Forum Post: Benjamin Franklin quote for those who love to quote Founding Fathers...
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 5, 2011, 8:46 a.m. EST by guitarjake1968
(15)
from Overton, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
“The remissness of our people in paying taxes is highly blamable; the unwillingness to pay them is still more so. All the property that is necessary to a man for the conservation of the individual and the propagation of the species is his natural right, which none can justly deprive him of; but all property superfluous to such purposes is the property of the public, who by their laws have created it, and who may therefore by other laws dispose of it whenever the welfare of the public shall demand such disposition. He that does not like civil society on these terms, let him retire and live among the savages."--Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Robert Morris, 1783.
I don't understand your elation here. He's saying that whatever personal property a man has to live on is his, and whatever property he needs to make his living. All he's really saying is that there are some public lands. Streets, towns, national parks.
Conservation of the individual doesn't mean he can only own what will provide him bare necessities. It means whatever property an individual needs to make his way in this world.
It's easy to twist words to your own meaning, but it makes your position look weaker when you do.
Talk about twisting words. Show me where he mentions, hints at, alludes to, or even gives a glimmer of a reference to property OTHER than that owned by the individual. Where you get this inference that he's pitting personal property against "public lands" is really blowing my mind. He says, "taxes." And I didn't TWIST anything, either. I just supplied the quote. Interesting. (My all caps is not shouting, by the way, just emphasis). Peace!
I was talking about the respondees being elated, like this was some kind of justification about, and I quote(your quote), "property superfluous to such purposes is the property of the public." Yes he opens talking about taxes, but he also helps define and bolster private lands and holdings.
And yes, everyone should pay the taxes assigned to them, but those taxes should be flat, fair, and without deduction. Everyone. Everyone should pay their fair share of taxes. In that Ben and I agree.
Ah.
I agree. I need 4 billion dollars to make my way in this world. And I need it right now.
The use our capitalist system and earn it like so many others have. If OWS would have their way (which ultimately is an impossibility) you'll never have the chance again.
Agreed!!!
Yep, this movement started over 235 years ago, it just got a little off kilter. Go Ben!
"These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their county; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny like hell is not easily conquered yet we have this consolation with us, the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value." -- Tom Paine after the Declaration of Independence
I would say the occupiers are living among the "savages" now, wouldn't you?
I hear so often "If you think this country is so messed up, go live somewhere else." I would, but it isn't that easy to do. It isn't like a couple hundred years ago when, if you could afford to get on the boat, you could go wherever the seas took you. Now there are immigration rule, paperwork and stiff limitations.
Besides, it is our duty to stay and try to reform the mess that is here.
Agreed.
stop living in the past you idiots
Nice statement to illustrate one of our founding concepts. May I add two links on the founding perception concerning the concept of one generation's right to bind another: http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl81.htm http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/paine_dissertations_on_first_prin.html
If the majority of the OWS does not make enough money to pay the 'progressive income tax' and expects the other 49% of the people to pay for them, are they 'savages'?
When the Philadelphia Convention of 1787 adjourned from writing the Constitution, a woman was waiting at the door. She asked delegate Benjamin Franklin what they wrought, and he said a constitution for “a republic, if you can keep it.”
I see you've read Brand's biography! :-)
Hoping we can keep it!
'We The People' can only hold on to our 'Constitutional Republic' if we elect Representatives that will honor their oath of office to 'Republicanism', instead of advancing socialism thru democracy.
"Property is Theft!"
"Property is Liberty!"
"Property is Impossible!"
-Pierre-Jospeh Proudhon
Occupy the foreclosures and abandoned property- it would make Ben proud.
They're owned by the banks. They're private property and you would be arrested for trespassing. I'd stick to the public parks if I was you.
Meanwhile downtown a potential farmer hopes that when he reaches the front of the line in the basement of the church there will still be some food.
[Removed]
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." Benjamin Franklin
And will find neither.
Whoah! I think that should be officially added to that quote, with respect to Mr.Franklin
I keep meaning to put this one on a shirt
It's a good one, isn't it? No need to look who it's from, just the message itself is powerful.
So many of his words are T-shirt worthy. I'm afraid the one I posted wouldn't quite fit.
Hah! Yeah, I highly doubt that...unless someone is big enough to clearly display the words.
So many fiscal conservatives, Tea Partiers, Republican Congress members, and other numbskulls revel in MIS-quoting our Founding Fathers...Franklin and Jefferson in particular. Rarely do they supply the date or source of the quote, and when they do a little research (which they DON'T) they find their pet quotes to be error-laden, or just plain fictional. I thought Dr. Franklin's comments to his friend would be nice to share, along with the source and year.
Thanks.
"All the property that is necessary to a man for the conservation of the individual and the propagation of the species is his natural right..."
all the property that is necessary was bought up or taken many generations ago - we are but slaves now
Check out LetsGetTheFactsStraight.com
“If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, and give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses.
And the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they do now, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mis-managers to account; but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains around the necks of our fellow sufferers.
And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second, that second for a third, and so on 'til the bulk of the society is reduced to be mere automations of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering.
And the forehorse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression."
Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom?
Material abundance without character is the path of destruction.”
Thomas Jefferson 1816 Third President of the United States 1801 -1809, Drafter of the Declaration of Independence, Founder of the University of Virginia
Taxes must be paid, however, those taxes must be at a level to sustain only what is needed. Politicians of today spend then raise taxes to pay for the spending. Conversely, spending should be capped in relation to revenue. Government spending must be cut and cut DEEPLY. Get rid of unnecessary (and unconstitutional) programs and you will create a lean focused government.
absolutely.. put an end to foreign aid!
I agree to a point. I have no problem helping our allies, but absolutely no aid to those who stand against us.
allies or not. if people have problem with welfare.. then welfare to other countries should be the first entitlement that is affected with spending cuts
We have come to accept the infallibility of the founding fathers with blind faith. They were not held in such high esteem by each other. While George Washington was loved and venerated by all, Jefferson hated Hamilton, Hamilton hated Adams, AND THEY ALL DESPISED FRANKLIN because of his, "holier than thou," attitude. As far as Robert Morris is concerned, (one of the few men to sign the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, and US Constitution) in his capacity as Minister of Finance during the revolution he did manage to supply the American forces with the necessary provisions to carry on the fight. But this is also where the tradition of privatization begins. Morris made a gigantic fortune for himself in the process, the two enterprises being so co-mingled it is impossible to discover where the finance of the revolution ends and where his own business deals begin.
I can't disagree with you regarding Morris, nor the adoration afforded Washington. But of the "big name" Founding Fathers, Adams was the only one who despised Franklin to my knowledge, and that mostly out of jealousy. The others, almost to a man, admired, respected, and loved him...Jefferson foremost among them. And for Franklin's assumed "holier than thou" attitude, it was warranted. Now...back to more pressing issues...
Thank you guitarjake, now I don't have to respond to this obfuscation.
The animosities I refer to come from an account in David McCullough's biography of John Adams.
And, despite their enmity toward one another--rooted in basic personalilty differences more than politics--they DID work together for the common good of their budding nation. Which is more than I can say for our current political leaders.
Excellent biography by an excellent biographer!
I think we're on the same page (sorry for the pun) If you haven't read the Adams bio it's worth the read. It also details some of Franklin's less than holier activities in Paris. McCullough's "1776" is also great.
I have. McCullough is outstanding, perhaps our preeminent biographer. I recommend H.W. Brand's "The First American" for a look at Franklin. He does not sugarcoat Franklin's behavior in France. But I've been accused of being an Epicurean, so such activities tend to impress rather than repulse me.
Our government hasn't taken care of our soldiers since day 0! William Clark (of Lewis and Clark fame) had a brother (the oldest of ten children) that fought on the Frontier during the revolution. He and his rag tag "backwoods" team were instrumental in keeping the British at bay by shutting down forts that hired Native Americans as mercenaries. As the leader he was responsible for signing for supplies at local merchants. He was continually promised reimbursement. It never came! He died a lonely alcoholic living with his parents because he was so far in debt he couldn't even own a little cabin in the woods somewhere.
You are absolutely right, and Shay's Rebellion was fought for the same reason. Not only were the army regulars not paid, the government tried to tax them to pay off the wealthy merchants who had lent money for the war effort.
Isn't it funny how we spent 15 years creating this brand new country and within months the government were squashed Shay's Rebellion for airing their grievances!
Hmm...sounds familiar.
Very interesting from a research standpoint relating to the later issues of the end of constitutional government that followed the civil war.----
http://algoxy.com/poly/emergency_powers_statutes.html
In that war, the north, ostensibly divided along lines much blurrier than you describe the minister of finance involved with, with facts certainly concealed; was provided money and industrial arms manufacturing assitance by England.-----
There are unwholesome rumbings about Franklin relating to his English trips and agreements following the Declaration of Independence and his association with the "hellfire club". Now, all that could easily and probably is subterfuge to attempt sullying Franklins reputation and his resulting power as a natural law philosopher contributing greatly.-----
Although there is some confusion, Franklins acts seemingly working with that of Adams and Jay in agreements involving France and Britian because it all worked to Americas advantage, is safely assumed to be conjunct actions having similar intent.-------
Meaning the acts of your friends and yourself together can be used to judge you more accurately than any lie history might draft and record.
And war became a racket until the Rockefellers (read the 1%) funded Hitler and the US and Russia at the same time during WWII. Who cares who's killing who when you're making money hand over corpse? The Rothschilds manage all these countries anyway through funding and defunding.
Yes, but did he not live like royalty and did he not prefer France to the US? John Adams found him to be a bit of a blow hard and did not particularly care for the man.
John Adams was a prude AND a blow hard, and Franklin did not care for him. It's a matter of "choosing your camp" on this one. Franklin also did not live like royalty. He was wined and dined at the expense of heads of state in both England (early on) and France (near the end), but never at his own expense. He "did well" as a publisher and had a comfortable and secure income, but he was never "wealthy." He and Deborah owned only one home, and it was modest. And no, Franklin did NOT prefer France to America. He spent extended time there on two occasions, and made the best of it. But he did so at he request of the budding new republic, as a servant, and he risked his life (suffering gout and a kidney stone) to make a final voyage home to die in his beloved America, when he could have spent his final days lounging around in the parlors of the French elite. In fact, contrary to myth, he never even learned to speak French very well...passable at best.
Benjamin Franklin had the 1780s equivalent of billions of dollars. He retired at age 40, and then spent the rest of his life in leisure. Sound like anybody we know (Bill Gates)??
Franklin didn't retire from public service till mere months before his death at 84. And he was far from wealthy. Stay clear of urban myths, Internet lies, and forwarded emails. Peace!
come on be fair - gates has given away how much?
ben retired from making money - and served his country.
True but that only started AFTER he was sued by the US DOJ for antitrust monopolistic practices. He started doing that because his lawyers said, "It's good PR and will impress the judge." He was never generous with his money prior to the lawsuit.
As for Franklin, he clearly didn't practice what he preached in this quote. "Excess wealth should belong to the public good." Really? So how come he had the equivalent of billions in his bank account? He never allowed the government to tax him and take it.
He also used to say "Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise." And then he stayed up til 5 am partying. The point I'm making is that the real man did not live-up to his quotes. In fact most men don't. (Like Buffet who owes billions in taxes that he refuses to pay.)