Forum Post: Alternative to Money - Venus project
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 27, 2011, 9:44 p.m. EST by harry2
(113)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
http://youtu.be/Cf1gZxmIDKw It may be time for this project
At age 63 i can say from my own experience that a RBE is something i feel is not only possible but we're already moving in that direction. OWS has created their own mini RBE haven't they? We're moving from the industrial age 2 the technological age and this generation can move beyond the need 4 money. Look what these kids r already doing w/t all this communication so far. Without the crutches, what is it that these kids can't do? My suggestion is 2 do what i did & read/listen/watch more. It's all outlined. This isn't a 2day, 2morrow kinda thing, it's emergent. We didn't replace ALL the wagons w/cars in one day did we? And anyway, if i can wrap my head around a new idea at my age, why can't some o/t current generation? RBE answers all the global problems w/o harm 2 anyone or the earth. It's cooperation w/o competition. It makes common sense and I support it and Occupy 100% Don't u see that the universe brought all u kids together? TZM/TVP/OWS/ all moving towards a more sane world. It sure is a helluva lot better than this merry-go-round. Peace & love, Mamma D "^_^"
Yes, I agree, especially with your statement that we're already moving in that direction. I think that the key word is "Acknowledgment". If people acknowledge the change that is happening, then we can control it. I feel that if we don't, there will be a lot of pain in the transition.
Fully agree and really hope that it OWS activity will not stop, but grow bigger and bigger. This movement gave me confidence that people will always rise up once Mal-Justice, Greed, and lobby driven politics fails.
Please see: "Five Interwoven Economies: Subsistence, Gift, Exchange, Planned, and Theft " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vK-M_e0JoY "This video presents a simplified education model about socioeconomics and technological change. It discusses five interwoven economies (subsistence, gift, exchange, planned, and theft) and how the balance will shift with cultural changes and technological changes. It suggests that things like a basic income, better planning, improved subsistence, and an expanded gift economy can compensate in part for an exchange economy that is having problems."
The Venus Project focuses mostly on a Resource-Based planned economy with an assumption that planning can be done by technocrats creating some computer software. The issues are not so simple, because ultimately we need to discuss values and assumptions that would go into such software, and those values and assumptions can also change as time goes by. So we are left with some form of politics, not just "science and technology".
Those other types of economic transactions -- local subsistence like with 3D printing and solar panels, exchange but with a basic income, and a gift economy like Wikipedia and blogging, all can be part of making a society work in addition to participatory government planning at all levels.
Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows have a lot of good ideas and point out a lot of big problems, but that does not mean the Venus Project solutions are complete.
Ultimately, we can move beyond money, and probably will. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilY4hRgfC2Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui6g23ygov8
But even in the future, we will have ways that we coordinate things through emails or twitters or things like that. And we may still have some rationing of energy and materials on bigger scales probably managed through some form of accounting and equity something like a basic income or some sort of political lobbying for people to bring their resources together to do bigger projects. See also: http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
To some extent, when you account for each resource instead of each dollar, you end up with hundreds or thousands of currencies instead of just one (each currency representing a type of material or good or service). And you still have the issue of how to allocate all those currencies. And then you are back to a tension between central planning (a government of some sort) and distributed planning (a market of some sort). Or as Manuel De Landa said: http://www.t0.or.at/delanda/meshwork.htm "Indeed, one must resist the temptation to make hierarchies into villains and meshworks into heroes, not only because, as I said, they are constantly turning into one another, but because in real life we find only mixtures and hybrids, and the properties of these cannot be established through theory alone but demand concrete experimentation."
This are great ideas to think about.
I may be more radical. Venus project is not entirely perfect just based on the fact that this ideas are quite old and did not advance significantly. The amount of Followers is also not so large.
What I like about it is the elimination personal inhered goods/ wealth. Wealth should sharing by the quantity people in the form of natural resources.
Lifelong education and universities is also a good idea.
Of course there is no perfect concept, but I hope technology can provide the solution.
Thanks.
I guess part of the issue is that we get the kind of technology that reflects our politics. So, right now, we have a oil pipelines and huge oil conglomerates and a few oil refineries so profits can be centralized. We don't have lots of solar panels because that would mean wealth was more distributed (it's hard to charge for access to the sun).
So, there can be political implications of technological choices that themselves were driven by politics (and economics as it effects politics). We need the kind of technology that reflects our values.
We have to stop thinking about governing and politics. The way they are doing business is a thief economy.
The economies are by far more sensitive then we think.
If the people attach where it hurts, we can force the way business is done in the future.
Imaging just if we jointly agree to stop driving on certain days. Jointly agree not to pay a mortgage starting at a certain month.
Refusing to eat chunk food chain by chain? Over loading business in an agreed way. Voting in a joined effort and forcing changes in a joined way in exchange
Only if we can agree to act and act jointly we can be a greater power for change then "greed-crowd" can expect. Maybe this movement get us there. We have all together have been cheated!
Technology I agree - and science is on the best way to it, If they don't get blocked by military, corporate greed, and stupid politicians.
I have great hope in nano technology, bio tech, Solar, wind power, and pure air and water power.
Again, for stuff like nanotech it depends how it gets implemented. If people focus all the money on nanoweapons instead of nanosolar and nanomedicine, then we will just have more to fight over and worse results.
I agree with you that a society can do some collective economic action. The environmental movement is a good example of that, but it has been thirty or more years in the making to see various related changes. I don't think we have 30 years to solve the issues relating to so much being produced and people not having the cash to access it.
Basic stuff like moving money to credit unions might help, too.
Yes, a lot of business does seem to end up as a theft economy -- with privatized profits but socialized costs and risks (but usually done legally through the political process). How to change that is a tough question. But some kind of non-violent collective action will no doubt be part of it, like what you suggest or something else. Ideally it would be something that does not really entail personal sacrifice or risk as much as making a choice -- so like moving money to credit unions from big banks, or eating vegetarian, or having potlucks to discuss ows instead of eating out at chains, and so on.
Collective sacrifices are small compared to the impact. Your comments and this OWS movement bring me hope.
I don't know how they do it now since the generators were taken away. I hope they hold on and no one will freeze to death.
Over time the establishment will show there real face, and more people will rise up and really drive to a change.
The alternative to money - there should not be banks that charges interest at all. Union banks are fine, but still, they are working with branches - that is not necessary.
PayPal does not need branches and still I can purchase everything with the debit card or online.
A online bank for everyone direct clocked to the fed for now!
As soon as we can implement barter token, we can switch to a new monitory value system.