Forum Post: Beware Fragmentation Bombs
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 1, 2011, 1:42 a.m. EST by puff6962
(4052)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I have noticed a trend in the past 24 hours. There will be a popular thread with a good amount of participation and then, abruptly, the issue will be diverted by three or four different forum topics. It seems rather deliberate because these all appear at around the same time. Look at the threads that followed, "The New Christianity," if you want an example. Look at the libertarian topics, the Herman Cain topics.
It almost looks as if there is a concerted effort to distract and make this entire forum just a rambling stream of thought without ANY coherence.
Hi puff, Thank you for post. Best Regards, Nevada
Gotta be smarter than the trolls. Just ignore them. Don't respond to trolls. It's that simple.
Howdya' know its a troll? Because they chase you to argue or because they post tons of anti-Occupy rhetoric, which happens a lot?
but the trolls are co opting good topics and diluting them so that no one returns. it's a devilishly clever tactic.
well the periods where there will be the most traffic means that good threads will see more discussion, and so will bad threads.
what is new
It has been going on for a while and it is used as a method of covering over and suffocating good, concise ideas with blankets of other fruitless topics to steel reader attention away. Great ideas have been buried in this site to never being posted again.
True. And what you have noticed is not new. It has been going on for weeks. The really good effectual headlines don't get put up to the top or right menu either. And the amount of trolling Tea Bagging plants is amazing.
I thought it was just a rambling stream of thought without ANY coherence. Sorry.
here is my list of topics I've organized with a little bit of help
http://occupywallst.org/forum/forum-topics/
The reason this forum seems like a "rambling stream of thought without any coherence" is because it is. How do you expect it to be anything else? OWS doesn't have guidance, so any one can speak their mind on anything they want. When you give an equal voice to everyone, you end up having to read through the nonsense of idiots and teenagers to reach the golden nuggets written my critical thinkers. A good democracy needs guidance, it needs leaders since everyone does not have the intelligence, the experience, nor the talent to be a constructive voice. In the same way, everyone cannot be gardeners or policemen. Every great discussion is guided by an editor, anarchic free for all writing always produces a lot of crap.
Funny. I have no trouble using this forum. I think the problem might lie with you.
I certainly have no problem using it, but it would make it faster if good posts were separated from the drivel in some way. Posts get points, but I'm not too sure how that works, do you? It's workable, but it could be much more effective.
But your posts are drivel. So why would you be all for a system which would automatically remove your posts? And posts get points when you vote them up. Can't believe you didn't even know that.
For instance, I just voted your comment down, so now it has 0 points. Congrats. Democracy in action!
If people using the boards all think my posts are drivel, then they should be removed. I don't think democracy works when egos are involved. It makes no sense to me that my posts should be more or less important because of my ego.
That's more like a republic.
A good democracy has leaders who are kept in check. The problem in US at the moment is that the system to keep politicians in check is flawed. This can be fixed. If everyone tries to lead the nation together, it's going to fall apart. OWS can barely lead the campground together, never mind a neighborhood, or a nation.
yeah there needs to be a coherent solution, this site is seriously lacking in a "polls" section where users can start it up. right now attention is only in the big cities, smaller towns and such that aren't close are getting no say in the matter so far. most people have jobs and can't go down to the protests and even if they could, holding up a sign is basically useless when there are 1,001 other different signs each with their different demands, but it there was a place that polls could be taken in a progressive manner then i think something could happen that the majority could actually get behind. forums are so 00's
There was a link today on one of the comments for "We the People" web site at the White House where you can create a user account, create an 800 word petition with an expiration date and pass it along for signatures. Or you can sign one that is similar to your own grievance. I think that these protests are ready for this step if taken carefully and constructively. They do ask you on that site to view the other White House submissions before constructing a new one and warn that you must be willing to advertise it immediately because you have a time limit from the hour it is completed. We could draft, finalize the petitions here, then copy them to the White House site, then readvertise them here and on Twitter, Facebook etc. for signatures. There is one there currently for student loans which needs to be redone ith much higher standards in mind. But the higher we reach, the more enormous the signatures we should be able to capture. In other words, aim high. We could even submit petition ideas privately through email to the Occupy site and have Occupy put their name on them as the sponsors so we look united rather than single entity-sponsored.
Ya, there definitely needs to be a new type of platform for this type of discussion. Your posts have made this clear to me. Wikipedia managed to create a good encyclopedia using the input of anyone who wishes to contribute even if this was considered near impossible at the beginning. Planned well, I'm certain it would be possible to create a medium in which people could participate by providing topics and replies which would be able to filter out the nonsense and highlight the good stuff. Your ideas of polls and points are good, but they should be different from what we have already seen in other forums. I'm not sure exactly how, it's certainly something worth thinking about. One more thought, it would be nice if issues could be categorized by neighborhood, city, state, etc... People could then discuss issues which are specific to certain areas, or more general for the nation. There could be a system to detect cross patterns and link them together. For example, let's say a neighborhood in New-York is facing similar problems than one in Chicago, the discussions could be linked somehow and people of both neighborhoods could help each other. If one neighborhood tries to implement an idea, the other could follow up on what happens. When ideas are implemented, there could be graphs showing the results for example financial returns, crime drops, etc...
wow! that's pretty awesome. i haven't thought that deeply on it, but that would be a good addition for sure. a localization of subject matter for sure.
I'm a computer programmer, and your idea planted a seed in my head today. I'll think about this in more detail, then write some kind of article about it. There's definitely potential for a well structured democratic discussion platform. It could actually be cool to try a first implementation in Bali where I live since small village assemblies are already being held. This could be a way for them to follow up on issues in between assemblies and see what issues other assemblies in far away villages are dealing with. The only problem is that Internet access here is not yet widely spread.
There was a professional sociologist working on behalf of the movement. He did that survey about the levels of education within the movement etc. I don't recall his name or what university he was teaching at though. Maybe he could construct surveys based on different concerns brought forth by bloggers. Don't forget the written demands page is still available but I don't think they want to put that back up for any vote again because it already went through that system of consensus. The demands page is ready for the individual demands to be posted at the White House petition site "We the people" once they are shortened, honed and well advertised on Face Book, twitter and throughout the rest of the Occupy sites.
If I programmed such a site I wouldn't got through OWS. I would just put it up and let people use it. If it's good it would take on a life of its own like Wikipedia. I don't see why anyone with good ideas should have to wait for OWS. They aren't the center of the world. If you want to do something pro-active, just do it.
The internet is a big place of infinite space and words. Your petition site would be sandwiched in between thousands of other sites on the same subject. I think one of the problems with this country is all of the factionalism stemming from thousands of repeat petition sites so that there is never a continued allegiance to one petition ideal. It looks like petition mayhem out there. I sign about 60 of them weekly now and that is only because I have discontinued a few sites for peace of mind. Has Occupy started in your own country yet? It is still spotty in Asia. I just picked up followers in China recently that found me. I was surprised by them, the North Koreans, Syrians, and Bahrainians. Amazing how bad news travels so fast.
I'm not talking about a petition site, but a type of site that doesn't exist yet. I'm talking about a site geared towards letting small and large communities the social tools to discuss issues and send their solutions directly to their political representatives. Similar issues being discussed by two different communities could be brought together. Political representatives could be in direct daily contact with the people who form their communities. A social site specifically designed for political discussion amongst citizens and directly connected to all political parties and representatives. The site could also keep track of all discussions in congress and in the office of your cities. What happened in the mayor's office yesterday. It's on the site. Etc...
This may be a really good and useful idea.
Ya, and some of those rambling idiot teenagers think a direct democracy is the way to get things done. It take 500+ people weeks and mothns to come to a conclusion, imagine what 200,000,000 would be like with every discussion being like this mess
The demands page was finished a long time ago. Shows how beyond the times you are.
did everyone vote on the demands or just the G.A.?
What conclusions? The demands page has been finished for weeks and is already in print. A direct democracy would still go a lot faster and smoother than things do in Congress. The people of this movement and country are very able to care and get things done.We don't need a congress. we are perfectly able to run this country.This Occupy movement has gone farther and done it faster and better than any movement of its kind, which terrifies the powers that be. They have gotten serious piles of things done in just one month because everyone is so well connected. As far as slow deciders or those who don't have time to care, they would lose out because voting would only be open for so long.
HAHA! you really think that? you think your could get even half of America to decide on even one fucking theng god forbit a national budget? Why the hell should Average Joe have as much saying as an economics professor in monetary policy? You know what direct democracy is? It's idiots who think the business of running a nation is the same as running a small band of like minded idiots that want to change it. Direct democracy above even a sub-local level is a joke and a disaster waiting to happen.
The idea of a direct democracy is failing in my household alone lol! You're right, the larger the mass becomes, the more the need for a leader becomes obvious. These kids are having a hard time using direct democracy to run their winter wonderland at Zuccotti park.
On August 2, 2011 at the very first meeting of what was to become Occupy Wall Street, about a dozen people sat in a circle in Bowling Green. The self-appointed “process committee” for a social movement we merely hoped would someday exist, contemplated a momentous decision. Our dream was to create a New York General Assembly: the model for democratic assemblies we hoped to see spring up across America. But how would those assemblies actually operate?
http://occupywallst.org/article/enacting-the-impossible/
My view is that these types of assemblies are only useful on a small level, perhaps for neighborhoods. Actually, you should study how it's being done in Asia and most specifically in Indonesia where I am currently living. In Indonesia, the political system used to be monarchies, but now it is a Republic. However, the idea of neighborhood assemblies have existed for a long time and still exist. In Bali, every small neighborhood as a banjar and a kepala desa (village leader). Village leaders are usually elders and are designated by the population. They take care of small matters related to the neighborhood, and when bigger issues arise, they pass the information on to the deputies working in the political system. Note: These small assemblies led by village leaders are not officially part of the political system. They serve as a way for the neighbors to keep in touch and to know what's going on. People also look out for each other. It's a very social system which differs from what you would expect in America. Asian culture is very much based on the idea of community. For example, older people take care of younger people. You will often see kids alone in Indonesia, then suddenly an adult they do not know comes by and takes care of them. If I see my neighbor's kid doing something wrong, I can punish him or her because I am older. They must respect me. This would never happen in America. Imagine me punishing your kid, or taking care of him will you were inside a store doing groceries. Political systems have to be in sync with culture.
We already have systems for this.
We already have systems in place that can be re-vamped.
sounds reasonable that would constitute a much wider representative base
haha. Did you hear about their I Pad experiment?
No. Do tell.
http://www.nycga.net/2011/10/
then "control" "f" and type in pad. it's the first hit.
Some people sent a requesition order into the G.A. to buy a I-Pad with the OWS's money. Thier plan was to test out methods of direct democracy on it some how
Good idea. Time to take the place over. Article V of the Constitution. Please read and get ready. Also see ChristopherAbrownArt5 comments on this site.
Have I mentioned Lon Rawl?
What about him?
Well, it goes along with the incoherent message of OWS.
it is. and some are not with ows, but some are with ows. there are people in control of this, they just want You to be decentralized while they push Their agenda. good to see people paying attention.