Forum Post: Anyone who says the USA is NOT a capitalist country is completely delusional
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 10, 2011, 9:16 a.m. EST by LearnSomeHistory
(58)
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Only crazy people, only completely delusional people, can say that the USA is "not a capitalist" country, or say that the USA is a "socialist" country.
The USA is one of the MOST CAPITALIST COUNTRIES in the world.
People who say that the USA is not a capitalist country doen't know what capitalism is. Those people think that capitalism is "libertarianism", the "pure" system that the libertarians advocate for on their textbooks.
People need to learn some history, people need to know the history of capitalism, and how this system developed. Capitalism passed through many fases during its history, and had many different faces. Sometimes, capitalism had more "government intervention", sometimes capitalism had less "government intervention", but it never stopped to be capitalism.
Another big delusion is talk about a kind of "real capitalism", that is suppose to have existed somewhere in the past, that was a "perfect system", "without government intervention", and believe that those were "good old times".
Today, all countries in the world have capitalist economies, including China. Even the countries with social-democratic systems in Scandinavia have a capitalist economy, although it's a more regulated capitalist economy. And the USA is one of the most capitalist countries in the world, and is a country that have one of the lowest levels of "government intervention" in this planet.
Wake up, and stop listening to the crap "libertarian" propaganda.
It's a capitalist country for us 99%, but a socialist system for wall street, because we bail them out when they screw up.
Exactly. The current system is socialism for the rich. Keeping profits and passing losses onto the taxpayer...
How can one have a capitalist system when the money supply itself is not a market system?
So, do you think capitalism only exists where there is no Central Bank, and no central currency? Hmmm... England was never a capitalist country?
Exactly. Even Greenspan has stated that to the extend that the Fed is governing the amount of money in the system, it is NOT a free market: http://youtu.be/ozD8ojH5PJU (video is only 22 sec.). And that's why it is so painstakingly frustrating that people keep portraying him as a free market champion. He was the president of one of the largest ANTI-free market institutions in the world, FCOL!!
With regard to money: In a free market there would be competing currencies, not one fiat currency.
You are completely crazy. In fact, you all, the libertarians, are lunatics. England is the birthplace of capitalism. England, the land of Adam Smith, David Ricardo, James Watt, the steam engine and the Industrial Revolution, is the most genuine capitalist country in the world. Capitalism was born there. And when capitalism was born there, there was just one currency, the currency issued by the Bank of England. Your claims that "real capitalism only exists with competing currencies" is pure lunacy.
Capitalism has got nothing to do with history. It's really tiresome when people try to tell what capitalism is trough events. Is it that hard to grasp? Free market capitalism is a philosophy. It is nothing more then the consistent application of the non-aggression principle. Government, by definition, is force, which means fiat currency and central banking is force and no part of capitalism whatsoever.
Look, I don't care about the labels. I hate the current system as much as you do. You can call it capitalism if you like (I call it corporatism), it doesn't matter. But the current system has got nothing to do with true freedom (which is what I'm advocating).
Unfortunately, the real world is not made of philosophy. In the real world, History is what matters, and the lessons we learn from History.
First: what I am saying is that capitalism isn't defined by history. It IS a philosophy. And yes, it would be nice to test it in reality, but then you have to measure it against HOW it is defined. Glimpses of free market capitalism can be found in reality, and when we do, it clearly is superior to anything else.
Second: slavery once was common reality. Because of moral philosophy, people came to realize it was wrong, and it got abolished. So don't tell me philosophy isn't important. As if socialism isn't a philosophy...
Pretty much. If the currency itself doesn't respond to market pressure then everything is fundamentally being controlled at the end of the day.
We have a lot of systems that are themselves mostly capitalist but when the medium of exchange is controlled by the use of force instead of by free trade it taints everything by its control over money supply and interest rates.
Please note that this is a strong way forward to get to the true root of the OWS issues along with Occupy the Fed, Pentagon, WH, etc....
http://cafr1.com/ProtestWallStreet.html
There is no way that USA could be considered to NOT be a capitalist country. The USA is a capitalist country, and this is a FACT.
Also, watch: Tom Woods and Stefan Molyneux Take On Wall Street (http://youtu.be/lXNOxnn7_uA)
The US has corporatism, NOT free market capitalism. The big corps and banks don't want real free markets! They don't like competition. They need the government to form and sustain monopolies and cartels. At least admit that big business has a huge influence on policy-making. And don't forget that corporations are legal entities whit special privileges (limited liabilities) and that (central) banks are allowed to do things that are illegal for you and me (money-creation). Do you honestly believe these things are part of a truely FREE market??
This is the way capitalism works. The reason why there is "no competition" is because capitalism NATURALLY tend to concentrate business in few hands.
This is a NATURAL issue in capitalism. During the early 19th century, capitalism was composed by small and midsized business. But in a natural process, some companies started to buy the smaller companies, and became bigger and bigger, until those companies became the giant corporations. This is called "the monopoly stage of capitalism".
Monopolies are a natural consequence of "free market capitalism".
No they are not. Monopolies would hardly form in a truely free market. There may be a natural monopoly because a company simply provides a very good product or service, but only as long as it remains good and cheap. Profit always attracts competition, that's why corps lobby the state for special favors. Some info:
http://youtu.be/eO8ZU7TeKPw
http://youtu.be/nOBD6v8g1F4
http://youtu.be/pdNC_NpgM1s
Monopolies can very easily form in a free market. The bigger company can sell products for a cheaper price, and everyone will buy from the bigger company. The bigger company will grow more and more, will purchase the competing companies, and will become a giant corporation. The small companies won't have any chance of competing with the big corporation, because the big corporation has a thing called "economy of scale".
You are wrong. Read http://mises.org/daily/5266
Yes you are correct. Actual textbook capitalism, even in textbooks by Greg Mankiw, Bush's economic adviser, point out that no markets actually follow the definition of a "perfect market," that many markets are so far from perfect that they are broken, and that the only entity strong enough to fix a broken market is the government.
The idea that markets always make better decisions better than government (i.e., the people through democratic representation) is at best a failed theory disproved by decades of economic data, and at best pure propaganda designed to allow corporations to use their wealth to extract more wealth from the people of the world.
My opinion is that at this point in history, we need to replace broken markets, with government programs (call it socialism if you like). The health insurance market cannot function as a market. Education is not a business. Retirement income cannot depend on how the market is doing that year.
The oil business as it is run now is broken. (Oil companies are allowed to take our oil out of the ground for about 10 cents a barrel, then sell it back to us at $4/gallon. Then we have to waste thousands of lives and trillions of dollars making the world safe for big oil.) The global financial institutions have managed to socialize losses and privatize profits. (BOA just got caught skimming a little bit every day from the public pensions that they manage. There defense is that it is legal.)
The "Executive Compensation Boards" at big corporations are packed with CEOs that sit around and vote each other huge pay packages, even when they lose money for their shareholders or crash the world economy.
These are not markets, these are scams. We will not put up with it anymore. Vote all of the corporate pet politicians out!
I agree. I think that the government should have a strong presence in the economy, in two ways:
Direct presence, both in non profit sectors (like education, healthcare) and "for profit" sectors (oil, banking, mining, electricity) through the ownership of federal public companies.
Regulation of the markets and the private business. I'm not for the complete abolition of all private business, because I think they have a role in society, but the private business should be regulated by the government, to prevent harmful behavior from the private companies.
This world has enough resources and technology to permit all the 7 billion human beings on Earth to have a decent life, good education for free, good healthcare for free, without any need to be a slave working 50 hours per week. The resources and technology the world has are more than enough to provide it to all human beings. Only the irrationality of "free markets" prevent the world from reaching this goal.
Have you ever heard about the "Ease of Doing Business Index"?
Learn about it on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_Doing_Business_Index
"The Ease of Doing Business Index is an index created by the World Bank.[1] Higher rankings indicate better, usually simpler, regulations for businesses and stronger protections of property rights."
Well, the USA ranks 5th in world ranking in 2011. The USA is the fifth country in the world where it's easier for private companies to do business. And people still saying it's "not a capitalist country".
By the way, being "more business friendly" is not a garantee of prosperity.
Georgia (12th) and Thailand (19th) are two countries that are in the "Top 20". Georgia has a nominal GDP per capita of only $2,658 dollars. Thailand has a nominal GDP per capita of only $4,992 dollars. Hardly any sign of prosperity.
Meanwhile, Luxembourg is not very "business friendly", ranking 45th in the 2011 ranking, and has a nominal GDP per capita of $108,831 dollars (almost 50 times that of Georgia).
Your point is? Scandinavia is a region in Europe with different countries each one with a different government. However all of them have better health care, better education and better care for the unemployed in comparison to the USA.
I know it. Capitalism with more regulation and more government intervention, like they have in Scandinavia, is better than unregulated, "savage" capitalism, like the US capitalism.
Don't know if u mean it ironic. But yes US capitalism is hardcore capitalism . Socialism is not as scary as they say in the USA. Socialism rules in Europe (if I personally like it or not).
The difference is that USA beliefs the people should do everything themselves, while in the EU they believe that some basic things need to be compulsory. In Holland all people must have healthcare insurance, at least for the most basic illnesses (like chemo for cancer). If you are unable to work, because you are unfit to work, the government pays your healthcare insurance. Insurance companies are obliged to take you for the basic package.
I'm not being ironic. But I don't think Europe has any "socialist" country. Just capitalist countries with social-democratic system. I think social-democratic capitalism is much better than US-style hardcore "unregulated free markets" capitalism.
"...US-style hardcore "unregulated free markets" capitalism"
We may fundamentally disagree about what the best system is, but this is simply a lie.
"The economic interference of today's cabinet departments is reinforced and amplified by more than one hundred federal agencies and commissions, the most well known of which include, besides the IRS, the FRB and FDIC, the FBI and CIA, the EPA, FDA, SEC, CFTC, NLRB, FTC, FCC, FERC, FEMA, FAA, CAA, INS, OHSA, CPSC, NHTSA, EEOC, BATF, DEA, NIH, and NASA."
"...as of the end of 2007...the Federal Register contained fully seventy-three thousand pages of detailed government regulations."
Link: http://mises.org/daily/3165
The Scandinavian-Welfare Myth Revisited: http://mises.org/daily/4146
The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism: http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/5616.aspx
http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/
USA not even in the top 25 below Costa Rica
come on protesters like you think your going to get what you want? you need to start with your local police departments and National Guard Stations to make them come to arms if you want any change. Other wise you are just protesting producers making movies you don't like.