Forum Post: Be careful what you wish for!
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 20, 2011, 1:05 a.m. EST by proudamerican26
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The OCW movement just makes me sick. As a former Marine who has traveled to over 20 countries in South America, Asia, the Middle East, and Europe. I have seen tyranny, oppression, depression, theft, revolution, war, communism, socialism, and the truly poor. OCW supporters do not seem to be educated or knowledgeable about what they are standing up for, or who they are standing next to or with. Though our system of government and capitalism is not perfect, and freedom allows for corruption as well as ignorance to rear their ugly heads, our government is the best and most successful option in the world.
We must remember that for the most part, Business Owners, Politicians, Laborers, Upper Class, Middle Class, and the unfortunate are all good people. To stand and say that mistakes by our government, banks, and capitalism is the reason for, or justifies revolution or a conversion to socialism, is a demonstration of ignorance. Look at the labor conditions in other countries, look at the continuous failure and oppression due to socialist policies, look at history…..
If you use facts and figures to support your rhetoric, if you really understand history, economics, and business, if you just travel outside of the United States and experience or observer what you are asking for, you will see we are the richest country in the world that takes care of its people better than any other. There is no place that has the freedoms, entitlements, opportunities, labor laws and conditions, and higher educational system like the US. There is no place like home, if you don’t like it here and you believe revolution, violence, and anarchy is the answer to change, you are un-American in my eyes. If you want freedom to explore and live your Socialist, Communist, Marxists ideologies….. Leave….. Go abroad to those countries who will give you what you seek….
If you love America and are proud to be an American you can start your own business, run for office, work with your government to change laws and policies, change jobs if you think you don’t get paid enough or don’t like their policies, make good choices for your future, be responsible for taking on too much personal debt, educate yourself on investments so you don’t make bad decisions, stop or start voting for policies or people to help control spending and create an environment that allows entrepreneurs to prosper, help your neighbors, strive to make positive changes. As a country we have lost our loyalty to our Country, to God, and to our neighbors. We have an entitlement mentality that wants something for nothing and thinks we are owed something. This is not what the foundation of our country was based on.
The US used to be the 99% where we helped and stood by each other allowing people to make their own choices….. Life is about choices. In the past when things got tough, the country banded together and created new opportunities together. Are you part of the problem or the solution? Do you love being an American and believe in our system of government?
I'm also a marine. Yes we do have it better then some but should we just give that up?? I drive truck now and travel the country there are poor and homeless everywhere. And it's not just crackheads it's 40-50 year old normal people. It's young kids. Its not just like the drunken drug addict anymore it's tons of different people. I'm housing my homeless brother in law right now he looks for all sorts of work and nothing.
To understand America, the real America, the one where people live, love, work, play and too often do without, one needs the 'boots on the ground'...I too was a driver, and I too was a business owner, and I understand both sides...
As a driver I went into places, often at night, that even the police wouldn't go into. I saw things, spoke with people that others wouldn't want to.
No, those kids 'camping' don't know, matter of fact, most Americans don't know what it's like to live in a tent or a camper for not weeks but years. Not because of irresponsibility, not because of lack of fiscal responsibility but because the job won't pay for all of the basics...
America has a hidden underbelly, where too many live. Some of these people were once successful, earned a good living, one might even call them upper management. When the jobs go so do the people.
There's America on several levels and the middle level sees itself sliding downward and those below it see no way up. Believe me they are looking, they have been for a very long time.
You are soooo right. But I can't tell what you think of protesters camping for free. Or the effectiveness of ows in it's current form. The middle class is falling but do you really feel like ows speaks for you? I have a problem with entitlements since most of my friends chidren are bastard machines, but I believe the guy who got a job, started a family and after 10+ yrs finds himself unemployed, losing his house thru no fault of his own deserves the safety net most entitlements were really mean to be. Not sure what to do about it, but I AM sure OWS in it's present form is NOT the answer.
I think, and this is just my opinion, that OWS is doing what it's supposed to do, for the moment.
It's gained attention to the plight of the middle class, it's brought people together in a way that hasn't happened in a very long time, the 9/11 event was a totally different type of unity...
We are talking now, some person to person, some online, others by letters to congressmen/women. Whether or not OWS is a good representation of our discontent, it is at the very least a visible indication of that discontent.
Divineright, who posted below says "If you take anything from the OWS situation, at least realize it may be a catalyst to get the average citizen more involved."
That is what OWS has done for us, it's forcing us to shake off our apathy, to actually sit up and take notice of what is happening to us, all of us, not just the elderly, not just those in poverty, not just the unemployed...all of us.
I've read statements like, Give me my country back. I've been guilty of it as well...I like others seem to have temporarily forgotten that WE are America, we are the country, rich, poor, and in between.
We are so much more diverse than any statistics show us to be, than stats can show us to be.
We look upon entitlements as either a charity work or as a paid program, most of us have paid into those programs, not by choice but by mandate...an few of us complained.
We didn't complain because we knew that those 'entitlements' were in place for us too...that if our bodies or our minds failed us we had supplied our share toward the safety net.
Paid our share...entitlement? We Paid Our Share.
Some of us paid more than others, some of us were fortunate to be able to do so. Some of us paid less, but it doesn't mean we didn't pay.
OWS...it's growing, I don't mean in numbers, although that is part of it, but rather in skill and it's making mistakes along with that growth. Mistakes is how learning occurs and some mistakes or at least what appear at the moment to be mistakes need to happen, because it is those very mistakes that gain the most attention for good or ill.
OWS is a cross section of America, young, middle aged, slightly older, each segment has it's own needs that should be addressed and each segment sees some of the same things that NEED to be addressed.
Is OWS the answer? I don't think it's meant to be. I think it's the alarm clock and there is no snooze button on it.
OK. I still don't like the tactics...I really don't think the 1st amendment was ever about assembly for wks as vagrants and squatters, Despite my disdain for this AND (at least) MY perception of the forces behind the movement (tho I now grin over my opinoin..ok, ALL OF THIS IS MY OPINION),,,anyway, I am grinning over the fact that the middle class has finaly said, you know these people that have been moblized by unknown forces with unkown agendas have awoken many people to start wriitng their reps and complaining about campaign finance issues, lobbyists and the screwed up federal income tax law. We have co-opted the movement to demand change within the existing system. The idiots that lit the fuse have lost control over the fire. All to the good. I love the fact they thought they could ignite fighting in the streets. That won't happen, but MSM is finally discussing taxes. Interesting to me that they haven't grabbed campaign finance by the horns. I think real change will be the result, not the chaos the instigators were aiming for,.
Sometimes it takes drastic cause to achieve even small effects.
I think there is a lot of assumption of what the 'instigators' were aiming for...chaos is actually easy to achieve, very hard to end. Sitting here in front of my computer I can quickly think of several 'agencies' that could be 'encouraged' to create chaos. Better to have several different 'agencies' all working at cross purposes active than to do what is being done by the OWS.
If I, who has no interest in creating chaos, can see ways to do so, someone, person or group, could see many more ways to achieve the end.
If we have co-opted the movement, then let's hope this 'tool' continues working long enough that discussion becomes action.
Don't give up. Keep doing what you can. Research legislation. Vote. Look for solutions and spread the word about the help you find. If you take anything from the OWS situation, at least realize it may be a catalyst to get the average citizen more involved.
Semper Fi! Give up on what? I listed several real American options other than violence and following false or inaccurate information. The true goals of leaders behind the OCW movement are to overthrow/change or method of government and collapse the economy. Know who you are following and what they stand for.
I am a small business owner and I travel the US too, 4 days a week all across the nation (via plane, not truck) I’m not sure I agree there are no jobs... Have you looked at a job posting boards lately? There are thousands of jobs out there. Problem is that people need to get themselves qualified, get off the extended unemployment benefits, and be willing to take a job... any job... There are many different ways and opportunities to earn a living.
Also, your facts or assumptions seem flawed: PRESS RELEASES | 15 JUN 2011 Homelessness in the United States did not increase significantly during the height of the recession, according to the Annual Homeless Assessment Report to Congress (AHAR) released by the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) yesterday. The flat numbers, in spite of an idling economy, are a testament to improved homeless assistance systems and the adoption of housing-based strategies to end homelessness. However, budget cuts at the federal, state, and local levels threaten to destabilize the efforts made to avert increases in homelessness. The report, based on 2010 data, shows a one percent increase in overall homelessness from 2009 to 2010. Subpopulations, including individuals, unsheltered homeless people, and persons in families increased slightly; 0.75 percent, 2.76 percent, and 1.61 percent respectively. Chronic homelessness continued to decline, dropping one percent. Experts largely attribute the continual decline in chronic homelessness to the broad implementation of best practices to serve chronically homeless people, namely permanent supportive housing.
The movement is to effect change back to what this country was meant to be. Read what our founding fathers say about corporations taking their plate at the political table.
The FOUNDING FATHERS made their meaning clear when they drafted the CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES and the AMENDMENTS.
Thomas Jefferson – “I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
Thomas Jefferson – “If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
Thomas Jefferson – “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.”
John Adams – “Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or will ever do good.”
James Madison – “History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it’s issuance.”
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Hang in there. If you have spent any time on this site, you will see that the REAL 99% isn't buying what OWS is ultimately selling...revolution and anarchy. Most of us appreciate the fact that God chose to put us here instead of most elsewhere. They have done us a TREMENDOUS favor by raising awareness of some of our country's shortcomings, but that's as far as it goes. I believe Americans have been fired up to seek political change the way we have tended to do thru out our history. At the ballot box and working our reps.
But there seems to be a problem I.E. that the villains are using politicians as their henchmen.
Not sure I follow, but we are mad and we aren't gonna take it anymore. OWS was a shove in the back. However, I think they need to pat themselves on the back and go home.
Most if not ALL politicians are just puppets of the moneyed, so vote for whomever you choose of either party the results will mostly be the same. Ever notice how those who take a stand usually lose? Alan Grayson is a good example...
Right now, OWS is stirring up progressive debate. You aren't getting that from the major media, and I also will include in that the so-called liberal media. So, we are taking to the streets and doing it ourselves. You probably would be surprised at what kinds of different ideas are springing up in different locations.
I agree that OWS could be doing more, but there are so many people involved that have different interests. It is great to see people finally rising up and telling the corporate interests that there are some in this society who will no longer sit back and put up with your self-serving agenda. History has shown that this can't be done at the ballot box. That's what the corporate community wants. That lets them off the hook. Not anymore. Maybe it will take years before something substantial gets done.
There is no real 99%. There is just the 99%. It has many factions. Some of them choose to favor the policies set forth by the 1%. Some of them refuse to acknowledge us, because they are not seeing action happening right now. Unfortunately, America has become a very fast-moving, impatient nation. If you can't slow down your pace of life for just a moment on a mental scale and take a good hard look at things, I bet you will continue to find OWS outside of your interests, whether you agree with us or not.
Wake up... As a 53 year old vet I am here to tell you that all you have done is defend business interests. Business is now the government. Business runs the government. YOU have been used brother and it's time to come to grips with it.
If freedom means nothing more than the ability to shop where you want you can have it...
Well said, sir.
You have the misperception that those of us that are working towards change are poor, ignorant and have never been to another country; wrong on all counts. You have the mispersecption that because we have not been active duty we have not been to war; I have the bullet hole and other sundry scars that say different.
I have a choice, fix this country or leave. Until this movement we was preparing to move to Greece. Been there and it is a nice place, most of the Greek people speak English which makes it easier. I know no work. It doesn't matter if I bring my own money; that should tell you that we are not poor.
This movement stopped me cold. We have an opportunity to fix this country for those that come after us; isn't that what you were fighting for as a Marine?
JFK said "ask not what your country can do for you..." Why not? Why would I support a country that did not serve its citizens? Blind loyalty is not patriotism. A patriot sees the threats to our country and fixes them.
I am not fighting for myself. I can leave or set up to leave if I so desire. Others can't and it is for them that I fight. Sure, I will benefit from this too but it is for others.
If you read into my posting and perceived that I said anything about OCW followers being poor or not traveling the world, that was not my intent. I absolutely did not insinuate they were ignorant, however, I think there is a large majority who do not know (uneducated or misinformed) who they are following and the goals of many of the leaders involved. I do know the OCW movement consists of a diverse spectrum of Americans, that is what worries me most. I started with my experience traveling the world and my firsthand knowledge of the polices and methods the OCW leaders are advocating as I’ve seen in other countries. Also, I am all about fixing our problems. However, I am not for putting everyone in the perceived top 1% in a bucket and calling them bad or greedy. There are many philanthropists who have contributed their wealth to colleges, causes, and others. For the most part we, everyone in America are good people. Unfortunately there are the 10% who you have to look out for. I do believe those who have broken the law should be held accountable. I do not believe in the socialist, violent, revolutionist actions the OCW are embracing. I believe there are other ways to influence change.
I have respect for others but I get tired of the continued comparison of the intelligence of most of the OWS followers to a spoonful of dirt.
I drafted an amendment to our Constitution that does not fix the problems but it does give the Citizens the tools to fix the problems that plague the country.
I love my country and will fight to protect it. If I have to shoot and kill some invader then that is what I have to do. If I have to take on Corporate America and the legislators to save my country, then that is what I have to do. I am not some kid talking out my ass.
http://www.nycga.net/groups/political-and-electoral-reform/docs/amendment-28-to-the-constitution-of-the-united-states-of-america
If any wish to read it.
You can read all my posts and you will never hear me use separatist terminology. This fight is all inclusive including the Police and all working people, all doctors; it must be all inclusive or it means nothing.
I am out for the night.
The question seems like a non sequitor to me. The fact is the 1% has stolen billions from us though political manuevering that amounts to legalized theft and we want it back. The fact is they've also stolen billions from the 99% in the rest of the world and they want it back too and we stand in solidarity with them.
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Please give us your definitions of "socialism" and "communism". And while you're at it, tell us how our "freedoms, entitlements, opportunities, labor laws and conditions, and higher educational system" are better than those of any of the countries of western Europe, and if you intentionally or inadvertently omitted "medical care". Then tell us why we should allow the wealthy to buy elections through their contributions to campaigns, and whether among the "entitlements" you reject is the pension you get with its cost of living increases. You do realize, of course, that your opinion is at odds with that of Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler. I am presuming that you know who he is.
You're right about one thing. We do have an entitlement mentality. We seek the entitlement of being able to run and operate things the way we want to without being coerced by corporate and religious interests. We seek the entitlement of being able to live comfortably without financial and corporate interests micro-managing our lives.
My question to you: Do you know what a "structural adjustment" program is?
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Sir i am not addressing you as a troll but as a gentleman with respect. Sadly it seems you believe the smear of this movement and not how it really is. Did you know not long ago 170 economists signed a statement of support for this movement? Look at the crowds, theres people from all ages, professionals, skilled and unskilled tradesman, business people, etc, not just young educated college people. These complaints about corporations and the government can and are documented going back at least 3 decades. I ask of you sir, please find the more knowledgeable elements and see what they can show you. For instance, Lawrence Lessig, Professor at Harvard Law School on the corrosive influence of Money in Politics and of course taking no sides politically. I also ask you this, do you know how many corporations didnt pay any taxes, even owed money by the governement at the end of the year and how long this went on for. Thats not one damn bullet for the soldiers, not one dime for the families of falling soldiers, hell they even profited hughly off the wars. Do you think this is right ? Theres more, alot more. This degradation of this country for corporate profits to say the least has to stop sometimes and the time is now.
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Thoughts from a real American. Bet he feels like he has been had.
I would suggest a little more time investigating what we're all about before making these largely inaccurate statements. We are not advocating violence, quite the opposite. We do not endorse changing our present system to a Socialist or Communist country. And it's OWS, not OCW.
You don't seem to understand.
One word... hypocrite
Big business's ideas of govt
Socialism- giving a poor child a loaf of bread to eat
Capitalism- giving banks billions of dollars in bailout money
Please, make your point more melodramatic: have the one percent kicking the poor in the teeth and the socialist creating utopia.
Lol I thought I went far enough.
Lol.....for the first time, perhaps, we agree.....shit, still laughing..................! Lol
Semper Fi! Give up on what? I listed several real American options other than violence and following false or inaccurate information. The true goals of leaders behind the OCW movement are to overthrow/change or method of government and collapse the economy. Know who you are following and what they stand for.
I am a small business owner and I travel the US too, 4 days a week all across the nation (via plane, not truck) I’m not sure I agree there are no jobs... Have you looked at a job posting boards lately? There are thousands of jobs out there. Problem is that people need to get themselves qualified, get off the extended unemployment benefits, and be willing to take a job... any job... There are many different ways and opportunities to earn a living.
Also, your facts or assumptions seem flawed: PRESS RELEASES | 15 JUN 2011 Homelessness in the United States did not increase significantly during the height of the recession, according to the Annual Homeless Assessment Report to Congress (AHAR) released by the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) yesterday. The flat numbers, in spite of an idling economy, are a testament to improved homeless assistance systems and the adoption of housing-based strategies to end homelessness. However, budget cuts at the federal, state, and local levels threaten to destabilize the efforts made to avert increases in homelessness. The report, based on 2010 data, shows a one percent increase in overall homelessness from 2009 to 2010. Subpopulations, including individuals, unsheltered homeless people, and persons in families increased slightly; 0.75 percent, 2.76 percent, and 1.61 percent respectively. Chronic homelessness continued to decline, dropping one percent. Experts largely attribute the continual decline in chronic homelessness to the broad implementation of best practices to serve chronically homeless people, namely permanent supportive housing.
you're repeating yourself.
strange. you haven't bothered to answer my questions. Is it perhaps because you have no answers?