Forum Post: Asking for a sincere response, not a troll
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 27, 2011, 9:06 a.m. EST by Frustrated39
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Reposting a comment/plea for clarification that I made yesterday. I'm not a troll, or a sheeple, just a citizen of this country just like the rest of you who is becoming more and more concerned about where this movement is headed.
But first - just so you know where I am coming from. I'm in the 99% bracket, but the upper end. I've spent a LOT of time near the bottom, though. I've gotten food stamps, had Medicaid for my kids, put myself through school (with some student loans), been a victim of domestic violence who pulled myself up (with help from a lot of different sources).
Here is my post from yesterday, and please understand that I'm not knocking a lot of the ideas this movement started with, I just don't think I can continue to support a movement that looks like it is heading towards violence as the answer:
I've been watching this website for awhile, trying to see if anything realistic and worthwhile would come forward...something cohesive to throw my hat behind.
Frankly, I see a lot of disgruntled people with no focus and a wide array of complaints but no real plan besides (to paraphrase from various posts on this website):
1) Take money from the rich by force. 2) Write letters to CEOs that will never actually make it to them. 3) Have celebrities (who are IN the 1% and also take a ton of tax write offs) endorse you. 4) Yell loudly in my local town in front of a bank branch.
And before you refer to me as a troll, one of the sheeple, aiding and abetting the 1%, etc, hear me out.
The more you become divisive in your protests (which many seem to advocate, sadly), the more that regular American people will discredit what you are doing.
It has been brought up more than once on this website that perhaps instead of railing against CEOs, 'Banksters', etc, you should MOVE your occupation to D.C., since those people actually care what you think of them. Do you really think that Jamie Dimon gives a rat's ass at this moment in time? Nope.
I get excited when I see the rare poster who brings up points like the fact that while it may not be morally correct for a CEO to take a huge bonus, it's not illegal. It also wasn't the banks who gave the more toxic of the mortgage-backed securities and cdos the rating that allowed them to be purchased - it was the rating companies. It wasn't Big Banks who started the push toward sub-prime lending, it was Fannie and Freddie, at the urging of Clinton and HUD. They underwrote the bulk of the low-income or sub-prime mortgages that got bundled and sold. The bundling of mortgages and selling them as investment vehicles to generate income for the buyer has been around for decades. GNMAs are still good purchases. The fact is that most corporate charters require that investments purchased have a certain rating or they are not permissable. Part of the reason these CDOs had the rating they did was the implicit guarantee that, while Fannie and Freddie were technically private, they would be backed by the government.
When will you realize that you could win the hearts and minds of most Americans (not to mention their support) by shifting your focus to politicians? The argument I see the most in response to that is "Wall Street OWNS our government!" So, you only blame businesses for that? Politicians who not only accept bribes in the form of PAC contributions and back room deals but who also then write legislation that allows businesses to utilize even more loopholes shouldn't get the lion's share of the blame?
That's backward thinking to me. The FIRST target should be Washington. Business activities are a by-product of legislation, not the other way around.
The only way you will EVER EVER EVER get Wall Street to take action is to start with Washington - and your state representatives. Don't like the ever-rising cost of tuition, which results in massive student loans? That's not Wall Street, that's your state deregulating tuition so that public universities can charge you whatever they want. Continuing along the vein you are now will just continue to be an exercise in futility.
Go ahead and blast me if you want, but you can't genuinely claim to speak for the 99% if you write off what individuals say because you disagree with them.
So please, be specific. Tell me what you are specifically going to do to get these Wall Street Thugs you lambast constantly to do what you want? And what, specifically, do you want them to do?
While "we are our demands" is cute, you won't get widespread American support by hiding behind vague catch phrases. We don't like that from the government, so don't do the same thing they do
goggle searched "I've been watching this website for awhile, trying to see if anything realistic and worthwhile would come forward...something cohesive to throw my hat behind."
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ive-realized-what-a-joke-occupy-wall-street-is/
I've found the thread but the link seems to be redundant by title
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Foccupywallst.org%2Fforum%2Five-realized-what-a-joke-occupy-wall-street-is%2F&ei=442tTt_8FbPTiAKk37T3Cg&usg=AFQjCNExtQucYhr_Ruj52v7I0DRiM-1uZw&sig2=_mcQbArtk_dZKsFztIRlIA
I don't think any one of congress is ready to change their position, much less lose Wall Street's support and cater to new regulations against their favorite citizens (corporations). Next spring they may be, when money won't buy the popular votes they will need. This street protesting is like an air strike before the troops move into the territory. Then dialogue will occur. Go shopping.
Go to themultitude.org if you want to see what this movement is really about. This is now mostly just troll wrestling. It's a diversion but not very productive.
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Once we politically get out from under the confusion that muddles the distinction between people and corporations, real progress could be made to correct differences between the 1% and the 99%.
Since the Supreme Court has chosen to bastardize the Constitution, the only recourse seems to be push for an amendment that clearly states that corporations are NOT people and are not entitled to protections afforded to people in the Bill of Rights.
This one sweeping move could eliminate K-street corporate funded lobbying and would make campaign reform an issue from the past.
It could even get our representatives to be responsive to the electorate again.
What people are opposed to is an international corporatocacy of unelected multibillionaires who control the worlds resources, including labor, with no democratic oversight whatsoever. What are we trying to do about it? How are we going to stop it? We don't know because nobody's ever done it before, but our survival's on the line, so we better figure out a way. There's 7 billion of us now, so I guess we have a chance. Does that answer your question? Unprecidented problems need unprecidented soulutions.
This thing is not what you think. It won't go to DC because it is "Direct Action" (Wiki it) , will not allow government involvement. Read this carefully and do further research. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/david-graeber-the-antileader-of-occupy-wall-street-10262011_page_2.html
Unfortunately, the world's outmoded social, political, and international order is no longer appropriate to these times. These obsolete social institutions are unable to grasp the significance of innovative technology to achieve the greatest good for all people, and to overcome the inequities forced upon so many.
Let me respond to a few of your points. Firstly I do see members of the movement looking to state and local government. This site is devoted almost exclusively to Wall Street issues but many of the other local movements have turned to local political questions.
With respect to the history of the Mortgage Backed Securities I think that you are wrong. True Fannie and Freddie pushed for home ownership, a policy that began before Clinton and continued under Bush. But the securitization process, MERS and the trading that made them into something other than classic loans was done by the banks. It was the banks that lobbied for the repeal of Glass-Steengall, the banks who set up MERS to avoid paying their filing fees, and the banks who began playjng the derivatives game. It was not Fannie and Freddie who came up with this nor was it Clinton. Yes the ratings agencies were involved as well but, like H.W. Bush, Clinton, W, and Obama they were enablers not originators.
And, some of what they did was illegal. MERS, for example existed as a nationwide conspiracy to avoid paying standard filing fees and was accompanied by a nationwide process of fraud or "document reconstruction" to enable their foreclosures. None of this has been prosecuted least of all by the SEC and the FED who under R and D presidents alike have been more interested in serving Wall Street than regulating it.
I am mad at Washington for enabling this. I'm mad at every president from Regan to Obama who has participated in this deregulation and the ensuing bailouts. But I have come to realize that they act not because they believe in this but because they are Wall Street's servants. As such I support the OWS movement because they call attention to this basic fact. No elected official from the major parties will hold Wall Street accountable. Even "outsiders" like Rand Paul mute their tone once in office and Wall Street cash has now become so pervasive that it even tilts the fields of primary elections. If you'll notice, Romney is pulling ahead now not just because of skill but because of his Wall Street backers.
So I don't see business activities as a product of legislation. I see legislation being written to enable the business activities that are improper but desired. The repeal of Glass-Steengall was not done by Clinton just for fun it was done because Wall Street demanded it. The target, in my view, should be the people in charge, not their puppets.
Now as to action. As I have said elsewhere I support ending the two party system and the monopoly on democracy that it brings. I also support equal enforcement of the law. This country spends billions every year cracking down on dope users but cannot seem to find a single dime to spend on cracking down on MERS or the Robo-Signers. Those would be my two principal demands.
Now you tell me. What are you going to do?
You've forgot that most people and organizations have been trying to change things through traditional democratic channels like Washington and local governments to no avail. We literally don't have any other options left to change things after the sellout of Obama The Occupy Movement has been the most successful strategy yet.
Why should we change horses mid stream?
I don't see what I proposed as abandoning the occupy movement. I agree that many people were trying to change things through "traditional" channels which include the two parties. I am arguing that ending the two party system and supporting equal enforcement of the law are strategies that the movement can employ to change things. There is no need to abandon the movement to do that.
Remain vigilant in my contact with my state and local government. No matter who you feel is to blame, SwiftJohn, I see absolutely no reason why a CEO or board member is going to say "Man, you guys are SOOOOO right!"
They aren't going to be writing any legislation, or changing the way they operate, until they are legislatively forced to.
So let me ask again...what is it that OWS is hoping to make CEOs do? What is the expected result to, say, this letter writing barrage?
I honestly can't tell.
Well for my part I am interested in calling attention to the fact that the government responds to them and to the fact that existing laws are not being enforced when they affect Wall Street. I agree with you that legislative effort is needed. However I think it appropriate to make the point that existing legislation is coming not from Washington but from and for Wall Street.
I don't expect them CEOs to say we are right. But then I am not all on board with the letter writing barrage as a tactic anyway. What I expect is that by presenting the problem to the public and gaining support, current polls put OWS as being more popular than both the legislative and executive branches , we can mobilize for the kinds of broad-based legislative changes (and electoral changes) that are necessary.
I share your sentiment. It's too bad to see so much people power being wasted for lack of any specific solutions. There DOES seem to be a LOT of support for getting the money out of politics. See my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-percenter-ready-to-join-if/ and my proposal at http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-the-people-in-order-to-a-proposal/
That's why it's extremely frustrating to see the focus being on writing snarky/angry/hate-filled letters to CEOs who really have absolutely no concern about what someone writes about them on a sign, instead of mobilizing the folks in Zucotti Park to D.C. That seems the most likely venue to have as your base of operations.
It seems there are those, however, who feel it's better to keep fighting a losing battle protesting on Wall Street instead of making real change in D.C.
A Gallup poll released yesterday showed that twice as many Americans are dissatisfied with Congress than they are with Wall Street. Capitalizing on that sentiment while it lasts could really bring the rest of the U.S. into this movement. Continuing to blast Wall Street doesn't stop most of this country from buying their products.
OWS - YOU NEED support from the rest of us in this country. However, it doesn't really seem like you want it.
I agree. While the frustrations are with the moral standards in Wall Street, the solutions will have to come out of Washington. That is where the power of the 99% can be wielded... after all, 99% is the majority of the population and everyone should only get one vote.
I think the first demand to get money out of politics is a start.
I agree, I also think we need to get some econ and finance professors out to the protests to teach a few lectures on their subjects. I a very tired of hearing proposals/protest that really are not viable or do not make sense in the real world.
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Of the above listed four items, only the last is of any relevance. The rest are just mindless babble.