Forum Post: Calling you all out, here and now...
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 19, 2011, 10:55 a.m. EST by getitdone
(69)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I want it made public immediately what specific people (though many misguided souls think otherwise) are pulling the strings, calling the shots, making the choices, choosing, funding, moderating, having the final say on WHAT OWS IS DOING?!?!!! What body is responsible for this?!?! For the DECISION MAKING PROCESS AND FINAL WORD?!?! Where is the money coming from to financially support OWS? Who's paying for this site? WHO'S WRITING THE ARTICLES ON THIS SITE?! Who are you? People think there is no one person or no one group of people but THAT's A LIE. GET IT OUT IN THE OPEN WHO AND WHAT THIS IS.
Who decided all of the actions of OWS to date? Who decided they were the best course of action?
Where did OWS come from?
AdBusters conceived of the occupation of Wall Street. Citizens liked the idea and executed the action on Wall Street. Citizens around the country were inspired by this action and started occupations across the US.
Of course all this was inspired by widespread corruption and dire conditions across the country.
Who has the final word?
Citizens developed the general assembly as a true democratic process where everyone can participate. The General Assembly process is constantly being developed and refined as the movement continues to grow by leaps and bounds. The GA for each occupation is the decision making process for each occupation.
Who funds OWS?
Citizens fund occupations with goods, services and cash contributions. General Electric, Exxon Mobile, Bank of America, etc. do not fund OWS, though their employees might. Some progressive organization have provided funding for OWS. Funding OWS does not buy access or power, it simply supports and facilitates OWS activity and the cause.
If you don't like what we're doing now, you're going to love what's coming up.
*National coordination of OWS actions.
*Protests and actions aimed at exposing / blocking / derailing corporate government actions.
*Further exposure of corporate media lies and hypocrisy and further marginalization of corporate media.
*More investigation and exposure of corrupt corproate and government activity.
*Corporate boycotts.
*Constitutional amendments removing money from politics and more.
*Election of citizens to represent citizens instead of corporations.
And that is just a few of the things you have to look forward to!
Why did a comany from British Columbia want us to occupy Wall Street.
Ooh, what's coming up looks pretty cool. Well said.
[Removed]
Sorry not propaganda... but your cut and paste response...
Thanks for your cut and paste propaganda...
Please READ the post and my comments and answer directly
Better not challenge your belief system, your entire universe may collapse into vapor and leaving you standing naked in the middle of the street.
My beliefs are firmly intact my friend.
Go sell crazy somewhere else.
Beliefs can't proved, that's why they are called beliefs...When facts challenge your perception of reality, it's time to reevaluate your belief system, or simply toss it..What good was it doing you anyway?
If your beliefs are solely based on fact and not bullshit then they can can't they.. so welcome to my life my friend.
My beliefs live in fact, pure and simple. No book of god or any other possible story who's characters may or may not have existed. I don't live in that world.
Then the things you carry around in your head are things of knowledge and truth, not belief..Not to get too picky with words.. But I see a difference in someone who knows or admits he does not know vs someone who simply believes.
Going back to your initial posting..You are looking for someone to find out who is in control of this site, this movement, this post I write to you right now..
There has been a heinous crime committed on the working class and poor of America and the world..People can see the injustice and our simply crying out the same thing in harmonious synchronicity...Please STOP, before it's too late...
My fear is that .....it is too late...The car never seems to veer, never turns from the cliff that any bystander can see is approaching fast.
It's never too late...
There is much I do not know but one thing is certain. Facts and science can not explain life. Nor spirit or soul. These are the things that make us different as individuals and as a species.
We can do anything we put our minds and bodies to. I know this.
Its not too late.
Belief involves some degree of uncertainty, but they can certainly be proven or disproven. [This is strictly philosophical nit picking, I don't disagree with you in principle...]
Your belief system has no grounds in this country
It's called rational thinking, we used to do it in this country, before we started worshiping stupid....
Thinking rationally would produce the thought that socialism cannot work
Capitalism, Socialism and Communism ...Nothing is "working"...
Capitalism has problems but it won't fail when no one has any money
It only fails when the people with no money go after the people who do..
And why do they have no money?
There are many reasons...some more obvious than others..
Then copy and paste them in.
No thanks...If you want to know you'll have to do the work..
Firm, indeed. Founded in reality, not so much.
Your opinion is noted... and duly placed where it deserves to be ::flush::
Good to make snap judgements of people... Good luck with that.
hint look inward... the answer hides deep within ;)
The snap judgment was you initial post. You didn't want answers to your questions, you wanted a soapbox to pontificate from. Your cup is already full and overflowing, there is no room for anything else.
Yeah... You're totally wrong. You're mindset from my words saw only accusatory. The only things I said that may have "sounded" accusatory to you were fact because I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN THERE FOR A MONTH.
Where have you been? Actually don't bother, I'm done with this.
That makes about as much sense as the rest of the crap you've posted here. You started this thread, Einstein.
I am out in the open. I am but one member. You can find more about me here:
http://zendogblog.net
You can find the urls to most of what I have posted on this forum on my profile, here:
http://occupywallst.org/users/ZenDog/
Most of the decision making is, as I have seen it, done by consensus. You should join a group and see for yourself.
As for the money, who cares? As long as we have a horizontal organizational strategy those who fund us will be little able to steer us but by consensus.
Our consensus.
This is what democracy looks like.
First of all where the money comes from is important if there is a specific motivational agenda being kept or enabling a specific direction be it slight or significant.
Second.. I have been there, many times. I have never witnessed any consensus or open forum in which specific actions or action ideas are presented, discussed and voted on. If you were present for them bringing up and voting on something specific I'd like to know about it.
I am talking about the decision for action... not day to day procedural.
Thanks for your reply
Pay attention.
I already told you, it's the Ghost of ACORN.
The forum rules have blown the integrity of the movement into shit as i am sure any free thinking individual will agree.
Your mom
"Life will not be a pyramid with the apex sustained by the bottom. But it will be an oceanic circle whose centre will be the individual always ready to perish for the village, the latter ready to perish for the circle of villages till at last the whole becomes one life composed of individuals, never aggressive in their arrogance, but ever humble, sharing the majesty of the oceanic circle of which they are integral units. Therefore, the outermost circumference will not wield power to crush the inner circle, but will give strength to all within and will derive its own strength from it."
Gandhi
You are all totally off base .. and acting like children. I am talking in terms to FURTHER THE MOVEMENT. To prevent everything you are accusing me of doing.
You're acting like children, perhaps you are. Perhaps you cannot get the whole mentality and mindset of the norm out of your being to see the bigger picture. Either way this, this meaning my post/questions/points.... is more of a waste of my time than anything meaningful.
Have fun continuing to spew meaningless garble. THANKS to all those contributed something meaningful in intelligent discourse.
You poor misguided soul! You are so full of fear its sad! BOO! SO you don't believe people can join together to fight for something they believe in without some sort of seedy power in the background pulling the strings? This is not the Tea Party, Libertarian Party or Fox News!
What the hell are you responding to???
Or are you just making a statement for yourself to hear... like masturbation.
You are misguided and tied to the old way of doing things. You are so brainwashed by the right, who get you to believe in simple, three word slogans (tax and spend liberal, etc...) that you may have lost the ability to think for yourself.
Calm down. Who are you and why should we answer?
Dude listen to me carefully... I am not a right or left person... To me it's all bullshit, den/rep.. same exact bs. I HAVE NEVER voted for a democrat or a republican EVER in my life. So keep your accusations, and your opinions about someone you know NOTHING about, all to yourself.
We note that you did not actually answer the question.
OWS' actions, and those of other Occupations, are democratically decided in general assemblies. These sites are funded by people within the movement who donate their time and resources to a cause they believe in. Such a site as this can be built and hosted with its own domain for less than $100/year. Also, much of occupation media and communications are carried out on social networking sites at no financial cost to participants. Articles on this site can be submitted by anyone (you submitted one with this post!). You act as if somehow a $100 website is evidence of some conspiracy on a grand scale. Your hypothesis is laughable. The sky is falling! Get yer tinfoil hats on, kids!
Listen choke hold... I don't care about the money. It's who is finalizing the decisions and the very process. GET IT.
READ
The decision making process is direct democracy, in general assemblies. I answered that. Anybody can make proposals at a GA, and then the people vote on them, wherein a consensus much be reached for any decision to be finalized.
We are anonymous...I donated 25 bucks personally...It must be pretty frustrating for people who are looking to destroy this movement, to not be able to pin down a "leader" ...I guess you'll have to try to take us all out..
Sorry to make your job harder.
One could only hope.
The nation is laughing at you. You look like hippy thugs under a Charles Manson trance. Everyone doing what a couple in people in the crowd say to do, like zombies looking to fit in somewhere, somehow. The "unpopular" kids in school and now you want to feel a part of something so you can have a cool story to tell your few friends at the local STARBUCKS. Even, if you have no idea what you are really participating in. Repeating over and over words that someone feeds you..
I hope that you surf the Internet at the library and not on your Mac or pc. I hope you don't own a cell phone or drive cars. I hope that you ride your bikes everywhere and that you didn't take a plane to participate in this shin- dig. I hope you live off the land in a hut. If not, you are a hypocrite and making those "1%" prosper.
And, while I am at it, where is Michael Moore's name on these posters that list all the "bad 1%"? Is he giving you all of his paycheck to fund your cause? Seems like this would be right up his alley. I wonder if he would leave his mansion to help you out? I bet he would, he can make a movie to earn millions and millions for himself. Are the other celebrities that are looking to get their face on TMZ donating all of their millions and millions to those in need?
I can't wait until someone interviews a variety of people in your group, as Jay Leno does on "Jay Walking", to reveal the true ignorance of those claiming to be involved. In fact there is probably a video on you tube of that very scenario right now.
You're a sad joke.
Ha ha..Ha...I only wish I was so young or could ever be called a hippie...Look OWS is highlighting the fact that our government has been taken over by the banks and multinational corporations, and the fact that Wall Street committed fraud and continues to commit fraud on a massive scale.
This is a problem for all Americans..If you don't have an issue with this then you're probably a crook yourself.
You don't get it, no one cares that you make money..They do care when you steal it and destroy the economy while enriching yourself..What do you think the payback should be for that?
How about you go into much more detail to back you hypothesis. I have read what you have posted a thousand times. There is nothing that irritates me more than follower types. All your chanting does is make me think of the Manson cult, which also attracted celebrities and blame everyone types like yourself. It's downright scary to watch people become hypnotized by by a false cause.
Hypothesis? Read Zerohedge and Watch Max Keiser..There's no fucking cult..What's scary about you is that you're a follower and you don't know it ...I'll see you in a month when you learn something about this situation..
"The "unpopular" kids in school" .. wow. "I can't wait until someone interviews a variety of people in your group" .. just, wow. You are really entrenched. I can see why you are so upset over this. I am not sure how to help you.
Oh, I did look for them at: http://corp.sos.state.ga.us/corp/soskb/CSearch.asp
...but no record was found.
The Occupied Wall Street Journal LLC POB - reserved under my name, how wierd.
INTERESTING... I 'just' reserved the corporate name: The Occupied Wall Street Journal LLC POB
in Georgia. It cost $25... yeah, prolly waisted money.
Not that that means this limited partnership doesn't exist. MAYBE the Georgia State Department just has horrible IT.
Registration URL is was: https://corp.sos.state.ga.us/Business/NameReservation/Default.aspx?XID=9bf82e1f-c4dc-440a-9624-1efc9f5002bb
My receipt is at https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=110d4c385afa2648&id=110D4C385AFA2648%21107#
Out of curiosity, what is the POB part?
whois info for www.TheOccupiedWallStreetJournal.Com (provided by http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/TheOccupiedWallStreetJournal.Com)
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Please note: the owner of the domain name is specified in the "registrant" field. In most cases, the Registrar is not the owner of domain names listed in this database.
Registrant: The Occupied Wall Street Journal LLC POB 14 Bethlehem, Georgia 30620 United States
Registered through: 1 and Done Domain Name: THEOCCUPIEDWALLSTREETJOURNAL.COM Created on: 03-Oct-11 Expires on: 03-Oct-12 Last Updated on: 03-Oct-11
Administrative Contact: Walsh, Scott madstudios30620@gmail.com The Occupied Wall Street Journal LLC POB 14 Bethlehem, Georgia 30620 United States 6785426173 Fax --
Technical Contact: Walsh, Scott madstudios30620@gmail.com The Occupied Wall Street Journal LLC POB 14 Bethlehem, Georgia 30620 United States 6785426173 Fax --
Domain servers in listed order: NS49.DOMAINCONTROL.COM NS50.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
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Omg Zendog???????????? From the former TBD???????????
; D
The One and Only!
Holy cow.........Just my luck lmao
I'm not screaming I'm being absolutely certain that the main point is kept integral here and all that be addressed... that is all. CAPS do not mean yelling. This isn't grade school text speak, it's a digital typewriter, it has a CAPS LOCK for a reason. I choose to use it to keep my point exactly that THE POINT.
Now, please get over it and stick to the subject here.
If most of the people "hear" yelling when they see caps, then you should preface every comment with "Note: Capital letters are only for focus, not implying yelling".
LET ME MAKE THIS CRYSTAL CLEAR.
I do not want your opinion. I don't care about your opinion. I want FACTS. If you don't have them don't bother to call out anyone. If you want to share your thoughts fine. DO NOT CALL OUT ANYONE unless YOU HAVE THE FACTS to back it up. Period
I know I drop in $20 bucks at the Kitchen every time I go to Zuccotti Park, so I guess I'm funding it. On the other hand, no way I've put $500 million in that bucket yet.
Don't you care to know?! The answers to ALL OF MY QUESTIONS HERE???
Beyond the money even??? Who's making the decisions???
If you ever sat through a GA you'd see just how sloppy the decision making process is. If there is any manipulativeness I think one of its prime sources is the Direct Action Workiing Group, which in unfortunately inordinately influenced by black bloc thinking and probably aiming to get people arrested who don't necessarily want to be.
This is also what I have witnessed being there over a month.
ALSO the decisions and actions chosen to focus on seem pointed more in a direction of pure disobedience rather than well thought out actions of significance that go direct to the source.
I don't see anything conspiratorial about this. As a "leaderless" movement OWS is very resistant to highly organized factions. However, there is no question that there are distinct tendencies in the movement. It is my perception that the initiators of the movement are strongly influenced by the intellectual currents of anarchism, a fact that the news media seems incapable of understanding or reporting on in any kind of coherent way, perhaps because they really can't see beyond the frame of Republican and Democratic politics. This tendency is at this point I think a minority of the movement, but still its most articulate advocates. A much larger tendency are reformers who basically see notions of revolution as hyperbole. While a significantly larger group than they radicals, their perspective is not nearly so coherent.
I think it needs to be made clear that we oppose anarchy, period.
This needs to be a message. This is what I'm saying. There has to be a body that wrangles in the real meaning of what we're doing and shutting out everything else. We cannot be allied with anarchists. That thought has got to be removed entirely from everyones mind.
At the end of the day we are all people and we are striving for the good of the people. The REAL good. Not of any percentage but for all.
We are not striving to incite military rule.
You can't really say that we oppose anarchy, period, because there are, most certainly, people within our movement who support anarchy. People who fear anarchy largely misunderstand it. In general, it is often considered simply opposition to authority, but that is inaccurate. Clearly, the vast majority of Occupiers do not consider themselves anarchists, but given a more complete understanding of what anarchy is (not how the Right has painted it), especially forms such as social or collective anarchism, I'd bet a lot of them would agree it doesn't sound so frightening. In some ways, the governance of Occupations via general assembly is, indeed, similar. Anarchy, in these forms, arose from libertarianism. It is sometimes, in fact, called "social libertarianism" or "libertarian socialism". (see Noam Chomsky) Yes. Libertarianism (the real kind, not the RPaul kind), and Socialism, compatibly intermixed, to create a more democratic and egalitarian society. That's essentially the premise. Whether it can, does, or will work can be questioned, of course, but the theory is interesting to contemplate. In general, anarchists also believe they are for the good of the people, all of the people, and the REAL good. For the record, I'm not advocating anarchy, but just an open mind. We tend to toss around a lot of big words, like "communist", "nazi", "socialist", "fascist" and "anarchist" around here, often without understanding what they are. It's interesting to note that when asked a serious of questions, without being informed that responses were related to capitalism v. socialism, a surprisingly large number Americans supported socialist ideals than otherwise (see below links), but the same folks, who had just supported socialist ideals, when asked if they would support socialism, responded negatively. Sometimes, even frequently, our ignorance and fear keep us from adopting positions from which we could benefit. None of this is meant to advocate anarchy, paint OWS as anarchists, discredit the movement, or encourage the right wing alarmists, so, I apologize if those seem the effects. Again, I'm merely advocating an open mind. The truth is, many on the right end, in the tea party, those who consider themselves "libertarians", while not even fully understanding that term or its origins (and I mean the real, working class folks, not the corporate puppet masters), would themselves probably find elements of anarchism that they would find agreeable (although they are generall to frightenend of such terms and close-minded to investigate thoroughly and with an open mind), too.
http://www.wichaar.com/news/286/ARTICLE/13572/2009-04-11.html http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2009/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism
I agree with everything you're saying. I too am totally openminded on this and there is a lot of grayish area which is a good thing. I do not directly oppose anarchy but there is no middle road anarchist.
The fabian labor historian Beatrice Webb said that there were two kinds of people in the labor movement, A's and B's, anarchists and bureaucrats and that she was a B.
The fact is there would be no OWS were in not for both A's and B's. Most of the initiators of OWS are profoundly influence by the anarchist intellectual tradition. While undoubtedly a minority of the movement at this point they remain its most articulate advocates. Virtually the only officially endorsed statement of OWS, the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City, is clearly strongly influenced by that thinking.
They are true revolutionaries but by no means sectarian. Among their very first act was to show their solidarity with organized labor, which has brought them the support of the B's a substantial number of labor unions, which is to say labor bureaucrats.
While the vast majority of OWS supporters at this point are in neither of these camps, I think it is safe to say that OWS would literally not exist were in not for both of these groups.
At the heading of this list is a call for worldwide revolution. That is either a serious proposition (and this is about fundamental social change, not a change of he faces of those in office or some mere legislative remedies--nor is it about violence vs. nonviolence)--or it is mere hyperbole. That, I think, is the most important question that faces us.
I agree on your last fact. Also I am familiar with Beatrice Webb's words and do agree.
The bottom line is this... what we are trying to achieve is to make many small changes but within those small changes is an ENTIRELY different world. The bottom line word is that we as a people will accept nothing else, period. I do not understand why the focus is not on these changes first and foremost here and now. DIRECTLY. I see in us the possibility of growing strong in every way if we were to focus our energy intelligently.
I don't know who "we" is. It may be true that the vast majority of OWS supporters want "many small changes" but that group is so ill defined and amorphous that it's hard to tell. I think it is pretty clear that the revolutionaries who are at the heart of OWS and its most articulate advocates want not only a lot more, but something entirely different than incremental changes. Again, take a look at the Declaration of the Occupation. That, it seems to me is about a lot more than incremental change which is one reason why its formulations cannot be reduced to mere demands. If one takes the notion of revolution seriously the real challenge is not formulating the correct demands, but putting so many people in action that demands are irrelevant because they will begin to reconstruct society democratically from below.
"As a "leaderless" movement OWS is very resistant to highly organized factions." <--- I don't know how in the fuck you figure that. Ever read a history book?
Actually I am ABD in history. To what historical events are you referring to precisely? If you have a lot in mind one or two examples will do.
Leaderless movements are resistant to organized factions of the existing authorities to disband them. They are highly susceptible, though, to the infiltration, co-opting and/or eventual usurpation of would-be authorities that take advantage of the non-transparency, non-accountability, mass emotion and power vacuum to seize control at the right moment. These would-be rulers can be unorganized or organized-- all they have to do is hop on top of the crowd and use it to whatever purpose they want.
Where is your evidence for this. In fact, I think there are very few historical social movement without an identifiable leadership. The Spanish anarchist movement is perhaps among the most outstanding of them and for all its shortcomings, I don't think it was ever taken over by some kind of elite. If anything it was quite congnizant of provacatuers, as, for that matter is OWS.
I don't see any nontransparancy or nonaccountability in OWS. If anything sitting through a GA will demonstrate how sluggish the whole decision making process is, but it certainly doesn't appear opaque or unaccountable. We are all accountable to each other.
Accountable to whoever is present at the meeting at a particular moment (and even this is only superficial accountability), but NOT to everyone in this country, who are being affected by the decisions made. (And we're talking about far more potentially serious effects than the afternoon subway commute.) And since there's no way it's even practically possible to have any more than a tiny fraction of the country present at even the largest meetings, the only way to be truly accountable to the country is to be elected by them based on thorough research of their qualifications and beliefs. People want to know what exactly is being decided for them and exactly by whom. Hence why we VOTE for ELECTED representatives.
The NYC GA doesn't claim to represent anybody but those present at any particular meeting of the NYC GA. Obviously it can't represent the whole nation and it doesn't claim to. Decisions and the GA are excuciatingly slow as anyone in attendence at any GA can attend. I've not seen any lack of transparancy at the GA or at any of its working groups.
It may not claim to represent the whole nation, but it advocates actions that affect the whole nation.
So do a lot of folks. So does Congress, the President, the Supreme Court, policy decisions of various federal agencies, etc. So what? Of course OWS does things could affect the whole nation (though given how tiny the movement is I would dispute just how significant such actions are), but isn't that the point of any political or social movement?
We ELECT members of Congress, we ELECT the President... and we can VOTE THEM OUT if they FUCK SHIT UP. As for how significant the actions of Occupy could be, I'd say, for example, that the call for replacing our entire political system with [?] is pretty significant.
The problem is we live in a corporate state. Democracy is a farce and an illusion when both parties and their candidates are owned lock, stock and barrel by the 1% and the megacorporations. What OWS calls for is actually fairly ambiguous. Certainly the grievances listed in the Declaration of the Occupation have revolutionary implications, but they are implications only and not explicitly stated, which is part of the reason why OWS has recieved the relatively broad support (though still a minority) that it has recieved so far.
Who are you? Why, we are the amerikan people!
You are kind of in line with my post Who is behind OWS and what is your real agenda. lol Here is a response I gave someone:
Let's see if I can summarize my thoughts and conclusions and why I have asked my initial question. On the contrary, I have been reading and spending a lot of time at not only this movement, but the US economy and world economies (but mostly the US) for the last two years and no I really do not read or listen to main stream media. I have a lot of fragments that I have yet to summarize in a neat little paragraph so I just itemize:
Go masturbate to videos of Dick Cheney.
The things are decided at the GA by everyone who attends.....everyone is a leader....that is why this will never die. everyone writes articles, everyone who participates does so in whatever way they choose which is why you see such a diversity of tactics in the 1000's of encampments that have sprung up all over this country alone. if there's anything to be put out in the open for all to see it 's the corruption and inherent secrecy of our government. this governent controls the most powerful military in the world and no one really knows who exactly is running the show. it isn't the president that's for sure. What has the CIA been doing for the last 50 years. What does the NSA do. Why does the FBI keep open files in law abiding citizens who choose to be politically active. Why does every politician who gets in to office eventually seem to serve corporate interests instead of the public? These are the questions the Occupation is asking and addressing. while we're on the subject of transparency: who are you? who do you work for? why are YOU attempting to divide this movement?? http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/19/8884405-lobbying-firms-memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-street
I agree with all of this. Which is why I have been and still continue physically and in every other way possible support this.
The real issue however on the ground however is that the choices, decisions, actions which are taken have not been thought out properly thus making the movement and its supporters something they are not. Does that make sense? The movement itself is not the issue. The actions and words are. I would rather we took serious, pointed, intelligent, direct action and said NOTHING. I would rather that no one person or group put words, thoughts, ideas to me. I would rather that each action were properly thought out and planned seeing all sides and having a specific, meaningful goal in the direction of all that we stand for.
I do not stand for thoughtless disobedient behavior. How can I continue to fully support anyone who goes in this direction? Who sees it more valuable to be disobedient than think and act in a way that will actually have a direct impact on the main goal? This MUST be the direction we go in and now or we will only gain opposition. Not only in those who already oppose us but in those who support us.
all i can say to that is patience......it is a movement that is trying to include everyone....individuals are going to act out in ways that do not represent the core values of this movement. it frustrates and enrages me as well and i see how the media picks up on these things immediately. i think our best hope is to be our own media and do our best to publicize the positive aspects of this movement which is easy since it's chock full of positive aspects. Four Agreements to help all through these trying times - http://www-scf.usc.edu/~zen/files/toltec.pdf
I hear you and I know, it's unfortunate.
I'm more concerned with the acts and actions we are taking in numbers though the is not to say that my concern for individuals is any less.
Why is it that ANYONE who asks questions is seen as someone trying to divide this movement?!?! Being able to ask questions is not allowed???
THAT is NOT a democracy. I have made it clear that I fully support the movement. Does that mean I go blindly saying yes and let's go to everything no questions asked??? HELL NO
Hi, Getitdone. I have to admit that when a question is asked, it should be answered thoughtfully, and I do see some pretty good answers here. However, capital letters imply shouting, and shouting implies that you already know the answer and are daring someone to answer you. It is too easy to infer different tones when reading the plain written word without the "histrionics" of capital letters, etc.
I'm sorry if that was misleading. I used to caps because VERY often here people lose total sight of the point/questions/issues being raised to instead choose one thing and go off on a tangent using accusatory nonsensical "philanthropy"... that's sarcasm sorry. If you want proof of these go ahead and read the replies from a few select "philanthropists" here.
"People think there is no one person or no one group of people but THAT's A LIE. GET IT OUT IN THE OPEN WHO AND WHAT THIS IS."
the above is not a question, that is a presumption stated as fact and that's why it sounds like you're trying to divide people. it's not because you ask questions, it's because of the questions you asked and the manner in which you asked them. you post is written like an attack, not someone with true concern for the success of this movement.
My concern is the wrong message being acted out on without due process and intelligent thought. My concern is that the voices being heard directly oppose mine and many others who fully support the movement. My facts come from being there and seeing what is actually going on. There is one group of people deciding, though that group may change in its members. I've seen it. You know this to be true. My concern is that what this movement is really all about is slowly being allowed to get lost in that groups opinion rather than the bigger picture.
People are making decisions, individuals, groups. Who decides what content is placed here? Who decides the words of said content speak for me?
As I said I would rather we equally chose, through an intelligent thought process, and acted directly and pointedly said absolutely nothing at all.
you're right people are making decisions. i have yet to see a any CLOSED groups making decisions. that is to say, if you don't like the decisions being made you should probably take a more active role in the decision making process. i know points of contact are almost always exceptionally difficult to locate, it took me nearly two weeks to figure out who is deciding content for the occupy oakland website but i did find out just last night in fact....there's a group that meets just about everyday to make decisions like this and others....they want more people in the group. the group changes on a regular basis because people come when they can. there are many other reasons why any cohesive organization is difficult in this movement. but it is happening and that alone is amazing to me. again i say patience, and i'll add perseverance as well since that is what you will need in order to figure out where the decisions are being made and how you personally can be more involved in the process. it can be done.
I agree. What I'm saying is that I would like to be able to find this out to be able to maintain an active role. There is no set meeting with any specific base or topic that I have witnessed. If you happen to be there great, otherwise you're out of luck. Part of what I'm saying is that there needs to be more direct access to those who wish to participate. Can you imagine the number of supporters that wish to be heard or vote? Can you see the growth?
That would be a pretty long list, as there were a hell of a lot of people involved; The november 17 actions had easily a hundred people meeting for it just at the organization meetups and that's not all the people in there. Various actions were autonomous and endorsed by local assemblies, etc.
You want names? I don't even have the names.
"You want names? I don't even have the names." <-- That right there is the entire problem and enormous danger of the "consensus" aspect of this movement. A shitty decision approved of by an UNELECTED miniscule fraction of the people in this country (i.e. to include violence as an acceptable tactic) gets made by friggin' who-the-hell-knows-who operating on who-the-hell-knows-what agenda and NO ONE is ACCOUNTABLE to be able to REMOVE or VOTE OUT when that shitty decision takes things in the wrong direction and starts to threaten mass destruction in this country. No transparency, no accountability, no expedient recourse. Whether naive or intentional, it's just begging for trouble. Ripe for the pickin'. That kind of shit is how Hitlers are made. If you don't want to risk THAT, as the vast majority of American's don't, then it's time for a re-think on strategy.
Except these people usually operate in groups and we can track the groups. We can tell who is trying to act to coopt us for, say, the dem 2012 campaign and we're not afraid of dealing with it. We can hold people accountable, but yes it adds its own difficulties.
you can't tell who's trying to co-opt if they are individuals gradually insinuating themselves into the movement under false pretenses and steer it in a bad direction by slowly shifting the message and having their numbers outnumber the original consensus so it takes over the consensus.
I'll be glad to answer in detail if you cut out your screaming. Edit all the caplocked words from all your posts in this thread, then message me and I'll come back with an answer.
msnbc, seiu, tides, Soros, Moore
PROOF or don't bother to post.
OWS is funded by TIDES, They are funded by George Soros, a known Rothschild agent and Zionist mastermind.
Simply a destabilization ploy to distract america and keep us from seeing the true threat of Zionism.
We're alot smarter than they think and soon OWS will turn against them.
watch me go.
If you or anyone else is going to post you better have PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR STATEMENTS.
Otherwise SHUT the FUCK UP. Period, no BS
http://kleinonline.wnd.com/2011/11/01/more-proof-occupy-wall-street-not-spontaneous-radical-agitation-groups-soros-funding-seek-global-financial-solutions/
I don't post BS. OWS was triggered by the enemy. just like the Egyptian revolution was. I was in Tahrir and am at Liberty park daily.
It is the ugly truth. Their money is all in a zionist controlled fund.