Forum Post: Debtor Prisons in the USA. Have you heard about them?
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 22, 2011, 12:45 p.m. EST by DKAtoday
(33802)
from Coon Rapids, MN
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I believe that Debtor Prisons were IL-legalized in the USA.
So why are people in debt. being allowed to be placed in prison?
Just exactly what is wrong with the judicial system that this practice would be allowed, condoned, supported? Check the news ( on-line, you won't get it from corp. media ), this is not a small practice. There are hundreds of victims to date and the practice is growing.
People we are being attacked from all sides, by the corrupt and the greedy.
It is way past time that we band together and demand change.
Question: How much worse does it need to get before we all start acting together in our defense, in defense of the USA?
Here's one link on it that you can check out NOW. http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/12/13/388303/the-return-of-debtors-prisons-thousands-of-americans-jailed-for-not-paying-their-bills/
also a thank you from Sen. Bernie Sanders ( please share )
Dear Friend,
Thank you for signing the petition supporting The Saving American Democracy Amendment. The outpouring of support from you and tens of thousands of others sends a loud and clear message that the American people want to undo the disastrous 5-4 Citizens United Supreme Court decision. We must stop corporations from spending unlimited sums of money, without disclosure, to influence Americans elections. American democracy is not for sale.
Reverse the Citizens United decision.The Constitution is an extraordinary document. It has served our country well for more than two centuries. In my view, however, this is one of those rare times when a constitutional amendment is the only way to save the democracy that our founders created.
Passing a constitutional amendment will not be easy and it will not happen tomorrow. It is a long and difficult process and there will be many bumps along the road. Like other great struggles in our modern history – women's rights, civil rights, environmental protection, etc. – we will need to bring millions of Americans together to demand that Congress and state legislatures represent the needs of ordinary Americans, and not just the wealthy and powerful.
The promise of democracy -- the essential democracy this amendment is directed at protecting – is that the ultimate power in our nation rests with its people, and not with corporations or even elected officials. Our joint effort to defend this nation's democratic electoral process is something that speaks to what being an American is about, and something we should be very proud of.
I hope you ask your friends to sign the petition. And if you aren't already a subscriber to The Bernie Buzz, we'll sign you up for the electronic newsletter to keep you posted on what's happening to the amendment and other news in Washington. (If you do not wish to receive the Bernie Buzz, you may unsubscribe below.)
Sincerely, Bernie U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders
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Want to sign the petition? Click http://sanders.enews.senate.gov/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=2100081904.557411.411&gen=1&mailing_linkid=34578
Why do most citizens in America have to be almost slapped silly in the face before they ever recognize a threat to their liberty, freedom, lives and the lives of their children and other loved ones?
"It's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything."
-Fightclub
If everyone had a touch of Tyler Dirden syndrome... we could be better off. Or we'd all just have black eyes when we go to work. Tomorrow Raymond K Hessle will have the best breakfast of his entire life.
YOU ARE NOT YOUR FUCKING KHAKIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo-wkv8gW6k
The so-called experts and pundits were saying the same thing about the people of Ukraine, labeling them "PASSIVE, APATHETIC", etc. .... just a few weeks before the Orange Revolution erupted in all its glory!
Just give Americans a little more time to wake up from their JUNK-TV-INDUCED-TRANCE....
I think for many it is a matter of too much stress. Until things start getting bad enough for them to realize that they have to do something.
The powers want us to work and worry with no time to think about revolutionary change. No wonder the jobless with time on their hands are the first to speak up. Those with decent jobs may never.
I was just sent a very interesting link on the Infrastructure Report Card. I think you will find it interesting as well. I've only taken a quick look so far but I think it has real potential for supporting our cause for change.
http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/
Looks good. Krugman says it too.
A Slump Is A Good Time To Invest In Infrastructure
"Multiplier issues aside, funding is cheap, and many of the resources you would use would otherwise be unemployed. There’s really a compelling argument that we should be doing a lot of public investment right now."
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/a-slump-is-a-good-time-to-invest-in-infrastructure/
Check this out a real fuel cell company. Who knew?
http://www.fuelcellenergy.com/
Revolution... is coming.
Is happening.
Its just hard to tell sometimes as these things can get underway slowly.
Fear, propaganda and lies via their corporate controlled media!
Because the were notified to "appear in court" , they didn't and as a result a "bench warrant" was issued for their arrest and not because they "owed money".
You know, sort of like not appearing in court for a "traffic violation" , not payint the traffic fine when you are required to do so.
It's because they expect the "government" to provide them their "liberty and freedom". They have been brainwashed by the government schools into thinking "goverment is great, government is good, government will provide for you and you don't have to worry about a thing".
Don't attract the law, attract the system that created the law. The best defense, is an offense-
Stop trying to cure symptoms- go after the cause of the problems. The cause is corruption in national, state and world government - unless that is changed- humanity;s suffering will continue to worsen.
Thanks for that.
Perhaps you would then be willing to read & consider Bernie Sanders Petition request ( link attached above ) and sign it if you find it has merit.
We need to take meaningful action as it presents itself. Then we need to share it and get it circulated. It is the only way that we will start banding together to take meaningful action and start the process of change. To hell with differences in political party, lets act in everyone's best interest and show the world how the non-partisan can get things done.
I am already in a debtor's prison, it is called an apartment complex.
Actually, apartments are tool sheds for the wealthy. Sorry, but it's true.
I call them bee hives, or human storage units.
Yes apartment living can be quite lovely.
If you're ever a defendant on a bs civil suit, and find out that your opponent is a crook/friend of the justice system, then you will soon become a firm believer in justice for all. Everyone who's "in the know", can "get away with murder", not just the crook, and they all have to work together. It's reasonable to think corruption will never affect you personally.
I think you meant the in-justice system. But I get your point. That is why we find ourselves here today. Trying to get people to band together and unite in self-defense.
Justice for all, is all I meant. I edited it. It got me thinking: Justice "for me", "for us", and even the semi-sacred, "the people", is often what's wanted. The "injustice" against me was a wake up call to me concerning how crook/friends of the government, (great and small), have and will operate. Their side will always win as long as they know how the judge's hands got dirty.
Point taken.
106,045 have signed Bernie Sanders' petition!
Lets see if it can hit the millions. Then we will know without a doubt that things are beginning to move in the right direction.
Circulate and share people of the USA.
Lets all take non-partisan action, and kick some partisan butt.
I was unemployed and got behind on child support. They hauled me into court and the judge said I had two weeks to come up with thousands of dollars I didn't have or he'd throw me in prison.
I said, "Their are no debtors prisons in this country so you can't put me in jail for being unable to pay a bill."
He leaned forward over the big desk, cracked a huge, sarcastic grin, and said, "While it is true there are no debtors prisons in this country, you have been ordered by the court to make a payment. Not paying it is contempt of court, for which you can go to prison."
It was at that moment that I realized everything I had been taught in grade school about the Constitution was bullshit. That is the moment when the US was no longer a great country to me. The reality killed my patriotism.
All the flag wavers out there have been brainwashed. Maybe a little prison time for being unemployed would wake them up too.
The fact that they will throw someone in prison rather than attaching their taxes or paycheck is a real injustice. How can someone pay what they owe if they are in jail? You can't believe that someone could work it off on prison pay.
Take action. See samples of how below.
183,361 signatures so far for Bernie Sanders petition as of 10:15am central time 01/15/2012
http://sanders.enews.senate.gov/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=2100081904.557411.411&gen=1&mailing_linkid=34578
The petition to save abandoned houses has 15 signatures. We picked one up at around 9:50pm 01/13/2012. Were just rolling right along.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Savingpeople-savinghomes-payingdowntheNationaldeficit/
Here is a place where you can directly address change. Take part, it does not hurt and may very well heal/help. Forward the cause of reform and rebirth.
http://www.care2.com/go/z/e/Ag8nw/zL2Q/B18Bb
Sierra Club has some good things to take part in as well. Set-up and ready for you to take part in. http://sierraclub.org/
Here is a place where you can directly address change. Take part, it does not hurt and may very well heal/help. Forward the cause of reform and rebirth.
http://www.care2.com/go/z/e/Ag8nw/zL2Q/B18Bb
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That is so misleading. She didn't go to jail because she owed a debt, she went to jail because she failed to appear in court. The fact that she says she didn't know they had filed a lawsuit against her is irrelevant. A bench warrant was issued for failure to appear. If your going to put something out there to prove a point atleast make it a valid example.
A more balanced view is provided in the Wall Street Journal article that spawned a bevy of reposts on the Internet. It can be read at http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704396504576204553811636610.html .
Several state legistlatures, including the Republicans in Washington, are moving to ban the practice, and the Federal Trade Commission is apparently taking notice of the practice.
In general, the debtor ends up being arrested not because they owe, but because they failed to appear or otherwise failed to abide by a court order. The practice is nevertheless egregious, and governments are moving to ban and limit the practice.
It's not egregious at all. What you are saying in effect is, that if you don't show up for court, you should not be arressted? The cop on the street doesn't always know what the charges are only that you have a warrent for failure to appear. So the next time a rape suspect doesn't show up for court the cop should just say, well ok, I don't know why your wanted but I'll let you go this time?
If you read the article I linked to above, you'll see that even the major debt collection agencies see this practice as wrong and are moving to stop it's use. If you would bother to read the materials, you'd find that many of the folks affected don't even know there has been finding against them; the debt agencies simply go to a friendly judge who rules the person does owe them money and makes a summary judgment that results in the person being in violation of a court order they never even knew existed. To understand this, you need to understand the difference between how a criminal court and a civil court operates; the debt collectors are abusing the civil court process to effect what is essentially debtors prison.
We all know that there are some who willfully ignore rulings of the courts, and those people should be locked up. We just need to make sure it's fair and that the people were informed someone was suing them in civil court before issuing a ruling that could result in their imprisonment.
Lets hope it happens soon. This misuse of the Judicial system can not be allowed to continue ( and it should be ban and not limit ).
I certainly agree with that. The absence of debtor prisons is one of the very few vestiges of morality regarding the poor in our Capitalist system.
All the more reason to feed awareness.
Yep, and sustain the free press. Kudos to WSJ and the other reporters, including yourself, for keeping this in the public's view.
Thank you for your participation and contribution in doing the same.
You know I am running into people that are being very short-sighted on this subject. They read one article and think that the only reason people are in jail (who are in debt) is because they failed to go to court. While that certainly has been the way for one to end up in jail; Times are a changing, and changing fast.
I have read quite a number of articles on this topic and imprisoning people because of debt is happening more and more. Certain states are allowing this to go on, despite the fact that debtor prisons have been done away with in this country since the 1830's. While there are no debtor prisons per se, PEOPLE ARE ENDING UP IN JAIL BECAUSE OF DEBT (all done by the trickery of their debtors).
To the naysayers, do you really believe that the banks would allow people to default on loans or people not pay off their credit card debt? In these bad economic times,THEY know that people may not have the money and that more and more people will not be paying what they own. They are very mindful of the law of statutes that each state has (in many it is six years for debt payoff), and they will do whatever it takes to recoup some of that money.
I tell you with the direction this country is going in, and in the wake of a new law that says it is okay to arrest americans suspected of terrorism (no charge and due process) and hold them indefinitely in a military prison. Why does the return of debtor prisons sound so far fetch to you nayayers? People are NOT STUPID for believing in the return of debtor prisons. They are just reading the signs of the time. These banks and companies will stoop to whatever level to recoup some money. They know how to get around the law to do this. And I am sure that they are down in Congress pushing for a lift of the federal ban on debtor prisons. Mark my words, we probably be seeing some bill in the near future in regards to this. By jailing people for their debts, they can create a free labor force where the poor will have to work off their debt. Don't think this could happen? Think again.
Wake up and smell the coffee naysayers!!!
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/12/13/388303/the-return-of-debtors-prisons-thousands-of-americans-jailed-for-not-paying-their-bills/
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/return-debtors-prisons-collection-agencies-now-want-deadbeats-172417607.html
http://www.aclu.org/prisoners-rights-racial-justice/penny-rise-americas-new-debtors-prisons
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/06/opinion/06mon4.html
You, the person who owes money are the 'debtor'. The person or company you owe money to is the 'creditor'.
Yes smell the coffee indeed and then get on the phone and get in touch with reality.
Some have been trying to defend the arrests with saying that it was done due to contempt of court for not appearing. I've always understood these failures to appear in court as being an automatic loss of the suit not a reason for a contempt citing.
In my state, they just dump summons in the mailbox and not have the person who it was intended for sign off on it. I have received summons over the years that were not meant for me, but someone who previously lived at my residence. I went out of my way to make sure it got back to the law firm, but I really did not like how casually they handled the delivery of those summons.
My point is that they could have sloppily sent out a summons (or say they did) that you never received and ofcourse have no knowledge of. Then one day you are pulled over for let say speeding or whatever and find out that there is a warrant out for your arrest. This is what is going on.
While it use to be an automatic loss of your case, in certain states they are going beyond this and just having people thrown into court for not showing up in court. This used to be rare, but it is happening more and more. http://www.ehow.com/about_7496629_can-go-jail-debt.html
Certified mail, signature on receipt should be a requirement, a show of proof that the individual did receive the summons. But it should be a receipt signed and returned off of the court document itself. Not a card you can attach to any letter.
Exactly! That is the way it should be.
However, what is to stop some of these shady banks/companies from saying that you did sign it? After all, they must have your signature on some docs. If they are really shady, they could just forge it onto the receipt. Anyway, I don't want to go too far down this road. I hate having to think this way.
Not a problem. If consideration is not given. Then we may as well be standing against a wall.
117,323 Bernie Sanders petition signatures as of 2:42 pm today 01/02/2012
117,725 as of 8:55 am 01/03/2012
118,875 petition signatures at 2:30pm 01/03/2012
129,260 petition signatures at 9:00am 01/04/2012
There are no "debtor's prisons". You cannot be imprisoned for debt, a civil matter. Debt is not a criminal matter. You can, however, be picked up and hauled in for contempt of court if you miss your court date.
For those of you just checking in.
Don't forget to petition the Justice Department to start prosecuting the economic criminals. There has to be accountability.
This is why we are here this is why you are needed.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/inside-job-documentary/
Share, circulate, educate, inspire.
See also people from all walks of life, from all over the political map "not" supporting a party or leader or group of leaders but "supporting an Ideal".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Bgqt1YYko
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/22/debtors-prison-legal-in-more-than-one-third-of-us-states_n_1107524.html
This is a very good topic that I think this forum should pay more attention to. I think we are going to see more and more people in jail for not paying off debt. People who have no criminal record and are generally law-abiding citizens will end up in jail. There is something very wrong with that.
There is definitely something wrong with a justice system that supports this activity.
I guess it has to do with a for-profit prison system. They are making money off of sending people to jail over any little thing.
Did you catch this excellent article that someone posted on their thread a month ago. http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/30-signs-that-the-united-states-of-america-is-being-turned-into-a-giant-prison This is what is happening--America is becoming one big prison.
Well it goes along way towards the Corrupt/Greedy recouping some of their loss from doing business in China for cheap labor. It provides a large captive work force that you pay practically nothing for. Just think if they can keep the prisoners there until they have paid off their debt.
Yes, this country has a long-time love affair with cheap labor (and even free labor). I am reminded of the slavery in this country. The new kind of slavery in this country will be debt slavery, and yes they will be getting cheap labor out of those Americans who are in debt. This is a disgusting betrayal of the American people.
The set up is there for millions of Americans to fall into debt (even the most disciplined among us). If our jobs are being outsourced by the millions overseas, and jobs are becoming more and more scare here, and for those who do have jobs they have to deal with suppressed wages, and the prices of just about everything keeps going up and up--then how are people suppose to make ends meet?
I am completely disgusted over this whole idea of debtor's prisons. This country is going down a very bad road when this becomes the norm. For shame!
That is why I would like to see the Documentary: Inside Job go viral. It shows without a doubt where the bodies are buried and why the public needs to take action starting now.
I saw the trailer to the Inside Job. I will try to see it very soon. I've been a little busy lately.
On the subject of Debtor's prisons; I came across an article yesterday. FEMA has been trying to go after people that took an overpayment from them. There were of course those who knew that they didn't deserve the money and spent it, but there were also innocent people who needed the money and thought FEMA was helping them out. Now FEMA is harassing them to repay the money (which in most cases the people don't have). It makes me think about he you-know-what camps. I am keeping my eyes and ears open about that--I don't think it is a conspiracy theory. Not when we have NDAA on the verge of being signed by the President. Anyway, here is the article http://news.yahoo.com/6-years-later-katrina-victims-fight-fema-debts-162847221.html
Unfortunately, in the case of overpayment of gov't funds, you cannot apply the laws of the FDCPA if a debt collector pursues repayment because it isn't a consumer purchase.
Thanks for the article.
Your very welcome. I am looking for some of your other posts that I like to see at the top of the list. The spam is over the top on this forum.
Thanks. I know I sent off a complaint to the web site ( address at bottom of screen ). So I have also been trying to stay active on keeping good post alive. Though I have not been real active today ( sick day ). But I had to stop in and see what has been going on and I'm glad I did.
I will need to recover some more before I dive back in to things, but now have much to look forward to.
Oh, I hope you feel better. Get some rest.
I want to apologize if it seems that I am inundating you with lost of replies. I just want to keep the conversation going and most importantly get your posts up there on the top of the board. We have to fight to protect this site,the trolls, detractors and spammers are working overtime to bring it down. It really ticks me off what they are doing.
They are a part of the problem, not the solution.
Thanks. It is not something I will get over, it's just some days are worse than others.
I don't mind responding to messages. Just as long as I don't need to do any heavy lifting right now ( thinking ). Because I agree that it is essential to keep good material in view. So I thank you for your efforts.
Only one good thing about these attacks is it shows we are more then a small concern for the corrupt/greedy.
Oh, I am sorry to hear this. I hope that there will be many more better days to come for you. I'll will keep you in my prayers.
Hang in there. We are doing something right because they are all "shooting" at us (just a crazy saying my friend always says).
I want our children to have some sense of security.
Likewise.
Well and that is what I believe we are seeing today. The long slumbering are starting to awake, and those who have been running the show on autopilot up till now do not like it, not one little bit.
Well, I hope they fully wake up soon. We can't afford to keep going down this road.
I want to be proud of my country again.
Knowing is half the battle. That is a funny trip down memory lane.
The truly unfortunate thing is, is that people do know, but they are so stressed out that they don't want to think about it, much less deal with it.
I wish these people realized by turning a blind eye to the realities around us--it only makes things worse in the end. There will come a time, where they can't ignore it and by then usually things are well into the advanced stages. The old saying by Martin Niemöller which is used very heavily on this forum is true.
First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
That's the good thing fighting for what is right and good, along with knowing and understanding that there is a difference. Knowing is a blessing in itself.
Don't laugh, but as you said knowing is a blessing in itself, I thought of the old G.I. Joe cartoon where at the end they had some tip about dealing with something and they always said" Knowing is half the battle."
I guess there are a lot of people out there who are not "in the know". They need to open their eyes to the realities around them.
Thank you for the prayers and good thoughts.
Well I won't let the attacks slow me down I need something useful and productive to do with my time anyway and this is the best thing going.
Advocating for positive change/growth it does not get better than that.
Your most welcome.
Yes, I agree with what you said. We are part of something bigger than our selves, and most importantly we are part of the solution--not the problem.
You along with the rest of the people who believe this are just plain "stupid".
They weren't arrested for "owning money" they were arrested for "not showing up in court" and a "bench warrant" was issued.
You know, like when you are in a automobile accident and you are required to appear in court and if you don't a "bench warrant will be issued for "your arrest".
NPR sure likes to push the "emotion button" and as a result people cant think logically.
This is why we are here this is why you are needed.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/inside-job-documentary/
Share, circulate, educate, inspire.
This is really sad and an indicator that we are going backwards as a society. Debtor prisons were done away with in the 1830's in this country.
I was just curious about how many people in the U.S. is in debt and a breakdown of the debt.
Credit Cards National average credit card debt per household is $15,799. (Source: Federal Reserve's report on consumer credit, July 2011) 84 percent of undergraduates have credit cards, and the average undergrad has $2,200 in credit card debt. Additionally, they will amass almost $20,000 in student debt. (Source: Sallie Mae, "How Undergraduate Students Use Credit Cards," April 2009)
Student Loan Debt The average student loan debt is over $25K (this is a 5% increase from what graduates in 2009 owed when the graduated). Check out this CNN article. http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/03/pf/student_loan_debt/index.htm
Mortgage According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the average price for a new home sold in the United States in 2009 was $270,900.
National Real Estate Trends 1,389,842 Foreclosure Homes | *$172,488 Average Foreclosure Sales Price (Realtytrac)
Car Loans
A quarterly analysis of trends in the auto industry by the TransUnion credit-reporting company shows the size of the average U.S. auto loan rose to $12,602 in the fourth quarter of 2010.
Anyone just want to get the statistics our there.
Need a break to recharge a little? Click on the link and watch.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/do-you-need-a-break-take-10-minutes-and-remind-you/
So many ways to get in trouble, and those are just a few.
I was looking for a figure of how many Americans were in debt (of some kind or the other) and all I keep hearing is most Americans are in debt. Well, let's see here. There are about 312 million Americans in this country. The adult population is around 237 million. So if most means let's say 80% of that figure--good help us!
Yes, in this day and age it really doesn't take much to get in trouble with debt. There is practically very little job security out there. Unless you have a union job or are a very valued employee or very well-connected one at that--there really isn't any job security.
Hence the unbelievable stress of living paycheck to paycheck and wondering how long you are going to make it.
God have mercy. Please.
Yes, it is very stressful. It doesn't help that the price of things keep going up and up, while our incomes have been suppressed.
Also,our pathetic congress that can't do anything to help the American people, as they agree on nothing. However, when it comes to Fascist bills like NDAA--no problem!
God have mercy on us, indeed.
Goodnight. It is getting late for me. Will chat tomorrow.
And so I pray and wait, while trying to do as much good as I can. Trying to support and encourage others to do the same, and to never give up.
Amen. Keep fighting the good fight until the very end.
I will talk to you soon again. Good night.
God bless, our savior protect and good night to you as well.
Well, this week Barack Obama has turned back the clock to 1775 by signing the NDAA. So now you can expect a return to the same type of British tyranny that existed in the American colonies prior to 1776.
I don't know. That sounds like a pretty sunny bit of optimism to me.
I vote for the Senator.
I'm not so sure about the debtors prison thing - it doesn't seem to be happening in Vermont.
And I never ever voted for bushite
But I have signed the Senator's petition.
here:
Sanders Proposed Constitutional Amendment:
Sanders Petition here:
Rep. Deutch's amendment discussed here:
and you can read repelican reaction here.
I know you have dial-up but if you get the opportunity, you really should access that link following my intro post above.
Here it is again: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/12/13/388303/the-return-of-debtors-prisons-thousands-of-americans-jailed-for-not-paying-their-bills/
I see - the collection agency sues ya, and when you fail to appear in court the court issues a bench warrant for your arrest.
Very clever.
So let us sue Goldman Sux . . .
That's a thought, but 1st we need to find willing judges. Then we could probably use NDAA against them as well.
That's not a movie is it?
Lets see . . .
No its an article. But I know from past experience that even they can be slow to load.
it was,
interesting though
Thanks it is a scary thing and it is spreading, I'm starting to see references all over Twitter.
Please check it out and share.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/12/13/388303/the-return-of-debtors-prisons-thousands-of-americans-jailed-for-not-paying-their-bills/
Remember this song?
How can people be so heartless............How can people be so cruel...
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We do not have a "debtor prison" system in this country. No one that I know of has ever gon to "prison" for owing money".
Do you know of anyone?
I could lie and say that I know people, but I'm not like that. It does not mean that it is not happening.
Here check it out for yourself.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/12/13/388303/the-return-of-debtors-prisons-thousands-of-americans-jailed-for-not-paying-their-bills/
They are not being jailed because of what they owe, they are being jailed because the failed to appear in court and a "bench warrant" was issued.
Now, if they appeared in court, then they wouldn't have been arrested. It's amazing how NPR twists the truth.
Why is it that when you do not pay your debts, it is always because someone greedy or corrupt put you in debt? Really? There are so many variables that cause this situation and the one you drew is ONLY one. What about those who willingly go into debt and have no intentions of paying? Or those who had a bit of bad luck in health or natural disasters? I personally was almost buried because an insurance company would not pay on a health claim. that left me crippled for 5 months. How do we show accountability? On a side note, what types of debt that are not paid, put you in prison? (Tax, child support, Fines for law violation...?) I know of a few, but what others are there?
You can get in debt many ways as you pointed out with your example of being laid up for 5 months. From the sound of it you just need a creditor coming after you, who can tap a willing judge to have you arrested. Like a creditor from a bank that issued you a loan that they new fully well up-front that you could not possibly pay ( you know a maker of a fraudulent loan, see bank crises for reference ).
What part of this is the debtors responsibility? It took me four years to get out of the debt hell I was in while dealing with creditors, lawyers, banks, insurance companies etc. I am not saying there are not crooked bankers and lenders out there, I am saying that the debtor has to take some form of responsibility. What would you propose?
I lost my job, and had a debt (my home) to begin with. I refrained from using credit cards @ 0% until emergency. I racked up debt, paid it off once back to work. Lost another temp job, had to use cards again as cushion. I exhausted savings, retirement, life insurance etc. I got a subcontractor job, started gaining ground again, and my employer (business owner) started to not pay me in timely manner, 1 to 2 mos for some accounts before getting paid rather than weekly, then bi-weekly. He said he wasn't getting paid so neither are you until he does. I had to still fuel my tank, buy supplies for the jobs, etc. I had to keep going until I got paid or could find something else. He also had gambling problem, which later I found out. As a couple of mos went by, I started falling behind, then wack - the credit cards jacked my 0% rate to 25-30% fees, lowered limits not even close to maxing right over what was owed, caused overlimit fees, and now thousands behind. My $60-$100 minimum that I was paying well over @ 0% became $300+, another month behind and almost $1K! I may have to go bankrupt, and never planned on this. I got through one year and paid it all down, but this past year I got the shaft because of my employer. It was not my fault. Should I go to prison? I had 849 credit score and almost $250K available to use and I lost all credit because of a couple of cards I am not even close to that. See what I mean? Use it for emergency and as soon as they find out you are underemployed or behind on anything they put the screws to you.
Predatory lending you have got to love it. Let's kick-em while they're down, see how far we can snowball this thing. How many years in prison do you think we can get-em? Think about all that cheap labor, if they are to work it off in prison, how many years do you think it will take? Think of the labor savings that could be realized. WoW!!!!!!!!!!! One problem though. Does that mean we have to feed them?
Seems they want people to fail at paying their bills, so they can be sent to jail to make military equipment at slave wages.
Or be held hostage until friends and family can buy their way out?
OH yeah that too! Which means I really have no chance...
Do you really believe that?
I find it rather strange that in 2008 I was given a pretty high credit card, I know a few people. And my credit sucked.
Absolutely, since rates were low banks had to find other places to invest and the high rates of credit cards are attractive.
I meant high limit.
I have a bunch of posts on this, yes, I believe they want slave prison labor, China is just not cheap enough labor to the greedy.
Plus many business's are finding out that the Chinese don't recognize patented property. Then they find that the Chinese don't care about copy-write infringement or industrial espionage. They are finding out that it is all good to the Chinese to them it's business as usual. So they are finally finding out to a small extent what getting screwed feels like and they've found that they don't like it.
So what can we do creatively on the home front to create vast amounts of cheap labor? Hhmmmmmmmm.
Actually really good points.
Yeah their finding out that sometimes it sucks when the shoe is on the other foot.
"The Trade Commission study surveyed U.S. businesses and found that an estimated $48 billion in revenue was lost in 2009 due to intellectual property violations from China. An even higher estimate was realized when the commission used a statistical model rather than the survey model, with findings that up to 2.1 million U.S. jobs could be supported if China were to substantially increase its intellectual property enforcement."
http://www.intellectualpropertynews.com/patent-news/intellectual-property-infringement-in-china-costs-us-jobs/
And here I thought slave laborers in FEMA Camps were just going to make military equipment...
Well there is always a good market ( if you can call it that ) for materials of war. It has always been a Booming ( pun intended ) Business for many Corporations. Tons of money especially at the profiteering prices they get paid.
"Prisoners earning 23 cents an hour in U.S. federal prisons are manufacturing high-tech electronic components for Patriot Advanced Capability 3 missiles, launchers for TOW (Tube-launched, Optically tracked, Wire-guided) anti-tank missiles, and other guided missile systems. A March article by journalist and financial researcher Justin Rohrlich of World in Review is worth a closer look at the full implications of this ominous development. (minyanville.com)
The expanding use of prison industries, which pay slave wages, as a way to increase profits for giant military corporations, is a frontal attack on the rights of all workers. "
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25376
I had many posts about this, they have disappeared.
Just think about the confidence level of our troops going into battle to know that their equipment and arms were made by criminals performing slave labor. Just because it says made in the USA does not mean it's a good thing.
True criminals ( murderers, rapists ) or not ( debt. detainees ). This is not good business.
Yep. I mean, REALLY good points...
Thanks. I hope you don't mind but I like to ask from time to time ( quite often actually ) That when you come across something good that you please copy and share it with others, to help spread education, awareness, and motivation to take part. When I started this post ( where we are "here" ) I also copied the link and Twittered it. So hopefully it is getting a wider distribution already. But if everyone does it and it is easy, well then some things might go viral.
Oh, please! In most prisons the prisoners are lying around bored when they're not lifting weights.
This is by design. Some are forced to work slave labor as activity. Others conscientiously object to the slave labor, and choose to remain in their cells.
The only problem with this thought is that since labor prices in China are rising, manufacturing is moving to the local areas. Just yesterday Honda announced they are adding production to their US plants because they are so efficient.
Prisoners make like 25 cents a day in the US. Cheaper than China, is it not?
Important: Note the statute of limitations for debt collection in your state and the facts as outlined in this article and in the comments section following it: STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS FOR DEBT COLLECTION STATE BY STATE: http://www.creditinfocenter.com/rebuild/statuteLimitations.shtml (SCROLL DOWN FOR STATE BY STATE CHARTS)
(COMMON OR GENERAL /IE:FOR CONTRACTS, INJURY OR PROPERTY DAMAGE) http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/statute-of-limitations-state-laws-chart-29941.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704396504576204553811636610.html
By JESSICA SILVER-GREENBERG
Some lawmakers, judges and regulators are trying to rein in the U.S. debt-collection industry's use of arrest warrants to recoup money owed by borrowers who are behind on credit-card payments, auto loans and other bills.
More than a third of all U.S. states allow borrowers who can't or won't pay to be jailed. Judges have signed off on more than 5,000 such warrants since the start of 2010 in nine counties with a total population of 13.6 million people, according to a tally by The Wall Street Journal of filings in those counties. Nationwide figures aren't known because many courts don't keep track of warrants by alleged offense. In interviews, 20 judges across the nation said the number of borrowers threatened with arrest in their courtrooms has surged since the financial crisis began.
The backlash is a reaction to sloppy, incomplete or even false documentation that can result in borrowers having no idea before being locked up that they were sued to collect an outstanding debt. The debt-collection industry says such errors are extremely rare, adding that warrants usually are sought only after all other efforts to persuade borrowers to pay have failed.
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Andrew Spear for The Wall Street Journal PAY UP, OR LOCKED UP: Jeffrey Stearns, of Indiana, spent two nights in jail over a $4,024.88 debt. Earlier this month, Washington state's House of Representatives passed by a 98-0 vote a bill that would require companies to provide proof a borrower has been notified about lawsuits against them before a judge could issue an arrest warrant. All 42 Republicans voted for the legislation, which is expected to pass the state's Senate and be signed into law by the governor. A trade group representing debt collectors supports the bill and says the changes are needed because some companies are abusing Washington's existing law by improperly arresting borrowers.
In Florida, training this week for dozens of new judges and sitting judges who are moving to courts with the power to lock up borrowers includes a session about potential abuses of debt-related warrants. "Before we take away a person's freedom, we want to ensure that there are procedural safeguards," said Peter Evans, a Palm Beach County, Fla., state-court judge who proposed the session.
Some judges elsewhere are issuing fewer debt-related arrest warrants because law-enforcement officials complained those cases gobble up resources needed to pursue violent offenders.
Illinois regulators are investigating the use of warrants by debt collectors and other financial firms doing business in that state. In September, the Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation issued an order seeking to revoke the license of Easy Money Express Inc. The Paducah, Ky., payday lender won arrest warrants against at least four customers. One spent five days in a Carbondale, Ill., jail last March after failing to pay a $275 debt, court filings show. The lender "exploited the court system to obtain the arrest and incarceration of its customers," said Sue Hofer, a spokeswoman for the agency. The company declined to comment but is fighting the state's proposed ban.
At the national level, the Federal Trade Commission began scrutinizing in July the use of arrest warrants in debt-collection lawsuits. An FTC spokesman declined to comment on whether the inquiry has led to formal investigations by the agency, which oversees the debt-collection industry and enforces a U.S. law that restricts how borrowers can be pursued for debts.
Arrest warrants generally can be issued if a borrower defies a court order to repay a debt or doesn't show up in court. Retailers, credit-card issuers, landlords and debt collectors are the most frequent seekers of such orders, according to court filings and interviews with judges and lawyers.
Encore Capital Group Inc., the largest publicly traded debt-buying firm by revenue, last year began requiring law firms handling its cases to follow a "code of conduct" that includes this sentence: "Under no circumstances should a firm cause a consumer to be taken into custody involuntarily."
J. Brandon Black, Encore's president and chief executive, said the San Diego company decided to stop threatening borrowers with jail because the practice made Encore look bad. The company filed 425,000 lawsuits against borrowers last year, up 27% from 334,000 in 2009.
Last year, officials in McIntosh County, Okla., south of Tulsa, issued about 1,500 debt-related arrest warrants, up from about 800 a year before the crisis, according to a court clerk. More than 950 borrowers got similar warrants in Salt Lake City courts last year. Maricopa County, Ariz., officials issued 260 debt-related warrants in 2010.
Few orders result in jail time. For example, in Piatt County, Ill., just five borrowers were arrested last year out of the 13 hit with debt-related arrest warrants. The sheriff said he puts a higher priority on tracking down people accused of violent crimes.
"I wish I could do it more," said Piatt County Circuit Judge Chris Freese, who has heard hundreds of debt-collection cases. "It's often the only remedy to get people into court and paying their debts."
In one of those cases, Emmie Nichols, 26 years old, was arrested in June at her mother's house after lawyers for Capital One Financial Corp. won an arrest warrant against her for skipping a court hearing about $1,159.87 she owed on a credit card from the company. The $500 bond that freed Ms. Nichols from the county jail was turned over to Capital One as a partial payment of the debt, court filings show. A Capital One spokeswoman declined to comment on Ms. Nichols. Some judges are worried that the jump in debt-related arrest warrants is creating a modern-day version of debtors' prison. The practice ended in 1833 after decades of controversy, since borrowers owing as little as 60 cents could be held indefinitely in squalid jails until they paid off their debt.
Earlier this year, Vanderburgh County, Ind., Superior Court Judge Robert Pigman asked Indiana's highest court to review the legality of debt-related warrants after law-enforcement officials complained they can't quickly access arrest orders for dangerous criminals because their computer system is clogged with debt cases. The Indiana Supreme Court hasn't responded to the request.
In September 2009, Jeffrey Stearns, a concrete-company owner, answered a knock at the door from a Hancock County, Ind., deputy sheriff. The deputy was holding a warrant to arrest Mr. Stearns for not paying $4,024.88 owed to a unit ofAmerican International Group Inc. on a loan for his pickup truck.
After being handcuffed in front of his four children, Mr. Stearns, 29 years old, spent two nights in jail, where he said he was strip-searched and sprayed for lice. Court records show he was released after agreeing to pay $1,500 to the loan company. "I didn't even know I was being sued," he said, though he doesn't dispute owing the money. "It's the scariest thing that ever happened to me."
Mr. Stearns said he never got the summons or two orders to show up before a judge that a deputy sheriff said in court filings were delivered to him. Hancock County Sheriff Mark Shepherd couldn't be reached for comment. Mark Herr, an AIG spokesman, declined to comment on Mr. Stearns but said the lending unit was sold in November.
I wonder if Stearns or his lawyer demand a copy of proof of service?
This is all well and good but the SOL for debt won't apply to fines, repayment of gov't funds or various other debts ( bail, traffic violations).
That is so true. Um, I'm not a lawyer but I have found www.lawyers.com forums to be helpful in the past for various legal questions.
I'm not a lawyer either, but I am a paralegal who specializes in debt collector abuse issues.
Insanity plain and simple. Seizing property and attaching wages is just not good enough hey?
Shit I bet they don't go after child support with as much enthusiasm.
Locking some-one up over debt. is unconstitutional. I can understand making some leeway for going after deadbeat child support payments, but not for commercial debt.
Yes, it blows my mind. Here, some replies to the first article mentioned at http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/12/13/388303/the-return-of-debtors-prisons-thousands-of-americans-jailed-for-not-paying-their-bills/ Rachel Roberts · UCLA "This doesn't make sense. When you are summoned to civil court and you don't show, the judge doesn't have the power to issue an arrest warrant. You just get a default judgment against you. This would be a clear violation of due process, so I have real trouble believing this."
and this:
Heidi J. Horan · Dallas, Texas "The largest lobby for the "three strikes" rule, in California, was the prison-for-profit gang...gee, couple that with absolutely no rehabilitation occurring in them, it's the perfect "business". Plus, J.C.Penney and many other retailers are now using prison labor to produce some of their goods. I believe the figure I read was 11 cents/hour...that's cheaper than raping a third world country for sure!! Color me disgusted.""
Yeah it's sick. Goes to show that even if something sounds insane it does not mean that it is not happening.
"Mr. Stearns said he never got the summons or two orders to show up before a judge that a deputy sheriff said in court filings were delivered to him."
So the truth is that he was not imprisoned for his debts. He was arrested because he failed to show up to court on two occasions on the lawsuit filed against him by the creditor. It is always interesting how debtors seem to have unusual problems in getting notices from the court but not with any other items of their mail.
Now now, we all know about gutter service. How better for the collectors to win a default judgment than to "accidently" serve the debtor at the wrong address?
So now the county sheriff is working for the debt collector by stating under penalty of perjury that the summons and complaint were served on Mr. Stearn? The sheriff is going to risk his career and possibly face criminal charges to make sure a debt collector wins $4,000?
Plus you fail to excuse the other notices that were mailed from the court to Mr. Stearn that he conveniently claims he never received.
I am not specifically referring to the case of Mr. stearn. I am referring to thousands of other process servers who invent receivers of process, fail to deliver, either out of their own laziness and unscrupulous behavior or at the direction of the collectors delivberately supplying the wrong address.
That's correct. Usually summons arrive requiring a signature (certified mail) which begs the question: If a summons is sent by standard mail without the requirement of a signature since when is the mailing of a document 'constructive proof of receipt?'
Any lawyers reading this, can you answer this question?
Thanks.
Summons and a complaint (served together) are not served by certified mail within the state the case is being heard. They are also not served by regular mail. They are either personally served on the defendant or served via publication (when the defendant has moved and a valid address is unable to be found).
Personal service is what the name suggests. The defendant can also be served via substituted service: the papers are served on a person over 18 at the residence or place of employment of the defendant, but only after a certain number of attempts of personal service have been tried without success.
So with Mr. Stearn, he was apparently served with a summons and complaint. He then did not answer the complaint or appear at court. The court then set an Order to Show Cause hearing to sanction him or haul him into court for the hearing. Those notices can be served by mail. When he didn't show up after two such hearings, the bench warrant was issued.
This would be the same bench warrant if he did not show up for any type of court hearing. It had nothing to do with why he was being sued.
Thanks for the answer and explanation.