Forum Post: Are Public School Teachers Really Wealthy? If You Look At Some Of These Salaries You Might Reconsider.
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 10, 2011, 8:12 p.m. EST by MikeInOhio
(13)
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I don’t know how you folks define wealth, and I don’t know what you consider to be an “excessive” income. I live in Ohio and I make about $44,000 per year. I have a wife and 3 children, and we live fairly comfortably. Should I be demanding more money because I have two Masters Degrees and a family? It seems to me you folks are mainly interested in a guaranteed standard of living, rather than a living wage.
Ever been to Cleveland? It’s a great City, in my opinion, but has one of the worst public school systems in the nation. The system has averaged a 45% graduation rate the past 5 years (ensuring that at least 55% of students go on to vote for Democrats and entitlements).
125 teachers and administrator earn over $90,000 at Cleveland Public. The combined pension liabilities for these 125 people is over $200,000,000 (I have no pension or retirement savings). Bear in mind that the teachers work 178 days a year, not the 260+ most of us work
Let’s look at another example, Columbus Public. It’s a slightly better system, but it still churns out Democrats in droves. 78% graduation, I believe.
233 teachers and admins with salaries in excess of $90,000, with combined pension liabilities nearing ½ Billion dollars.
Given the fact that the average house in Cleveland sells for about $130,000 it seems like teachers are living quite well. Shouldn’t they be asked to give up a part of their salaries and benefits? Maybe their pension funds should be looted to finance your “living wages”. How about all public employee pension funds?
http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/teacher-salary. All data comes from the State of Ohio.
I think a teacher should be paid exactly what they are worth and that is determined buy ability, not a union contract. Good teachers should be rewarded and paid handsomely and bad teachers should be forced to find another profession. I also see no reason that they shouldn't pay into their pensions and healthcare.
Ausgezeichnet, mein Herr. Yes, I would pay good teachers handsomely too. There are few people who are more valuable to society.
I was a member of the NEA and the MEA (Michigan). The name of the game with public sector unions is to always cry poormouth in order to dupe and bilk the taxpayers. If the public had any idea how high their pay is, how lavish the benefits are, and how rich the pension plans are, they would flip out.
The poor and the elderly are loosing their homes because they can't pay their property taxes. Those property taxes support teachers. This is WRONG and immoral. We get screwed at the federal level with bailouts for banksters and we get screwed supporting these public employee bloodsuckers.
I'm with you. There are too many tax dollars being sucked into an educational system controlled by unions. The damn thing should be controlled by teachers.
It should be controlled by the people paying the bills - taxpayers. I agree that the unions suck up MUCH money.
Well, at least there are 2 of us.
Divide and conquer - that is the 1% tactic. Teachers are part of the 99% - if they make more and have great benefits, good for them. We should all have the same. Don't tear them down - build us all up!
This kernel of thought is captured in my song - No, It's Not OK (Occupy Wall Street Song)
free mp3 download at http://www.reverbnation.com/vegetarianblues
Lyrics:
You work all your life just to make ends meet Forget about a pension and Social Security You'll be working until you're eighty - that's downward mobility
No, it's not OK There's a better way Main Street's brighter day Let's start it here on Wall Street
The game is stacked in the 1%'s favor And we the 99 are not allowed at the table Well the GDP says that there is wealth being created But it floats to the top away from those who generate it
No, it's not OK There's a better way Main Street's brighter day Let's start it here on Wall Street
They know that to conquer they must first divide So they stoke up discontentment with those who are unionized Sure they have nice pensions and sane working hours too But instead of tearing them down why not build up me and you? Because you deserve the same things for your labor And the 99% are your friends and neighbors
No, it's not OK There's a better way Main Street's brighter day Let's start it here on Wall Street
We don't want a handout we just want what we've earned And a fair shake for those who have been so badly burned Holding criminals responsible: what could be more mainstream? It's time to stop the theft of the American Dream
Get a job, Blake
The oligarchs include public employee unions....
They are! In fact, I would put them at the front of the line.
Not wealthy. And not effective. 25.1% drop out of high school. Our public schools are a disaster.
Pay teachers like lawyers, get better talent and demand better results.
Ab-so-lute-ly!
In New York city the top salary, regardless of whether you teach high school or kindergarden and regardless of performance, for a public school teacher is approximately $104,000. In 2009, approximately 45% of NY city public school teachers made over $75,000 base salary and approximately 30% made over $80,000. This does not include benefits and overtime. Teachers can retire at 55 with a state and city tax free pension (private pensions are taxable in New York but public sector workers’ pensions are not) based on the qverage of their top 3 years earnings, including per session pay (teachers version of overtime).
Thank you for the information- that is great stuff! How many days a year do they work?
Daily Schedule 8:30 AM to 3:40 PM
Work year is the school year –Approximately September 6 to June 27 with two days befor the school year and two days after
http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/D7229185-F909-4FF3-AF7F-B58348186DA0/0/20112012SchoolYearCalendarRev_9611.pdf
Thanks for that link, bronx. I was looking for the NYC school schedule last week and couldn't find it. It's similar to ours.
Income may be a greater predictor of poor student outcomes than teacher quality.
http://llilearningsite.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/lli-all-staff-june-activity
http://www.texastribune.org/texas-education/public-education/is-poverty-the-key-factor-in-student-outcomes/
I agree, incomes are a better predictor. Every teacher in the world knows it.
Thanks for the link!
Your welcome! That's income of the student's family not the teacher though. :)
Yes. I understand. Thanks again!
Videos on changing the current education paradigm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvaqt9ZQ-Eo&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM95HHI4gLk
Free online education resources
http://www.khanacademy.org/
http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm
http://oedb.org/library/beginning-online-learning/200-free-online-classes-to-learn-anything
http://oyc.yale.edu/
http://www.nasonline.org/
http://www.coursehero.org/
Unfortunately collaborative types of learning won't be applied as long as the current economic system remains.
What does that mean?
It means that education will continue to focus on preparing students by making them great test takers. Students will be educated and encouraged to learn topics based on the job market. Collaboration will be discouraged in favor of competition. Those that are unable to compete will be left behind in many cases or simply labeled "special" or a victim of ADHD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD17aDBVhX8
If we wish to teach future generations to truly want to solve core problems the economic system must change so schools aren't forced to mass produce workers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBG-YaM1Ucc
http://thevenusproject.com/
Oh, thank you. I agree with everything you said. I'll look at the links,
Unless you make over $1 million a year you are not rich.
Thank you for clearing that up. If you make $998,000 you don't get killed?
The Buckeye Institute is a conservative think tank. They are not a non-partisan organization.....and if you read beyond your prejudices, you would know that that information is, as most would assume, misleading. Your bigoted attacks only further demonstrate your intellectual inadequacies.
While nothing to be proud of, the graduation rates for Cleveland over the last five years from '07-'08 back were above 50% and were significantly higher than the five years before that.
http://blog.cleveland.com/pdgraphics_impact/2009/05/22cgDROPOUT.pdf
Those who make $90,000 or more a year are typically superintendents. Teachers are closer to $50,000 or so.
http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=390&ContentID=11997&Content=93812
Look, the data comes from the State. I have four friends who are in the database and they don't dispute the figures. You can hide your head in the sand and pretend it is all a conservative conspiracy, but I don't see the point. Go to the State of Ohio website and see for yourself.
I'm happy to hear they have temporarily increased graduation rates to 50%. I guess it's time to have a party.
Prejudices? Please! I have the facts on my side.
They are NOT facts to these people if it contradicts their inane arguments in any way whatsoever. ANY source used to dispute what they have ingrained in their heads is considered right wing propaganda. I gave up... really hard to fight STUPID
I'm with you, but I refuse to give up. If you present enough facts that support your position, eventually people will see the light (I hope).
I was hoping that a couple weeks ago but.... I even put up tax info from 4 sources that mirrored the CBO info also included... they were all shunned. It's hopeless I am afraid and that's what scares me. Being in education, this must be truly frustrating for you...
It is frustrating, but the way I see it we are involved in a war for the minds of young people. The country is so evenly split that it only takes convincing a few people to make a real difference. I refuse to give up.
good for you... this is a tough crowd to crack... good luck
One. Way to show your partisanship, you are well versed in the propaganda game.
Two. Teachers deal with some serious shit! Especially inner city teachers! Those kids bring guns and knives to school. They have extensive education on the subject and teach the children that are our future. Not to mention the fact that they work late into the night grading paperwork. During the summer they are also planning and making up class dictations for the coming semester. So yeah, they make what they deserve (If they are a decent teacher) Am I jealous? No, when I graduate with my MA I will be making an average of $140,000 a year to start. You make what you make because you chose that job.
PLUS, $90,000 isn't that much. It is more than being a McDonalds manager. But for a MA degree, not that much. ALSO, the 1%'s income is statistically accepted as starting aroung $250,000 a year.
Aha! I chose the job, but you reap the rewards.
You are worked to death, apparently (180 days a year), while I toil away 250-300 days a year. I have an MA in Finance. I want part of your paycheck.
What are you talking about?
I assume by "you" you mean teachers. If you like what they have, go be a finance professor.
Anyone with a MA can be a teacher. But it is harder than you think, and I bet you are too lazy to do such an unstable job.
Obviously not that lazy, I seem to have the best posts on this site for 5 days running. Where are your posts?
Oh yes, when the income is yours, you'll fight to the death for it. When it is a "millionaires", you'll gladly take it.
Actually, my posts had over 500 comments and has been one of the top posts all week.
And I don't want the money from anyone. Not even millionaires. I want them to keep their money, and keep it far away from politics. I also want them to make their money in ethical ways.
That is all I want.
The vast majority of people who make large sums of money do it in an honest way. You paint a broad brush when you accuse the wealthy of greed and fraud.
I am not accusing the majority. I am accusing the minority. In fact I even made a thread about changing our motto to the 99.9%
You know, that is actually a GREAT idea! I have no problem with placing the blame on real scoundrels.
The debate isn't centered around CEO salary that is their right to make a higher wage. But, which the debate is why their political influence is proportional to their wallet when they should have equal influence as the average Joe.
I agree completely. Equality is the name of the game.
As much as I am for some unionization (do you want a return to the 1800s factory conditions of Great Britain? At the very least - what if you get an arm cut off by a machinery, because your employer forced you to work under hazardous conditions and your employer is not held responsible for it?), it's the unionized teachers and the low bar for hiring that really fucked our kids.
Not to mention biased education that intentionally breeds people to be stupid drones rather than actual thinkers, movers and creators.
We have worker's comp. My best friend is a workers' comp attorney. The system isn't perfect but at least it works reasonably well.
The school system situation is dire, I agree.
Forget the salaries. Public school teachers should be paid twice as much, but based on merit, not on seniority. Right now, they are failing our children, which is why our country is sucking wind on Science and Math scores.
END THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION!!!!
Rated 18th out of 19 industrialized countries. Our math and science scores are pathetic.
This is a red herring. The real problem is that all of the middle class wealth has been redistributed into the hands of the few. You complain about teacher salaries being the problem when all of the studies show that middle class salaries have stagnated for 30 years and executive salaries have ballooned 256% in the last 30 years.
The top 10% now controls 70% of the entire nation's wealth and the bottom 50% control 2%. Middle class wages were replaced with easy loans and credit while the corporate profits were all paid out to the executives at the top and shareholders and the reason why? Paying out all of the corporate profits at the top directly correlates to the more than 30 years of tax cuts for the wealthy.
In 1950, the highest marginal tax rate was 90% if you made more than $2 million in today's dollars. In the 1970's it dropped to 70%, in the 1980's it dropped to 49%, in the 1990's it dropped to 39%, and in the 2000's it dropped to 36%. So as the tax disincentive against paying all profits to the few at the top was eliminated and the middle class saw no wage increases for 30 years.
Don't get caught up in the billionaire propaganda that the teachers are the one's you should be angry at. They are trying to divide us and divert attention from the real problem of wealth redistribution that has gone on for 30 years.
You can't replace a living wage with easy credit for too long. There is only so much debt the middle class can take on as more and more of the nation's wealth is accumulated into the hands of the few.
I appreciate your answer, as I have heard it many times before. I just don't think that being obsessed with CEO salaries does any good. Companies freely enter into employment contacts with these people. If shareholders agree to it, why is it any business of ours. If Walmart wants to pay someone $1 trillion per year, I could care less. If they think it is worth it, then let them.
I'm not saying be angry at teachers; I'm saying look at how the system rewards teachers. Great teachers don't make more, it's the teachers who have been in the system the longest who makes the most. Have you ever noticed a correlation between age and teaching skill? Sure, there are great teachers who are old, and their are great teachers who are young.
They (CEO's and the elite) have stolen the wages of the many for the luxuries of the few. Labor is at its lowest share of profits in history. Restructuring unions is necessary as much as restructuring our government. That doesn't make them unnecessary or useless.
I agree about restructuring government, but unions are really are useless. They don't serve a purpose anymore except for extortion.
The CEO/Elite argument is ridiculous. You have a handful of bad people. Why doesn't Obama's AG, Eric Holder, prosecute these miscreants?
Mike: I think that you are missing the point. CEO's are getting paid these outlandish salaries not because they deserve it or get results, it is because other executives sit on their boards, they can influence their boards, and the executives can all reward each other with these salaries for many time no or little results and get away with it. See this article as an example. The executive pay system is broken.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/01/business/lets-stop-rewarding-failed-ceos-common-sense.html?_r=1&ref=executivepay
htmlhttp://money.cnn.com/2007/01/03/news/companies/home_depot/index.htmhttp://www.pay-without-performance.com
The problem has become the same as it was before unions and the marginal tax disincentive. How do you get the few people at the top, who make the wage and pay decisions, to share the corporate profits with their workers? When there is no employee bargaining power or marginal tax, greed reigns.
If the Walmart CEO makes $1 Trillion a year, that means there is less profit pie to treat their workers well. If Walmart had a tax disincentive against paying out all of the profits to the executive at the top like in the 1950's, then there would be more money to pay the workers better, to pay more in healthcare, and to pay more in retirement. Let's say the Walmart CEO made $20 million rather than $84 million, that $60 million a year could go a long way in rebuilding the middle class that has become dependent on easy credit and loans in place of wages. In fact, just $5 million dollars pays the salaries of 25 Cleveland police officers for 3 years! Do you see why it makes a difference?
There is no way one person could even spend $84 million a year in a salary. That is disgusting and excessive. There was not this difference in salaries in the best years of America: THE RATIO OF AVERAGE CEO COMPENSATION AND WORKER PAY IN THE US 1965-2005 2005 - 262:1 (Av. CEO-$10,982,000/Av. Worker- $41,861) 2004 - 238:1 2003 - 181:1 2002 - 143:1 2000 - 300:1 1989 - 71:1 1978 - 35:1 1965 - 24:1 Source: Mercer Survey of 350 large industrial and service firms conducted for the Wall Street Journal as reported by Mishel, Bernstein, Allegretto
http://cornellhrreview.org/2009/12/21/the-executive-pay-drama-from-comedy-to-tragedy/ http://abcnews.go.com/Business/walmart-ceo-pay-hour-workers-year/story?id=11067470
http://www.svsu.edu/emplibrary/Whelton%20article.pdf
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/econ/sempapers/Frydman1.pdf
http://www.americanprogress.org/kf/ceo_pay_web_final.pdf http://www.businessweek.com/managing/content/nov2008/ca2008114_493532.htm
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/311/executive-pay.html
I agree with Mike.
We have been rewarding incompetence in both Wall Street and the public sector alike.
Thank you, wombat. I haven't heard much agreement the past few days.
You're welcome.
I may be mostly "socialist" and we may disagree on other issues, but I'm only "socialist" up to a certain point. The kids in the charter schools in the ghettos have better test scores than the "rich kids" with a public education. I've had good and bad teachers alike and frankly, if a teacher is going to post all the answers to a test or let us bring notes to exams (notes = copy everything from the textbooks that you can and use your notecard during the exam) and sometimes even textbooks, then there is a serious problem. Not all teachers did this, but many of the incompetent ones did.
However I'm not calling for a defunding of public education, I am merely asking for better management and greater supervision and quality inspection. But if a teacher or administrator or whoever constantly shows that they are incompetent, maybe we can try to fit them in another job.
And I'm a conservative who isn't sold on charter schools. The charters here in Ohio have a mixed record. It seems like one out of every two has some problem with management fraud. If these issues were easy to solve, they would have been solved long ago. We all agree on quality education.
Well it's still better than public education's record. Management fraud should be either corrected or the school should be blacklisted I agree.
And amen to quality!
combined salary and pensions make those cleveland teachers part of the 1%
funny
I'm not sure it does, but it's something to think about. Tenure is a horrible system, in my opinion.
Teachers have it pretty good these days only relative to the collapsed private sector. Why? because you can't ship their jobs overseas and they have great Unions. So instead, the schools are all heading toward being privatized. Then teachers will be paid min. wage work 365 days a yr. while the Corps. that buy the schools will pay their CEOS and other top Execs. huge salaries and bonuses. Taxes will go up not down as the schools will now have to make a profit every qtr. so shareholder value will increase. Either way the taxpayer gets whacked.
No they won't. The best school systems compete for the best teachers. People who value education will agree to pay higher salaries to the best teachers.
Your fellow workers--especially the people educating your children--are not your enemy. "Excessive" income is millions of dollars per year. Paying some of the people who educate our children $90,000 in income is a good deal. We want people who work for a living, especially doing important things, to be paid well.
That is what this movement is about.
I agree, provided they are good teachers. Unfortunately the current system doesn't allow a fair evaluation of teacher performance.
As I said a few minutes ago to another poster, I can't think of any one professional that is more important to our future. We need great teachers, but we also need to get rid of the dead weight.
Why are you so hostile? We want a living wage for all, and obviously your salary won't need to be derailed to fund them. Many of us mainly want to opportunity to finish school, get a decent job, be able to eat and support a family, and be able to pay off our loans.
How is wanting what your basics standard of living is absurd?
I'm not hostile, I'm just proposing a questions. I am all for paying good teachers good salaries. I just have a problem with a system based upon tenure and nonperformance.
You can type in any college or uni here but I entered the University of way too high but if you really want to get pissed off, look at this:
http://www.collegiatetimes.com/databases/salaries/university-of-michigan-ann-arbor
Administrators make too much money and too much money gets wasted at the "board" and state level, at least in my state.
Having said that, when is the last time you went to a town council meeting or a school board meeting in your town?
Those are state/local issues not Federal. Are you involved in your local govt?
The last time I wrote the superintendent-very clearly and concisely expressing my viewpoint on a particular math curriculum, I was answered by his secretary or admin assistant who gave a very snide answer to the point of "You don't know what you are talking about because you haven't had time in the classroom/working with this curriculum." That would be in the Northshore School District in Washington State for reference. What they assumed was contrary to truth as 3 days a week I was in the classroom for several hours a day, plus every night I worked with my (disabled) son on math, etc. etc.
For the people has long lost any semblance of appropriateness.
Occupy the Boards of Ed!
Yes, I am involved. I would really like to see the prevailing wage provision lifted for school construction projects. I have to see 20-30% extra costs for a school project because you have to use unions. I would prefer this money spent in the classroom.
School construction projects? I hope you are talking about necessary to the health and safety of our kids projects, right?
Oh yes. I am saying we could reduce the cost of any school project by removing the prevailing wage provision. $2 million on a new $10 million school would go a long way to improving education.
Teachers aren't the problem in America. Scapegoating them for having decent jobs with a good Union goes nowhere. The problem is everyone else is getting fired and the tax base is collapsing, so we cannot afford these teacher salaries anymore. So they are just another group of the victims of greed on Wall.st. Teachers didn't collapse the system 3 yrs. ago and profit while doing it.
No, but teachers' unions, and prevailing wage laws, have caused everyone's property taxes to skyrocket. There is only so much money you can pull out of the taxpayers to fund education.
Very true point. Unfortunately high property tax is driving many elderly out of their homes. Cut superintendent salaries and benefits.
There is only so much money to go around. I would rather see money spent on the elderly.
They're the only cohort NOT falling into poverty right now because of Social Security and Medicaid. Programs, by the way, that we are paying for that will likely be non-existent for us when the time comes, if things continue down the same course as the past four decades.
The middle class was served a dish of rotten meat. You know when TEACHERS are considered over paid, there is a problem. The benefits have become an issue because the Boomers are retiring. Monies in the pension systems were mismanaged and misused. Benefits were negotiated in lieu of pay. Do away with the pensions and pay teachers a better wage throughout their career. What, in your opinion, would be a reasonable level of compensation for their loss in benefits? In my state, it takes 22 years to earn 77,000, and pension payments are calculated to 48% of your last 5 years. I hardly call that high on the hog.
sassy, I agree with everything you said. I'm all for GREAT teachers earning $100,000. Yes, it is sad when people are attacking teachers' salaries, but when they are too high they need to be attacked. That's why I brought it up. I vale education more than most, and would gladly pay more in taxes if I felt the money was well spent.
Thanks for your opinion
Tenure is another issue altogether-which would be addressed directly towards the Unions.
I think it is the biggest problem. You simply can't ignore the cost that it adds to the equation.
I'm not interested in the people who are earning average wages-but in the decrepit misuse of those in supervisory and elected positions who are supposed to be civil servants and earn 100k more than average people, and 20-50k more than other supervisory positions.
I agree.
Be specific about which teachers are doing their jobs and which are not. The question is tenure. How many administrators are too many?? and then what are the kids like when they come in the classroom? Are they fed? clothed? parented? if these issues aren't happening, tests scores will not go up. I do not make a 90,000 dollar pay check and I have been teaching for 32 years. My kids score very well on tests but I work with parents closely so this can happen. I work twelve hour days four days a week and on Friday I work eight to ten hours. By the time June 15th comes around I am ready to be on vacation. I am back in the classroom by August 15th. My benefits do not cover my children. I pay for their healthcare myself out of my pocket. Shouldn't the people educating our children be treated with a little respect? We do work hard. We do love what we do. There are some who do not - just as there are some in every profession who shouldn't be there. I personally don't know anyone who makes $90,000 as a teacher. I must teach in the wrong state.
Just ignore the ppl here who are deliberately poking the bear. I have many teachers in my family-yet am forced to home-school my disabled son due to some not so good ones out there-therefore I remain committed to the idea that teachers should like other middle-class Americans, receive according to a just wage, which I believe is along the lines of the average American's salary.
Teacher's unions need to differentiate and separate from those in supervisory positions and others so when budget cuts happen, it comes from the top and not the bottom. My personal opinion only.
The State of Ohio has been fighting with the unions to implement a system of grading teachers. I have quite a few friends who are teachers. They all work in excellent school districts and are at the top of their profession. Even THEY are scared of being evaluated. I keep telling them that they will be the ones who benefit from performance evaluation.
If, and only if - it's fair.
When I first entered the workforce, I expected some level of reasonable fairness. Sometimes I found it, but when I didn't, it make my profession a nightmare.
I think your teacher friends are right, and you appear too trusting.
It's no secret in my kids' school who are the best teachers.
I think Ohio is trying to come up with system that is reasonably fair, but it doesn't involve as much teacher/teacher review as I would prefer. I would think that the teachers could handle it by themselves, but I have never taught outside of a university environment. Please tell me what you think.
What you say about teacher/teacher review makes sense, but it is not what management will want and will impose.
I fought a manager who liked to physically intimidate the people he supervised. Of course, butter wouldn't melt in his mouth when he was with those above him. He's just one example of someone who would happily give a bad review to someone who wasn't docile enough. I saw the worst employee in a professional bargaining unit get promoted to management. She was a laughing stock among her peers, and didn't work over half the time. But she could sound really good, and was skilled at ego-stroking. I could give more examples from real life experience.
So I still think your teacher friends are right to fear a "grading" system.
Yes, I hear quite a bit of this sort of thing from my teacher friends. There will always be petty arguments between people, but a system must be found to evaluate performance. It's the same thing with the administrators.
I think you are right to assume that management will fight it, but I also think most people would rather listen to a teacher than an administrator or union rep. I know I do when I attend School Board meetings
What you want opens up another problem, which I've seen a lot. Fire the long-time worker, no matter how good the person might be, to hire someone cheaper. There is a lot of financial incentive for a manager to do this.
It happened to my dad long ago; my brother (now 61 and an internationally known expert in his field) just fought of an attempt to do it by his boss; another excellent employee we know in retail was fired after many years of top notch evaluations.
Anyway, it is clear that we are unlikely to convince each other, but thank you for listening. Although I disagree with you, I appreciate that you are working to bring about something you think is constructive.
Yes, it does pose other problems. This was a common problem in the 1970's as the babyboomers entered the workforce. I wish I had an answer, but I do not.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments, cmt. Hopefully this exercise will yield some benefits.
Absolutely, but we all know there are many teachers who do not perform. Obviously you are one of the good teachers. It sounds like you work your butt off.
The tenure system simply does not make sense. I have no problem with great teachers making over $100K per year.
I wish I could believe people when they say that. You can imagine my disappointment when, after investing over $1200.00 and significant time and effort, I learned that National Board Certification bonuses were being cut significantly by the federal government, and completely by the state. I'm looking forward to my results next month. As hard as I work, I have no worries that I will receive the accreditation reflective of my professionalism; however, it will come with such a salty after-taste. My state also wants to cut funding to pay incentives for holding an advanced degree. The irony there? My student loan payment amounts to my monthly incentive for having attained the degree. In what way are we as a society truly attempting to pay for performance? I've seen cuts that directly affect students for the last four years. The only thing we ever have unlimited money for is standardized testing. My students are learning out of books that were printed before they were born. The money isn't making it to the teachers, but more important, it's not reaching the kids. You'd be surprised the miracles, love, passion, inspiration and hope in the public system. As with all professions, there are a handful of those that fail to represent the craft well. Tenure is under attack, and I agree it shouldn't be a brick wall; however, older teachers often have great ideas, wisdom and knowledge to pass on to the new. Teaching truly is a craft. You WANT experienced teachers. Almost 70% of teachers leave the profession within their first five years, and it's not always because of the pay. It is often because they can't deal with the job. You should mentor at a school. It might be an eye opening experience for you.
Wow, thanks sassy. That is the best teacher/education message I have received since I have been posting here. The type of person who spends their time arguing with faceless people on the internet is the type of person who is going to go the extra mile for my child. You give a damn; I know you are good.
I'm not busting on teachers here. I'm busting on the unions. I just returned from a birthday dinner with several of my teacher friends and we discussed this whole issue. I will happily pass a school levy to pay great teachers $120,000 per year, but I won't vote for mediocrity. The unions don't allow the best teachers to make what they are worth, they prefer to represent the bottom 3rd at the expense.
Typical deflection. Oligarchs are walking away with the entire wealth of this nation, and they have us attacking each other.. and teachers. Do some math. How many teachers are there in America, and how much would you cut from their salaries? Post back your calculations and we'll see how much we could save by shifting our focus from Wall St. to the greedy teachers.
Well, teachers (public sector) may be said to be a privileged class as well. They are paid through compulsory taxation; yet those who pay the bill (the taxpayers) are not permitted at the negotiating table through referendum or voter ratification. These contracts are negotiated solely with elected officials who may be “bought” by the union.
Well, there are approximately 4 million teachers in America. Take $10,000 right off the top and you are talking about $40 billion. Make them contribute more to their pensions and you have another $20 billion. Make them contribute a little more to their health care and you have another $10 billion. Get rid of duplicate administrators and you save another $60 billion. I can keep going, if you like.
And where would that get us? Less middle income families, less taxes paid by those bearing the brunt of it, that would mean you and I again paying more in taxes. Average salary for average labor. Nothing wrong with that.
By your logic, why doesn't the Fed just print money and give everyone a check for 1 billion dollars.
What I meant by average salary for average labor was in no way a socialistic leaning. I'll clarify for you - Americans make an average of $30-50k/year- I believe this is fair and adequate pay for teachers as well.
I think good teachers should make a little more, and great teachers a lot more.
I don't think good teachers or great teachers should make more (than $35-55k)-it is above the average American's salary and therefore our ability to pay. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip.
lol, with that thinking, then would bad teachers make less? Now that I'm really down for-they give all teachers a bad rep.
You are serious, aren't you?
So that would include the teachers that make $35k/year, right? Median being <$45k.. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary
Anyway, $60B. You know we're talking trillions of wealth either destroyed completely or pocketed and removed from the economy by the oligarchs, right?
No, what I am saying is that we have a system based on time-served, not quality of education.
Ok, i coulda shortened those, but whatevers :P
http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/School-Superintendent-Salary-Details-Cincinnati-OH.aspx?hdcbxbonuse=off&isshowpiechart=false&isshowjobchart=true&isshowsalarydetailcharts=false&isshownextsteps=false&isshowcompanyfct=false&isshowaboutyou=false
vs.
http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/School-Superintendent-Salary-Details-Cincinnati-OH.aspx?&hdcbxbonuse=on&isshowpiechart=false&isshowjobchart=false&isshowsalarydetailcharts=true&isshownextsteps=true&isshowcompanyfct=true&isshowaboutyou=true
Wow! Thanks.
I would vote for lowering superintendents salaries.
Same here. There is no doubt that many school systems are stuffed full of high paid political jobs.
So would I. Administrators take too much of the pie, as far as I am concerned.
No kidding, and that is just 1 area, 1 branch of government. Imagine the rest.