Forum Post: Could Everyone Agree To Take Back Zuccotti Park?
Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 10, 2012, 11:08 p.m. EST by GypsyKing
(8708)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I mean everybody! Open space is public space. If it is not, than public has no real meaning. The best reason to retake the park is simply that they forced us out. But only, only if it can be properly coordinated at some specific time in the future, with a minimum of 50,000 committed to being there. Can we do it? Should we do it? Your thoughts . . .
What prevent you from assembling there now? The barricades are down it's open again to everyone all the time, you just can't live there and deny the space to others.
It has to do with the necessity to establish a permanent locus for the movement in a space that is accessable to the masses. That was the reason the right to assemble was written into the Constitution - to prevent authoritarian rule from blocking exactly that kind of action. Why do you think they were so determined to disrupt it, so that kids would have that particular place to scateboard???
The needs of OWS to have a base from which to operate don't mean much to the public in general. If the ideas are good and strong enough you'll find a way to meet and make things work. you're not likely to be allowed to live in that park any more.
I doubt the Constitution was written with living together on a public access space in mind when they guaranteed the right to assemble, but let's assume I'm wrong. If you are going to use the constitution as the source of your rights then you're stuck having to put up with the interpretation of those rights by the courts.
You are free to challenge those decisions, free to protest them, but if you occupy the park again the authorities are within their rights, as granted by the courts, to evict you again if they wish.
Homeless people in every big city in this nation "occupy" public and private spaces in the nooks and crannies all over the urban landscape. These spaces are for the most part considerably less safe and have considerably more health hazards than do any of the public occupations. What the Establishment finds distressing about public occupations is not so much their mere existence as it is their public character. And they certainly don't really care about the issue of safety for the occupiers given the level of violence that is typically used to evict them.
I agree the safety thing was probably bogus, but they made a case and won the judgement. To be honest about it OWS wasn't interested in simple assembly, as you mentioned earlier they would like a permanent residence for a base. Both sides are bending the truth a little to favor their position. The lawyers for OWS must have felt they had no case for an appeal though. That doesn't change the law of it all.
What are your options now? Live with the ruling, retake the park try to hold it and win public support, find some other location where you will be able to set up a base, or make the best of things as they are. The first is distasteful and the second unlikely to work, the third hasn't gotten anywhere so far, and no one likes that last choice.
OWS started as an act of civil disobedience. Virtually every week there has been an action based on civil disobedience and we will retake a public space as an act of civil disobedience. That is one of several defining characteristics of OWS: to occupy, to occupy Wall Street, to engage in nonviolent direct action and to engage in civil disobedience. That is what inspired people throughout the world and what will continue to inspire people as the first genuinely oppositionist movement in America in living memory. OWS was, OWS is, OWS shall be. Order reigns in Zuccotti Park. Your order is built on sand.
That is certainly one of the options open to OWS. If their success depends on having a physical space then they will have to try to reclaim one. They have degenerated into a sort of protest du jour group. They risk looking like people protesting selfishly for a campground, in violation of existing law, but there is a chance they could get some sympathy.
They have degenerated into a sort of protest du jour group. They risk looking like people protesting selfishly for a campground, in violation of existing law, but there is a chance they could get some sympathy.
Precisely when did OWS "degenerate?" Before it was evicted OWS participated in at least two demonstrations every day, either of their own creation or in solidarity with some other movement. Because of the eviction that has slowed down some. Is that what is meant by "degenerate?" From the very moment that OWS came into existence it was in violation of the law. It has never, for example, applied for a parade permit, in clear violation of municipal laws on demonstrations. And that "parade" ended in the occupation of Zuccotti Park. People slept there that night in violation of municipal ordinances against sleeping in public parks. Well beyond "some sympathy" it was precisely these acts of civil disobedience (known to the unsympathetic as "breaking the law") that captured the public imagination and led to occupations not only all over the United States, but all over the world.
They began with a flash, lots of great ideas, many groups popping up across the country. Being compared to a new type of civil rights movement. For me, the degeneration began when they elected to stay with a safe course, and only "raise awareness" about the inequities they saw. Once there were occupy groups all across the country they had a real chance to make positive change. Like the civil rights or environmental movements did before them, they could have gotten involved with the political process and slowly make real changes.
Instead the consensus went a different way. I'm not sure if they feel the system is beyond hope, or they feared they didn't actually have that much popular support, or what. Once they had the public's imagination they could have used it, now a large portion of the public see's them as without political relevance. OWS has pointed out the problems but doesn't seem to have the will or ability to actually get involved beyond telling others what's wrong. That's good for a start, now that people are aware of the problem help fix it or move out of the way.
Every local GA and occupation is autonomous. There is no nationally coordinated movement. Every GA could take whatever course it wants and it is my understanding that some GAs are more political (by which I presume is meant electoral) than others.
It is true that anarchist sentiments tend to prevail in the NYC GA and that is influential in the entire nation, but any GA could take the initiative as Oakland did with the port shut downs.
OWS is a tiny, tiny movement. What is astonishing is how much it has accomplished given how small it is and how new it is. Not only is it tiny, it is also in its infancy. To accomplish significantly more it will have to be much much bigger. It is continuing to grow though not at the rate of its first heady weeks. Once 20 or 30 million people are occupying will be time enough to think about a next step--which might not have anything to do with politics. It might, for example, explore the possibility of greater coordination between GAs.
What OWS is telling other is not what is wrong. What OWS is telling others is, "join us!"
They don't offer a clear enough message to get the growth you talk about. They were looked at originally as a liberal tea party movement. Part of the hope OWS generated in people came from looking at the political inroads tea party candidates made (I'm not praising them only pointing out they got people elected in one election cycle).
People want change, not autonomous groups unable to make a decision about what the agenda for the day will be. The non-hierarchical nature and inability to coordinate a national policy will, I fear, lead to it becoming a minor movement as time goes on. The anarchy issue will also be a problem as time goes on, I seriously doubt this country is anywhere near ready for tearing down the government.
I don't know who looked at the various occupations as a liberal tea party movement. Certainly they didn't look at themselves that way. The Democratic Party would certainly like to co-opt the movement, but so far thank goodness, they have been unsuccessful.
I don't think OWS was ever viewed as a tea party equivalent by any of its supporters. It began in an act of civil disobedience and until the eviction engaged in some act of civil disobedience on a daily basis. It still does, though not so frequently. People were energized by the militant oppositionism of OWS and its intransigent opposition to the status quo. No other explanation makes any sense because that is all OWS was about and is about from the very beginning. Anyone who thought differently had to be deluding themselves as the evidence was there and is there on a daily basis.
If the people want change its up to the people to change things. That has been the most elemental position of OWS from the very beginning. Its only political document, the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City is not, after all, directed to any government agency. It is directed "to the people of the world." It is up to us, all of us. Thus it was in the beginning and thus it still is. OWS is a tiny, tiny movement. It needs to become much, much bigger. It does not presume to assume what actions it will take or what direction it will take once it is truly a majoritarian movement. That will be up to the movement itself once it reaches that stage. Right now it is doing what it can do with the forces it has. Once 20 or 30 million people are occupying will be time enough to think about a next stage.
OWS is a minority movement now. The strides it has made as both a brand new movement and a tiny movement are astonishing. It can hardly be expected to do more given its tiny size and the short span of its existence.
In practical terms, the radical tendencies in the movement, which are very influenced by the radical intellectual tradition have thus far been considerably more effective in organizing than have the more moderate elements, who seem to be more busy fighting among themselves and arguing about what demands to raise rather than actually organizing people. It is the radicals in the movement who built the first alliance between organized labor and the radical intelligentcia that this nation has seen since the 1940s. It is the radicals that reached out to the stop stop and frisk movement. It is the radicals who reached out to the homeless, to the mentally ill, to the religious community, to the debtor class, to the foreclosed. This crap about "tearing down the government" is nothing but liberal slander and frankly envy since the moderate in the movement are way behind the curve in terms of actually organizing people.
No, I know they didn't see themselves that way, but coming so soon after the tea party it was a frame of reference for people, and mentioned that way by some media outlets. I think the democratic party is afraid to embrace OWS, partly because they don't control it, partly because they don't know how the public will ultimately view it. I believe OWS could have co-opted the Democrats though if they had tried.
The constant protests with no plan beyond that gets old after a while. Civil disobedience just to tweak the establishment begins to look pointless. At the beginning there was hope that OWS would do something beyond just point to problems and demand someone else fix them. Individuals feel helpless to change things alone, that's why major change has always occurred when people band together, civil rights, the environment, and so on. It's either blind or incredibly naive to say change is up to the individual when whatever success OWS has had is only due to people coming together. How successful would it have been if each member had set up his own little camp alone or in twos or threes?
The vague message has been a strength in that OWS can be what you want it to be, but I see that too as fading. That lack of clarity opens the door for others to define you, as you noted some liberals did about the tearing down comment. After a while people need more then someone offering awareness. The unions will be there as long as it suits their goals, as for the radicals, there aren't enough of them to actually produce change. The more I consider all this the more it looks to me like with the park or without OWS has peaked.
Yeah, the media really wanted to shoe horn OWS into the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party has a massive infrastructure. In comparison OWS is a tiny, tiny movement. The Democratic Party has been the grave yard of every social movement in America since the days of the Populists more than a century ago, and virtually every one of those movements was qualitatively larger than OWS. If they were all co-opted by the Democrats, there is no reason to believe that OWS will easily escape that fate, but it is most certainly the greatest danger that OWS faces.
Ultimately it is true that civil disobedience on the part of a tiny group of people is little more than a moral existential stance, but if tens of millions of people are engaged in such an oppositionist culture it is something altogether different. We got just a tiny taste of what that would begin to be like with the port shut downs and that only involve 20 or 30 thousand people. Imagine if it were 20 or 30 million.
I don't think OWS has that vague a message if people care to look. The Declaration of the Occupation of New York City is an extremely articulate and suscinct statement of the NYC GA position.
As long as the crises that OWS is addressing are systemic rather than cyclical, it is unlikely that it will disappear though its growth will probably come in spurts rather than either incrementally or massively in a very short time.
A noninclusive list of nearly two dozen complains with no solutions offered isn't much help. Although having so many allows some questionable ones to slip through without much of a challenge. If all they are going to be is the nation's awareness ribbon for perceived wrongs, then their task is completed, time to work toward a solution.
Thank you, R.J.
We've been trying to take it back since N17. It's difficult when you're going up against the 7th largest army in the world.
I understand that, and have great respect for what you are doing and have done. Is there anyway to get people from outside the New York area to plan a day of convergence and support. There are a lot of people out here who would come to your aid, given enough advance notice.
Thanks <3
I don't think that we're going to be able to organize a mass show of force until spring. The best thing you can do until then is start organizing affinity groups and hold nonviolence trainings. More than warm bodies, we need people who are trained and disciplined.
Personally I was thinking spring. I think people need a lot of advance notice to participate in something like that if they're from other states. There are a lot of people across America who really want to support you in New York, but have not yet been given a date with enough advance warning to plan to commit. We need four or five months where everybody says "Zucotti Park - May 1st 2012" for example. We must take into consideration the logistics of getting national participation.
I hear you about disipline and non-violence training. This is something that might be advocated on social networks as well as local trainings.
Well you can count on something big happening on May Day no matter what :P
But you're right that we do need to set that date as far in advance as possible, and count down :)
We've also been trying to think of ways for a while to really get the message out there that people need to train and take fighting back very seriously. It's difficult to envision the best way to get that point across, and make it easy for people who aren't like full time rebels to understand.
Great! If there's one point I'd like to get across, it's that the people in NY must understand that there really is massive support for this movement across the country, but there really hasn't been the kind of outreach and coordination necessary to bring that support out of the woodwork of busy lives. That was why I have felt that a more direct and cohesive leadership structure might be to our advantage. A charismatic leader can do a lot to motivate the real masses in all the states that want to participate, but don't know how.
We have suffered from insufficiently coordinated protest action that by it's very nature can't include even a fraction of those who would like to be there, who would like to support your efforts in NY.
But that deficit could be overcome by waiting, and really getting the word out; really setting just one major day of action, planned well in advance that could bring out massive numbers of us that want to stand beside you in this struggle. And so, I believe that our greatest effort should be focused on the political arena, but that we must also plan for a single day - one single day of action, focused on Zucotti Park to make a statement. If those masses are then effectively blocked from Zucotti Park, I still think we could make a STATEMENT in Manhattan.
Many of us around the US are dying to get into this action. All we need is a a date sufficiently in the future that we can plan to be there at your side.
That's not true though about leaders. There's this naive pervasive view in western culture that all things accomplished by a group of people are attributable to a single bro acting as leader. Therefore if we don't have a leader, everyone assumes that all our problems are attributable to not having one. It's ridiculous, because such a view completely ignores the thousands of other complex things required to run a successful organization/resistance/whatever. More than leaders, we need to be organized, to have resources, to have communication, to have physical spaces to work and live. These problems wouldn't magically disappear if we named a leader.
Also when you talk about the cohesiveness of the movement, I think we've managed to create incredible cohesion given the circumstances. Normally organizing leftists is like domesticating a bunch of wild cats, and while we've got a ways to go, we've somehow managed to build a pretty solid network in just a few months. Did I mention how it's only been a few months? We didn't exact plan to be at the center of a global movement, we were just a bunch of radicals in a park sitting around rolling cigarettes and suddenly every city in america was looking to us to follow our example. Overnight people expected us to have the organizing infrastructure that takes organizations like MoveOn years upon years to build.
Not to mention the fact that half the rules we thought we knew about how to run shit have to be thrown out the window. We're trying to blaze a trail not previously traveled, not create another boilerplate capitalist organization. We can't exactly hire some MBAs from Harvard and wash our hands clean. This is because while we frantically work to get organized, we're also developing new models through trial and error.
Anyway I'll see what I can do to help build consensus on a date in the future where we can all bring the war home on wall street so we can let you guys know early in advance :)
That was the most informative post I have seen in some time. Lets just see how things progress then, and do whatever is possible to keep them working. We'll see you in Spring.
Thank you for listening. See you in the financial district in a few months :)
What is more important?
What is more relavant?
What is more constructive?
What is more revolutionary?
getting Zucotti ?
OR
getting rid of Citizens United
WHAT WILL YOU DO ???
I agree in part, but you can't encapsulate the needs of the times into simply getting rid of the last draconian creation of the intrnational corporate monster. If you allow that to happen than you are just playing their game. Getting rid of Citizen's United is not enough.
It is certainly more important than camping in a park.
I think you underestimate the right to having public as opposed to private space. You know kids in this country really don't have the space to be kids anymore. That's why we have an obesity epidemic among children. Freedom is something that must actually exist in the world, and not be simply relegated to the sphere of the abstract.
We must exert ourselves in the most effective ways, both within the abstract sphere of politics, and within the sphere of freedom in physical reality.
What you say is important but getting our government free of the corrosion of money is much more urgent and will make your goal achievable.
dude stop spamming other threads. let's keep this thread on topic
yeah waz up? I'm feelin crazy as a shit house rat. let's take zuccotti...I got friends...big brothers.
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Top GOP Strategist Admits He’s ‘Scared’ Of Occupy Wall Street Because It’s ‘Having An Impact’
http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/12/01/379365/frank-luntz-occupy-wall-street/?mobile=nc
This guy is too stupid to be seen as a congnitive infiltrater. Maybe if he finishes high school he could join the conversation.
keep citzens united .
Is there really a reason we should bother? Occupying things and holding street protests worked really well for the first month or so, but now it's starting to get old. If we're smart we'll forget about the tents and the parks, start holding voter registration drives en masse, start hunting down people to run for local office and in certain Congressional primaries, start drumming up money to support our chosen candidates, and save the war with the cops for another day.
This is a very good point. Really, I tend to agree with the idea that the movement has to become politically active, and I think active in the upcoming elections. But it is also worth considering Zucotti Park as a symbol of freedom from economic insecurity. Occupying open space may be something worth fighting for. The fact that they put forth such money and effort to disband it says something about how much it aggravated them. At any rate, I'm just throwing the idea out there.
I know, but at the end of the day power is the name of the game; who has it, how much they have, and what the quickest route is for us to get more of it. I'm convinced that the quickest route is through the polls, and the reason why I'm not particularly enthusiastic about reoccupation is that I'm not sure it's worth it. Trying to pull something like that off is going to cost a great deal in terms of people beaten and/or jailed, (as well as incidental costs like time spent hunting them down once they're in the system and money spent on posting bail), take time and energy away from political organization, and will most likely provide us with a whole slew of opportunities to look like clowns and nutjobs on national TV (which I can pretty much guarantee that some fool will capitalize on at least once) with little chance of success.
This is a convincing argument for me, but only reluctantly. If we abandon Zucotti Park then we better work like hell through the political process to force change! The images of those people being beaten and handcuffed for doing nothing other than asserting their right to exist lingers in my mind with a burning fury.
It pisses me off to no end, and I'd like to see something done about it, but for me personally the best revenge is success. Standing out there trying to prove that your nose is more durable than their fist is noble, but if all that accomplishes is creating a conveyor belt through the NYPD comprised of activists then I don't see how it helps. The best way as far as I'm concerned to honor their struggle is to get results in their name, and I would also see heavy political activism as a show of strength on our part because it would mean that even though we have no home base we still keep getting stronger.
Given how things stand we are in agreement, but I wish to God it didn't have to be an either/or proposition.
So do I; I wish we were in a position to attack this on all fronts (political, PR, street protests) at once, but that takes such an incredible amount of unity and discipline that I know of very few movements that were able to do all that and still do it well. I just don't want to place any side bets with major risks and uncertain payoffs when there's a much more straightforward (if somewhat less appealing) path to the same end.
Yes, I have been saying that we need to attack it from the political end for awhile now, especially in an election year. But if we are going to engage in protest as well, I see no reason for dispersal of that effort. If it's a choice between one or the other, I would advocate the political process. There is, however, another way of seeing it. I don't know how deep the support for the 1% really is, even in the ranks of the institutions paid to uphold order, and Zucotti it seems would be the place to concentrate protest effort. Taking back the park would seem to be by far the most effective place to center that effort. But I differ to your judgement here.
Why not do a bit of each? I would love to see a voter registration drive held at Liberty Square! Heck, I bet if enough people put their support behind it, that OWS could organize a large-scale third-party debate.
The "people's caucus" or something like that would get positive attention and hopefully show average Joe citizen that we don't have to choose between a lesser of two evils. We can have another option, if we want to work for it.
I think the problem that a lot of people closely involved are pointing out is that there is too much dispersal of effort, which is why I think we must focus on a few specifics at a time and make them work. I appreciate you desire to see change on both fronts and share it. But my point is that if we are to effectively focus on the political, then that inevitably limits what we can do on the protest front, and I don't think a "little" is good enough on that front. It might even be counter-productive due to giving the appearance that we don't have as much support as we really do.
I think we need to plan for one day this spring, and get everyone willing from all fifty states to converge on Zucotti park, with the primary goal of presenting a show of numbers. If we are to engage in protest at all, I think it's go big or go home and work on the political front exclusively.
That makes as much sense as rebuilding the World Trade Center towers. Does not fix a problem, just proves we can do it.
The issue is that you need a new modus operandi. You need to have a purpose, an additive solution rather than negative complaint. Help me implement it.
Please, finish your thought. Help you implement what?
This: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wHBKrTX_U0nukOH77vC96e4tMys8DJ-5V-xxxxUlcOE/edit
i don't think taking Zuccotti park (again) will help anything. It'll only hurt the working people around that area. OWS needs to think about another strategy to become a movement not just occupiers. Any one can occupy, only few can lead and make real changes.
When the government of a democracy forcefully evicts people, preventing them from excercizing their right to freedom of assembly that is a precident that should not be allowed to stand.
freedom of assembly is fine, but they do need to obey the laws (i.e. no camping overnight, no destruction of property etc). If someone came into my house i can evict them because their are laws that protect me. Same thing for parks and public areas that are protected by laws.
If, in a place like Manhattan, there was even any remotely equitable ratio of private to public space, you would be justified in this complaint. There is no such equitable ratio. That is, in essence, exactly what we are protesting. We are protesting the fact that too few people own too much; and space (the physical reality of land and it's exclusive ownership) is central to that inequity.
that makes sense, but parks are shared and if one group takes a park over then the general working public can't use them.
Yes, but what takes precidence, people's right to use a single park for recreation, or the right of the people of the United States of America to assert their Constitutional Freedom?
both
As much as I respect the people of Manhattan's right to use Zucotti Park for recreation, I think they could use another park for awhile so that we, as a nation, could make a statement about the economic inequality that is crushing us. We are in fact being very reasonable regarding the assertion of our rights.
Zuccotti part has two c's. Unless Zucotti park is the one in downtown Peoria.
Thanks. Spelling is definately not my strongpoint.
You have more rights than others? That somehow doesn't sound like something I'd do a drum circle about.
You're flippant dismissal of the groundswell of hatred for the corruption represented by Wall St. is worthy of Marie Antonette.
I'm not the one who said I have a greater right to be in a public park than other members of the public. You're embarrassing yourself.
Can't go on private space. Can't go on public space. So what are you saying WooHoo. No protest? That is very very un-American.
Find someone willing to give you private space. Oh wait, no one will. Hard to believe they're turning down the 99%.
Protest is American. Go and protest. If I were the Mayor I'd invite you back to the park with only one condition. No one can stay overnight.
Someone might. OWS already has lots of private space indoors.
You are almost sounding reasonable, WooHoo.
Yeah, I understand there is some office space being donated. That should be room enough for what's left.
it's a CITY, not a theme park.
So, that's your oppinion of public space? A theme park? It's that kind of arrogance exactly that is inspiring revolt.
nyc has many parks , the largest being central park. there is also prospect park and van cortlandt park. public parks have laws.
Laws created by whom, for whom?
laws passed by the elected nyc govt to protect the parks.
You mean by the billionaires that buy the elections that control the government that "protect" the parks from the "plebians."
I dunno. Back in the 50s, when referring to Manhattan as the Apple became more commonplace among the middle classes, the hipster community began to refer to it as "the set," because the whole scene reminded them of a movie set.
Find a park that is PUBLIC,,,,cmon guys..that park is PRIVATE.....so its not up to the state..
Please use critical thinking...
public park will be closed after dusk
But its a PUBLIC park..u are the OWNER..not the STATE....
did you ever get a ticket for been in the park after 10pm? its about $25. once i got one. it was public school. there were 2 gates and pathway through school yard. police car had stopped next to one of the gate. and after moment drove away. couple minutes later sneaky police officer holding his hand on the holster, and another hand at the flash light pointing out to my face. what this circus is all about? - another officer waiting in the car at other side of the pathway. they said: you can go through, but you cannot stay(too suspicious, too dangerous, whatever else activity for the public safty)
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May Day, let's do it .
That sounds like a good day to me. So, between now and then could we use social media to make this the festive event of the year? A Mayday festival at Zucotti to celebrate American freedom? Could be fun. We'll invite all fifty states.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/07/1052342/-This-Week-In-Occupy-May-Day
There's a general strike being planned for that day. I personally think we might not have enough people for a general strike yet, but whatever, let's aim high.
there are 57 states,.......0bama said so.
There aren't 50,000 of you nationwide.
I like it when people say stuff like that, and furthermore, I hope they believe it.
And even if you could muster those numbers, how effective is camping and going home when the police tell you to? It's stunning to witness the disbelief and incredulity, the inability those of your ilk have, to understand that 'camping' isn't gonna cut it.
You're contempt for disempowered majority is stunning. You seem to feel as though there is no limit to the amount of provocation the American people will tollerate. I wonder if that has as yet really been put to the test?
And that's the crux of your misconception. The majority doesn't sense a 'disempowered' state. That's why the OWS 'movement' is nothing more than a nostalgia-fueled make-believe visit to 1968. The unicorn/rainbow/drum circle faction needs to feel like they can also experience what they only know as the romanticized version of war and civil rights riots. It's all peace signs and love beads time again. Even the 'new hippies' aren't genuinely disempowered. To them (you) it's a concept. But you have a place to live. You're not starving. You may even have a job, a car, a family.
Has it really been put to the test? First you need a majority of the American people to be really pissed off. As in hungry. They're not.
What planet are you on? Planet Plutocrat?
You're asking me what planet I'm on? I'll let the irony wash over me.
There will be more than irony washing over Manhatton this spring.
Why isn't it happening now? Why isn't it happening still?
Show up in the spring, the cops kick you out again. The blue tarp drum circle crowd didn't leave because it got cold. They left because they have only sufficient fortitude for camping. They were told to leave or else and they left. Even if the remnants of this exercise in futility can muster something in the spring, why will it be any different?
"Get out."
"Okay."
You might take the silver spoon out of your mouth and visit the Gulf Coast, or what's left of it after the Bush Era. You're treading on thinner ground than you think. Oh, and if you're so dismissive that why are you wasting so much time here, when you could be out on your yacht?
Thanks for explaining why the 'movement' isn't happening now, still. Thanks too for explaining why it'll be different in the spring.
This website is hilarious, really.
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Should try it. Make an appointment right on this web site. It's OK if smiths temporary shut down the web site. It is totally fine. Don't be scared
I'll have to differ to jart and ARod on this because they are closer to what's actually happening in NY. But I agree, thanks.
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I think it is a private park, and if you have that much time then you shoudl be feeling out job applications
Apparently everything in Manhattan is private, but please go on and enjoying yourself fishing. I love to fish, and meanwhile the rest of us will fight for your economic freedom, so that you can continue to do so.
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Take over Obamas office,IMHO.
Are you going to monitor the campers better or are you going to let them destroy the place?
OWS is dead buddy. Get used to it.
Ah, the fourth most slimy troll. I'm on a roll!
How is that trolling? It's just a fact.
waz up what time... I kan be there with a bunch a my frends.
Let's say, provisionally, May 1 2012, and lets all bring a LOT of friends!
Great...I am in ..with all homeys I can bring from Bronx. Bronx Rules ! (my birthday is in May too)
"Open space is public space. If it is not, than public has no real meaning. The best reason to retake the park is simply that they forced us out."
wow.
I have a 9 yr old nephew with better critical thinking skills than this imbecile.
grow the F up.
I think that's an excellent idea, I get to be on the finance committee this time, those other bastards aren't back from Spain yet!
You know, I have a hard time even advancing this idea. But there's no doubt that they delbt a damaging blow to our credibility when they took back that park. If confrontation is how they want to play this game, then maybe we could see how many people they want to confront? I wonder, with a CONCENTRATED effort, coordinated and publicized well in advance, if we could do it?
Clearly in order to do so we would need a LOT of bodies for self-protection. Yet if we could, it would make a statement about the right of the public to use public space to excersize our Constitutional Right to freedom of assembly.
Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that people only have a right to assemble for a day, or, a week, or a month. There is no time limit in the Constitution to freedom of assembly. If private property owners don't like it that's just tuff, it's the price they pay for living in a democracy. They're the first to praise the kids that die "in dubious battle" for their upholding of our "democracy," and then whine when they themselves are inconvienanced. I got no respect for that! In fact, I got no respect for the thugs that have taken over this country in general - not any of them.
So, if we could get enough enthusiasm and numbers, it might be worth considering.
I think it's a good idea, GypsyKing. I'd go.
Man, what stregnth, what courage. I don't have words. I myself am filled with a spirit of outrage at the way the Occupiers were treated. How can Americans stand by and watch that go on and not DO something about it. It is only that thought, that searing outrage that makes me suggest it. What I would like to see is 500,000 people go back to Zucotti Park!
I agree. I don't have words either. Hey, have you seen the youtube clip of that soldier Shamar Thomas?
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys
Yeah I saw it all right. I think the whole damned nation should descend on Zucotti Park without even being asked to do so. When are Americans finally going to wake up and not let themselves be brought down one by one out of their own damned cowardice? It's a revolting non-spectacle.
ARod has a very valid point, given our logistical circumstances. I agree with him, but I deplore the circumstances. The vast majority of Americans are just proving themselves to be sheeple. It's just sickening to me that they won't even stand up for their very survival.
You have to remember GypsyKing that our education system has been very successful at promoting the interests of the 1%. It takes a lot to overcome phony nationalism. As things continue to erode hopefully the nation will wake up.
And, I think we can and should do both what ARod is saying and what you are saying. Symbols are very important in revolutions and Zuccotti Park resonates with people as a symbol.
I agree, and there is more that just symbolism here as well. Perhaps we can put the rights of citizens against the resolve of law enforcement to a real test. There is a tipping point in these kinds of conflicts that is hard to predict. But I think if we do it at all we must focus on that one protest goal and see if we can't get a hundred thousand or so to join the party. Remember the crowds that showed up to greet Obama when he was first elected? Those were people who wanted change. I think a million or so turned out in Phiidelphia alone. There is a huge thirst for change out there, but it requires publicity, focus and advance notice to summon. If such numbers can't be rallied, than I agree with ARod.
I'm not an organizer but I do think it could be done especially when the weather gets warmer. And, imagine if we could get the cops to turn, to side with OWS. You know some of them are dying to inside.
Please watch the movie, I believe titled, "Yes Sir No Sir" about the way the establishment was afraid to call in the army to the Democratic Convention in 1968. That was a pivitol moment in the last major protest movement in America, and it has implications for us today.
Will do. Thanks.
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Your logic is flawed in many ways.
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Yes, once the American Public decide to actually excercize their Constitutional Rights they are automatically dirty. Gottcha.
Actually it was the uninvited trolls that were stinking up the place. Next time they aren't invited.
Yeah, tell those homeless bums that they can't have the free food you're dishing out for yourselves.
No, we'll just wait until you're a homeless bum. Then nobody will give a damn. And in your case, justifiably.
Who is bringing the shit buckets and reefer?
You are, that's all you trolls are good for.
Are you in New York? I mean, because if you are, then it's a topic for your GA.
IF not, perhaps it is a question best left to that local GA, we don't need to pressure them in the mistaken belief that we need whatever potential sacrifice that might represent for the sake of iconography.
Well, I got one rational response, anyway,
the idea does seem to really bother some of the opposition. Don't worry - I'm absolutely certain that by summer you will have all of the . . . umm . . . options . . . for activism that you can possibly handle.
heee hawww
; D
Yeah, I brought out the three most slimy trolls in less than half and hour - not bad!
they are scum bag koch suckers . . .
hemorrhoid lipped, rectum breathed, koch suckin buttfucks is what they are . . . .
they probably figured they could intimidate you or something
I thought the anal stage was during one's infancy?
Slow down there butt boy,you seem a little too fixated on your rather disgusting habits.
This is the type of simple-minded thinking that is killing OWS. OWS needs to formulate goals and tactics that are backed by much deeper reason(s) than this. If not, all these minor distractions will confuse the protesters and they will miss their chance to attack the really important problems.
Concur. Retaking something is symbolic nothing more. We have permits in DC and all we are known for us the Hooking Up going on in our camps. I am tired of the lack of people willing to use critical thinking skills. For example, messing with people's commutes to and from work is not a solution. No everyone needs or wants to be "woken up". Upsetting the bulk of the 99% to make a point is not the solution. Education and information are, but not distorting the truth. I font think we hear much of the successes of these OWS action in NYC because it would be depressing. Things are hyped to be bigger than they really are. Just my humble opinion.