? We've got a shit ton of evidence of the health consequences of being overweight. Buying a house too big? Overlarge debt? I don't see a lot of reason in the way most anyone behaves most of the time. How many advertisements on television play to the reason? How many to the emotions? People are irrational, emotional creatures.
You sir, may simply represent the minority of unreasonable ones :)
Probably true.
(correction: one founding father :-) That's how I understand it also. But I disagree that the majority will be so eager to intervene into minority issues.
ha. fair enough.