Forum Post: Dear "OWS is doomed" people
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 2, 2011, 8:41 a.m. EST by ishikabe
(9)
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If you can't predict the weather, how can you predict this?
Weather? What? It's a bit early to be hitting the fun sticks no?
So you are mad at OWS for having bodily functions? What a shame it is to be human. tsk tsk
OWS owned BoFA and Oakland.
Here is how OWS can move forward: http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/change/science_freshstart.html "If the problem is developing new policies and gaining political power, which it is, then the struggle should be framed from the start as a conflict over power and values, not as a struggle between social classes. The in-group should be all those who come to embrace the program of the egalitarian movement, and the out-group should be all those who oppose such changes. If the conflict is framed in this way, an egalitarian coalition has a chance to win over the moderates, neutrals, and independents who currently identify with capitalists, and who might be offended by blanket criticisms of them as a class. It may even attract dissident members of the capitalist class who transcend their class interests, and in the process become very valuable in legitimating the movement to those in the middle who are hesitant to climb on board."
I agree. Try to reach people with egalitarian values. Where the solutions to problem help everyone including the wealthy, poor and everyone in between. Approaching issues as equals goes a long way. No one deserves to go hungry even billionaires. Because of their wealth they probably wont use a national food system but they DO have access to it.
Thanks, For example, here is why even millionaires could benefit for a "basic income": http://www.livableincome.org/amillionairegli.htm
Remember, even wealthy people worry about the financial security of their children and relatives. They know how competitive things can be, and they know that often times their children are not going to be able to make it financially even with a big head start.
I think as a society we need to establish a clear definition of understanding of what a living wage ought to be. While being wealthy is great and leaving wealth for progeny is even better,teaching social responsibility isn't something society should leave in the hands of just two people(I.e. the parents) it is something that everyone must learn and actively reinforce in all economic classes. Believe me when I say there is nothing wrong with upward mobility. It just has to be done responsibly. Individually and as a society. Taxes are what make civilized society possible.
I especially liked your phrasing of the sentence at the end. I see Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said that, too: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Oliver_Wendell_Holmes,_Jr. ""Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society." Reportedly said by Holmes in a speech in 1904. Alternately phrased as "Taxes are what we pay for civilized society, including the chance to insure", Compania General De Tabacos De Filipinas v. Collector of Internal Revenue, 275 U.S. 87, 100, dissenting; opinion (21 November 1927). The first variation is quoted by the IRS above the entrance to their headquarters at 1111 Constitution Avenue."
Related: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10#after-adjusting-for-inflation-average-hourly-earnings-havent-increased-in-50-years-14
One chart there also shows how upward mobility in the USA is at an all time low.
Wages have stayed the same for 50 years, and yet productivity has gone up by three times or so during that time. Rather than buy that output through wages, the workers have only been able to buy all that stuff they make by being offered loans by the people getting all the profits. See: http://www.capitalismhitsthefan.com/
If we had not had the housing debt bubble, and now the student loan debt bubble, our economy would have cratered a decade or more ago.
So, you're right about living wage, but the issue goes deeper than that to a "fair" wage. And even further, robotics and other automation, AI, voluntary social networks, and other things are all reducing the value of most paid human labor. See: http://econfuture.wordpress.com/
Or: http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-freedom.htm
So, there are several layers of issues -- including a living wage, a fair wage, and social equity in the face of greater societal know how that reduces the need for paid employment.
On the last, see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit
Agreed. Many layers to understand and abstract in the same thought. That's why this next part will be diffulcult for me to get right... we have to strive towards a better egalitarian values orientated society were basic human needs are addressed before all other needs first. That should be done through a open source method of finding the most efficient way to make this possible. In my humble opinion those are in no real order of precedence food shelter clean water clean cheap/free renewable energy and a positive sense of security. And I wouldn't mind seeing some of the automation part get picked up by this... im sure im missing a few things but id love to hear some more suggestions.
Another related link: http://www.designingasociety.net/ "The School for Designing a Society, established in 1991, is a project of teachers, performers, artists, and activists. It is an ongoing experiment in making temporary living environments where the question “What would I consider a desirable society?” is given serious playful thoughtful discussion, and taken as an input to creative projects."
Also related in general terms: http://www.global-mindshift.org/memes/wombat.swf
And helpful work done in an inner city: http://isles.org/main/
I guess maybe we do not need more initiatives as much as to support the initiatives that have been going on for decades?
Some more are documented here: http://www.blessedunrest.com/
Old ones: http://www.amazon.com/Small-Possible-George-McRobie/dp/0060906944
Another book by the same name: http://www.newsociety.com/Books/S/Small-is-Possible
Lots of great projects listed here: http://inhabitat.com/
One optimistic thing to think about: http://cleantechnica.com/2011/05/29/ge-solar-power-cheaper-than-fossil-fuels-in-5-years/
On egalitarianism, Professor G. William Domhoff suggests transforming the Democratic party by forming "Egalitarian Democratic Clubs" in much the same way the Tea Party has transformed the Republican Party and got 100 people elected: http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/change/science_egalitarians.html
On providing all the basics, there have been lots of attempts in the past, but it is hard to get the support for being comprehensive outside of the market. Prof. Domhoff suggests part of a new platform would be better planning through the market. A basic income for everyone would help with that. Still, we are seeing through improved technology things like cheaper solar panels, better 3D printers, and flexible personal robotics that could be used for agriculture, so within twenty years, it's quite possible people could be more self-reliant and still have a roughly 1980s lifestyle (or maybe better).
You would probably like this video of one of the many people who have tried to help small groups in society be more self-reliant: "Marcin Jakubowski: Open-sourced blueprints for civilization" http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html
But things like that go way back in other forms, like to Charles Fourier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Fourier
And of course way back to native peoples. Anthropologist Marshall Sahlins wrote omething on abundance and perspective: http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm
Here is something on rethinking security to be more positively intrinsic and mutual, see: http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
And of course, Bob Black and others have talked about rethinking work as play: http://idlenest.freehostia.com/mirror/www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html
As did Theodore Sturgeon in the 1950s in this sci-fi story about mobile computing and an advanced mostly locally self-reliant society: http://books.google.com/books?id=wpuJQrxHZXAC&pg=PA51
More recent thinking by Kevin Carson: http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com/
Ultimately though, our economy has probably always been a mix of five interwoven systems of transactions (Subsistence, Gift, Exchange, Planned, and Theft) and likely always will have aspects of all of those: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vK-M_e0JoY
Your a godsend thanks derek. It'll take me a while to get through all that. But im sure ill have another reply for you. ;)
You're welcome. Glad to be helpful and see someone finding value in this information.
http://thepurpletruth.blogspot.com
LOL...they just scored a political victory with the BoA thing...this thing is growing, not dying
The Purple Truth A Political Blog
Of course OWS is not doomed. If you set no discernible goals, how can you fail at achieving them. OWS will be successful at shitting in buckets, civil disruption, and raising money for Obama 2012.
Or have you seen an official declaration of goals and the way to achieve such. If so, please let us know.
The whole damn world is doomed. What makes anyone think OWS is alone in this fact? We are all doomed rich, poor, young, ol,d American, Iraqi, Muslim, and Christian. I would be more worried about how to feed yourself after society collapses. Think all your money is going to help you. HAHA Ignorance at its finest.
come at me bro