Forum Post: Are We All Insane?
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 11, 2011, 9:29 p.m. EST by hchc
(3297)
from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I love the fight, I love campaigning, I love a challenge.
But I cant help but step back sometimes and wonder if Im spinningmy wheels in quick sand.
Im not saying that simply ignoring what is going on, joining the sheeple, is whats best.
But maybe understanding the forces at work, how history usually plays itself out, and then trying to live my life as best as possible. Maybe that is the smart move?
This stuff has a way of consuming me. Ive probably spent 50 hrs on here the last month and a half.
I understand how you feel. I think it would be a smart move to lose the anarchy and direct democracy and get some real leadership and an effective organizational structure.
hchc seems to me to be a clever fifth columnist, seeking to sap the strength of the movement.
If your (hchc) post is honest, then go home little boy/girl, we don't need you. Get lost.
Inclusive much?
Sorry, I don't follow your comment.
You told me I should get lost. I don't think that sounds very inclusive. I thought this movement was supposed to be about including everybody, the 99% at least.
Actually I was telling hchc to get lost. In part I was responding to your post, but in part, to be honest, I was hitchhiking on your post since it was at the top.
Your post is obviously honest and heartfelt, but I don't feel that about hchc, and I was trying to point that out, to imply that dealing with hchc's comment as being honest was playing his psyop game.
I usually don't pick up hitchhikers. But thats ok. haha
I don't think hchc is a psyop. I don't think we should assume he is being dishonest.
I think he has a legit frustration that I think is a pretty common theme in this movement. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere. No leadership, no goals, no real purpose but creating general disruptions. I'm not sure these are his frustration exactly. Maybe its worth asking him to expand on this thoughts. Especially, why he feels he's "spinning his wheels". Though, I happen to agree, I pretty much feel the same. Which is why I told him "I understand".
There's a fine line that we need to follow. If we can unmask cointelpro psyopers that's great. But if we get too paranoid, they win again by sowing dissension and paranoia. It's hard to get it right. I tend to jump pretty fast, perhaps too fast.
What is cointelpro psyopers anyway?
PSYOP Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures: http://www.disclose.tv/forum/psychological-operations-tactics-techniques-and-procedures-t45829.html (TA is target audience).
COINTELPRO: http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/COINTELPRO/covert_cit.html
See? http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-falls-apart-like-a-cheap-chinese-toy/
They work in groups, unless he changes name.
There is a group that does this, unless he has different names. Watch a similar post come up now.
Slick like mud. They think they're sly. Anybody have a link to COINTELPRO or other psyop routines?
If we sit here and do nothing to stop the S. 1867 bill from becoming a law--then my answer is--yes we are all truly insane.
We are crazy if we allow our constitutional rights to be overriden by a fascist piece of legislation. I say this for all American. WAKE THE HECK UP PEOPLE!!!
Sometimes I think that Cypher in the movie the Matrix is right. Ignorance is bliss.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8cq9y3QagI
Well a little crazy at least. For if we weren't then we would surely go insane. Its OK to rail against the dark.
you can let history "play itself out" on you, or you can make history. which do you want to choose? you can be a "citizen" or you can be a good little "consumer". how do you define a "smart move"? smart as in playing the game and not rocking the boat? what about courage and fortitude and doing the right thing? about living a free life and believing in something? instead of just playing it "smart" yes, we are all insane. the sane ones are the ones that looked at this crazy world and ended it. anyone who is still alive has blinded and deafened themselves to this insane world; they are insane. but, to say that the people that are protesting, railing, fighting against the powers and the forces that make this world insane... that THEY are insane. well, that's just insane.
that's okay. you'll get back to work with a different perspective which will translate into small items of action over time. it's a good thing. you're here and engaged because you know there are some wrongs that need to be addressed.
I just come here for laughs
You got things better to do than try to save human civilization? Take a break, enjoy the hollidays, spend time with your family, rest up. But every person of honor must fight for this last hope to save humanity. Or else just accept that we will discend into a bloody, feudal, dark age. The last dark age went on for a thousand years. Only this time, if it happens again, humanity will see horrors that even make the worst of the plague years pail in comparison.
Yeah, you're insane. You're insane if you don't come here for the information!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
The Revolution starts here! Dig it!
What would you be doing otherwise, accumulating an assorted array of sensations that you will question at life's end? As difficult as it may be, imagine how you will feel in the future as you look back on your life. Do you want your inner voice, your consciousness to remind you that the sum of your existence was watching television for the 10,000th time? Here lies hchc, he was watched television. Read deGrene's comment below where he celebrates his decision to take part in the anti-Vietnam movement: "Yes, it was worth every moment, every headache, every epithet, every lost friend (for they weren't true friends anyway). I was part of something that truly MATTERED!" He's correct, so very correct. Even McNamara finally admitted that the Vietnam War was a mistake. But your involvement is more much than a feeling of self-satisfaction; it is also a fight for others who are frustrated, who are experiencing real pain. You can read their stories here: http://jobsearch.about.com/u/sty/unemployment/unemployedstory/.
Doubting is a manifestation of wisdom at work. Only the ignorant do not doubt, for they have no reason to doubt, they know nothing. Indeed, they are never more certain of the things they least know. As you doubt, ask yourself not how you feel today or tomorrow but well into the future when you will be looking back and summing your worth.
The way I like to see it is in the bigger picture, we're all destined to die and become legend, myth and forgotten; lest we become archeaology's bitch someday. However each one of us who has a child at some point could potentially become an ancestor of the entire human race (just like Charlemagne is supposedly the ancestor of every Westerner.) Our genetic legacy of mere insignificant men could one day part of a central role in humanity and likewise what insignificant men create in their lives; every idea, action, meme etc. could in turn help influence life and the universe on an unimaginable scale.
If you put the tiny effort in, you will be a lasting testament. Whether you are sheeple or shepherd. The question is: which would you rather prefer? A simple life where you move the world like grains of sand eventually move the beach or a great life where you can remake the world like a god would move a mountain; where you would live your life as a great man or woman but at the cost of opening the doors to every potential trial and triumph it and your legacy will eventually throw at you?
So my answer is to merely choose a path and choose it without regrets.
Yea that happens when you do not work. Maybe you should get these protestors together and thinf of a business to start. Then you and the rest of these dead beats would have purpose. Hmmmmmmm I may be on to something. Think about it.
I run two businesses there sweet cakes. What did they say about people who assume?.....
Taking a few seconds out of a work week, relaxing on the dollar chasing, can be more of a positive experience than slamming away 90 hr weeks every fuckin week.
Hi hchc! I'd suggest taking a break from things over the holidays. Give yourself a little time to kind of reboot. Spent some time with family and friends and ask them to not talk about the movement with you during the holidays. Stay away from news programs, Current TV, cspan, etc. If you are to remain in the fight take some time for R&R. We'll be here when you come back and you'll have energy and focus when you do. Take care! ~ Thunderclap
@ hchc ET AL : Take a break to do some reading & research and back yourself up with some facts & figures :
a) http://ni4d.us/ ;
b) http://maxkeiser.com/ ;
c) http://www.nomiprins.com/ ;
d) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ &
e) http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/category/economics/ ;
fiat lux ...
How about a SINGLE challenge -
that 83% of Americans already agree on -
We have to stop DEMANDING that we WANT from THEM.
We must
BUILD GOALS THAT WE WILL ACHIEVE FOR OURSELVES
to sever the wall street leash on Washington
Because of the Supreme Court's decision,
we cannot accomplish anything significant, without FIRST -
Overturn Citizens United !!!
End Corporate Personhood !!!
83% of Americans already agree on it
as stated in the ABC/Washington Post poll
In the the PFAW Poll -
YOUR ACTION ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE
I feel that we should stay with this simple text to overturn CU:
”corporations are not people”
for four simple reasons and one – not so simple:
1
83% of Americans have already opposed CU in the ABC/Washington post poll and the above
IS THEIR POSITION ALREADY.
2
We don’t have to work to convince people on the validity of our position.
3
Simple is almost always better.
4
This simple Amendment is REQUIRED to overturn CU.
And all other electoral reform can be passed through the normal legislative process.
5
OWS and these pages are chock full of ( mostly ) excellent ideas to improve our country.
All of them have strong advocates – and some have strong opposition.
None of them has been “pre-approved” by 83% of Americans !
Pursuing this goal – without additional specifics is exactly what Americans want.
What do we want? Look at that almost endless list of demands – goals - aims.
Tax the rich. End the Fed. Jobs for all, Medicare for all. So easy to state! Can you imagine how hard it would be to formulate a “sales pitch” for any of these to convince your Republican friends to vote for any of them?
83% of Americans have ALREADY “voted” against CU. And 76% of the Rs did too.
All we have to do ask Americans is to pressure their representatives – by letters - emails – petitions.
Wanna take your family on vacation?
Convince the 7 year old and the 10 year old to go to Mt Rushmore.
Then try to convince them to go to Disneyland.
Prioritizing this goal will introduce us to the world – not as a bunch of hippie radical anarchist socialist commie rabblerousers – but as a responsible, mature movement that is fighting for what America wants.
YOUR ACTION ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE
I feel that using the tactics of the NRA, the AARP an the TP – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power to achieve their minority goals - plus the Prohibition Amendment tactics – bringing all sides together - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one task the MAJORITY.
Join the OWS Restore Democracy Working Group at
............. <http://www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy>
Plan details with supporting documentation at: http://bit.ly/vK2pGI
regular meetings 6-8PM @ 60 Wall St – The Attrium @ Wednesdays
YOUR ACTION ----> JOIN US TO PASS THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT
TO END CORPORATE PERSONHOOD
Whereas --
The OWS Declaration of the Occupation of New York City states that
"a democratic government derives its just power from the people,
not from corporations."
and --
the ABC News/Washington Post poll found that 83% of the entire US population
opposes the Supreme Court Citizens United decision,
which affirmed that corporations are people.
and --
by supporting the overturning of corporate personhood,
OWS clearly aligns itself with the vast majority of the American people
who support ending the fundamentally flawed and anti-democratic concept
that corporations are people.
therefore --
We support a constitutional amendment to end corporate personhood.
I don't think it is such a good idea to spend a lot of time on this website. It would be a lot more productive to get as active as you can in an actual occupation or GA.
I do. This site provides a lot of good info into what people are thinking/feeling, to bring up at the GA.
"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see. It's getting hard to be someone but it all works out." - The Beatles - Strawberry Fields Forever.
The buddha would say that you should abandon everything, and concentrate on finding your own path to enlightenment-- Nobody but you can save your soul. Of course, to do that, you might have to abandon everything in the world that's important to you (now) in order to attain purity of heart and mind. I offer no solutions, but I totally, and deeply feel your pain.
My suggestion would be to go find some people in your local world, and see what they're up to. It's what I'm going to have to do, I think. I learn here, I enjoy typing here, I enjoy reading your words, and those of others... But, at some point, I've gotta get off the forum and put this wisdom to a more practical purpose in real life. Don't ask me how that happens, though :)
I think, maybe, printing up a bunch of copies of the 99% declaration, and "dropping them around town" might be a... mentally healthy, productive feeling thing to do. Just a thought, but don't lose the faith, revolutions of ideas take time, and the fire is slowly building, I think/hope.
Great point about getting away from the computer and networking.
Are the sheep (Lamb) in sane? you have to Ask your self. No!
Well, you might perhaps be overdoing the visit to the website a bit, but you could be doing worse things.
What you must understand is that this is not a television sitcom or prime time drama; it's not going to play out and have everything be all right in 30-60 minutes. Think of it in the same way you might think of losing weight: no one gets fat overnight -- it happens gradually over time when a pound here and there are noticed but ignored. Suddenly one wakes up obese and the doctor says, "You have to lose weight or die!" It's going to take a long time to get all that extra fat off and get back to a healthy situation.
It's the same here.
I'll point out one more thing: all along the 1% has been counting on -- indeed, they have been saying openly -- that this is just a fad and those kids will get bored and go home, leaving us to carry on as we always have. The absolute WORST thing we can do, if we truly believe in a better society, is to give up and accept the oppression and the injustice they wish on us to so they can get richer and richer. We may -- no, we certainly will -- have to change tactics, more than once, and to adopt new methods from time to time as the circumstances dictate, but as long as the central idea and the core objctives of the movement stay true and honest (honorable) we can, indeed affect change.
Cases in point: it took 72 years for women to get the vote in this country. It took 100 years for African Americans to be freed from slavery till the time they were given legal equal rights. The movement we're trying to make successful isn't going to happen like the Egyptian Revolution. For one thing, those who we're trying to bring down are not "government" officals and are not subject to public opinion or cooperation.
But before you lose heart, I don't expect us to have to wait seven decades before having an effect. We can do that through our voting power and our buying power. I read the other day -- I wish I could remember who wrote it -- that no capitalist can withstand people who do not spend money. I think that and making the politicians hear us and join us -- just as the Tea Party did -- are our first and best tactics.
I understand. Most of us are lost. That's why the world is such a crappy place. But your search is over. You need to check out OsiXs. This is a real revolution with a plan and a vision by the smartest people on the planet. I've been years looking for the answer for years. Most people have used their entire life times. We have a much better way to fight back now. We don't have to throw temper tantrums anymore. This simply wont work. We have huge problems that require huge solutions. Protesting is for children. We live in a grown up world now. Our problem require thinking and working together.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM
Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org )
I guess the only thing to remember is to be true to yourself. Any one who spends fifty hours here, me being one of those people, really cares about the direction their nation is headed. With that said, maybe it is just wiser to let the world play out in its own way and just worry about you and yours. I'm not there yet, but you do bring up a good notion to ponder.
Am I mad?
YES!
I am mad.
The whole world has gone mad,
driven into madness by the madness that is M.A.D.
YES I am mad.
The ol Zen Dog...
Suit yourself. I'm in this for life.
The most profitable industries in the world (energy, healthcare, finance) have been given billions in government handouts and tax breaks. Meanwhile, they keep raising charges causing hardship for millions. With all those massive handouts, tax breaks, and obscene charges, profits rise to record high levels. Millions in bonuses are paid to the executives. With record high profits, record high dividends are paid. 40% of all dividends in the United States are paid to the richest one percent. All of this causes a gradual concentration of wealth and income. This results in a net loss for the lower majority who find it more and more difficult to cover the record high cost of living, which again, is directly proportional to record high profits for the rich. As more and more people struggle to make ends meet, more and more financial aid becomes necessary. Most of which goes right back to the health care industry through Medicare, Medicaid, and a very expensive prescription drug plan. This increases government spending. This has been happening for 30 years now. During the same time, tax rates have been lowered drastically for the richest one percent. Especially those who profit from investments. These people pay only 15 percent on capital gains income. As even more wealth concentrates, the lower majority find it more difficult to sustain there share of the consumer driven economy. Demand drops as more and more people go broke. Layoffs results. Unemployment rises. This results in less revenue and more government debt.
Massive subsidies and tax breaks for Wall Street, massive tax breaks for the super rich, heavy concentration of wealth, record high charges along with record high profits and record high cost of living, more hardship for the lower majority, more government spending in the form of financial aid to compensate, more concentration of wealth, less demand, layoffs and unemployment. All of this results in slower economy and less tax revenue. At the same time more and more financial aid becomes necessary. It's a horrible downward cycle which gradually pushes the national debt higher and higher.
The other big factors are the wars in the Middle East.
This post is not intended to excuse those who sit on the couch collecting welfare, make no attempt to find work, or squease out kids they can't provide for.
History is written by the victor. They determine what is true. It's our time.
I hope so. Im not sure the rest of the nation is ready yet. I keep telling Tampa that 1% of the pop coming out to attend something would be 22,000 people. The most we've managed is 1,500.
You mention history. One thing I've learned here is how ignorant many people are about history.
The USA is concerned with the immediate present, and thats it.
History- fuck it Upcoming future- fuck it.
oh man it is intense when i think about that, like, if you happened to even have an interest in history in school they were teaching you something other that propaganda
Not saying I want to quit, or that I even could if I wanted to, just wondering what kind of a toll this is taking on my short time on the planet.
All things worthy of doing take from us the time we would spend doing something frivolous were we not dedicated to a better world.
You can work towards personal success while working towards fairness for all. There needs to be a balance.
What do you mean toll? If you enjoy what you are doing then stop worrying about it and do it.
Thoughts?
As someone above mentioned, each of us has to make a decision based upon our needs and desires and values. No one here can give you the answer you seek, but they (we?) can give you encouragement and knowledge. I think one thing you might want to consider is how you will feel a decade from now, or five decades from now. I was part of the anti-Vietnam movement as well as Civil Rights movement. I got my head broken a few times, was called a whole lot of really nasty things, beaten and ostracized by people who had been close friends in school a year before, and even, to some extent alienated by my own family because of my "radical" views of what this country should (could) be. There were a lot of times -- especially when my head was aching and bleeding -- when I asked myself if it was worth it. I look back now and see what we were able to do (albeit still incomplete) and I smile. Yes, it was worth every moment, every headache, every epithet, every lost friend (for they weren't true friends anyway). I was part of something that truly MATTERED! I wasn't a leader, was never famous and didn't want to be, but I was there and I -- along with millions of others -- told the "powers that be" where to stick their fking war and their fking racism and their fking fascism and we made them change things, and, yes, I am very damned proud of being that nameless, faceless warm body in a sea of warm bodies that made it happen.
I would never try to convince anyone to go through that, but I will say, to have made, in some tiny way, a better world is a success and a legacy that I can not imagine being improved upon.
Given that you are one of the most seasoned individuals here, as well as kind and articulate, I would like to remind you that you did agree that the concept of a National General Assembly as proposed in the 99% Declaration had great potential as a watchdog with some teeth, if nothing more. The election of delegates to the NGA is supposed to take place within approximately 100 days. The working group soldiers on with shockingly little visible support.
Given the dynamics of the movements overnight success followed by the mass eviction, it's not too hard to imagine that following the holidays and heading into the depths of winter, the world will leave OWS behind to be lapped up by the Democrats come Spring.
This topic by hchc reflects a reality. The whole world was excited by the movement and we quietly inside feel a touch of desperation as the global situation appears to be decimated every year. It surely is connected to the trauma of 9/11. OWS We Are The 99% gave us a glimmer of hope but it seems to be slipping into an endless winter night.
Please join me in demanding the NYCGA publicly endorse the 99% Declaration. It has to come from there for reasons I won't go into here. I think going in to the holidays, such an announcement would re generate the excitement, December 17th being the obvious day for such an announcement. Done properly the pending announcement would have the worlds media "shivering with anticipation".
Given that there is little or zero downside risk to proceeding with a 'Third Continental Congress' and that it has the potential to unify the movement, The march to Philadelphia could rescue OWS from the footnotes of history.
Yay or Nay?
I just went to the site and posted my wish that this happen. Hopefully it will. Thanks again.
First of all, thank you for your kind words. I hope I can live up to them in the future.
Certainly I agree with you taht there is the danger of the movement "slipping into an endless night of winter" and of it becoming a short-lived fashion. I have said since my first day here that I think the movement needs good, strong, focused leadership with clearly stated goals.
I will be glad to urge the NYCGA to endorse the Declaration. What is the best way to do it? Via email through their website?
Thanks again. I hope we can make this work.
i can relate but if we want it in our lifetimes we gotta be the change we want to see as ghandi said
To answer your initial post question; Are We All Insane? The answer is yes.
We were all insane during the GW Bush years. Now we are super sane, just like The Joker.
We should all be banded together in core disagreements with our government. The problem with OWS is, there are so many different factions of the group that you could never back it. There are some core arguments that I think you could get all Americans behind. Untill that happens OWS will remain .01% of the 99% they claim to represent.
You aren't insane just poorly served by the educational system.
How so?
I don't think so. Where did you spend your time on the internet before? The conversations can be interesting and you do learn some things. However, spending too much time on the internet doing anything makes me slightly disgusted with myself.
As sheep over time we will stop the whinning and get used to the idea we are slaves but as soon as the masses begin to starve there will be a war for sure.
When sheep begin to starve they eventually die just like every other living animal on this planet.
No, that sounds about right. I wouldn't worry about what these people anymore. The hard winter will hit and they will disperse. There may be an outcropping in spring, but it would be mild, summer will drive them mad again (maybe, prolly not) and nothing will still get done. The reason why is because they don't have any particular targets outside of companies, where the one person, who may or may not be there(he could be working or something), who won't hear them anyway. Their "99%" has to deal with a bunch of loud idiots, and messing up their lunch. Now someone will respond and call me a republican or stupid, uninformed, a 'bot, blah, blah, blah, but if you ask them hard, direct questions about who/what in particular they are after, they can't answer or sidestep glaring facts and bring up the Black movement(not even close), the Womens movement(nope), various wars(sorry, but no), or some other event that happened at some other time. If you want a chance at this imaginary "1%"(fake figure), then work your way up there like most of them had to.