Forum Post: Alright guys, let's get serious - tell me what a living wage should be in a given location
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 10, 2011, 10:19 p.m. EST by VladimirMayakovsky
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Pick the location. Then tell me how much it costs for basic housing, food, transportation to work, and healthcare. Add 10% more for incidentals. Then let's calculate the living wage. Add taxes on top.
Let's start with NYC, a very expensive place. You can share an apartment for $500/month. If you cook all meals food for one person is no more than $200/month. Medical insurance is a biggie, but with UHC coming it will be no more than $600/month. Subways and buses cost no more than $150/month. Adding 10% for incidentals, for $1600/month you have your living wage. This translates to $10/hour. Add the ridiculous taxes in NYC and NY and bring it up to $13/hour. You are not going to pay any Federal taxes at that wage level.
So, if the most expensive city in the country has a living wage of $13/hour, the average in the country is probably half of that, which is about where minimum wage is. So what's the problem?
That's a poor analysis. You assume that the world is worth living in at that wage with no assets to start with.
If you got nothing, you gotz nothing to lose. So gamble... ask him for $75 an hour.
I assume nothing other than this simple fact - human being need 4 basic things to live - food, shelter, healthcare, and transportation. Perhaps it is not worth living to you if you do not have a McMansion and take two vacations each year to Bora Bora. I have certainly seen many Wall Street types who feel life is not worth living without a wardrobe full of Zegna suits and a harem full of women to fuck. That has nothing to do with living wage. That has to do with greed, just at a different level.
do you think people at 50k are doing these things.?
No, bu they want to, and that's the core of the OWS movement. they are trying to pass it off as living wage. The real living wage is far, far lower than $50k/year. It is basically the minimum wage. Which is not perfect, as cost of living is different in different parts of the country, but on average it is spot on as a living wage, not a live rather well wage.
so we see.. you advocate america being made up of tin shanty towns and mud huts.. just tell the truth. you want america to become a third world country.
Actually I like America just the way it is, and it is in no way a third world country. If you think it is, you have never been in a third world country. People don't get paid $30k in a third world country. The collective lack of international knowledge on this forum is astounding.
exactly and people without jobs dont get paid 30k here.. you think the 14 million without jobs should pick apples... those people live in shanties.. your the one that wants the staus qou that will get us to that point.. america will be a third world country with people who think like you running things
Ah, so let the illegal immigrants pick the apples, eh? You only like to enjoy eating an apple. Picking apple must be too much like real work.
Fuck. it took you long enough to spit it out. Fine. That's a living wage. And gosh, you had your answer all along. Surprise surprise.
the problem is there are no jobs .. who cares what you figure out it takes to live if you have no job? your point is moot.
91% of Americans have a job. But let's settle the living wage issue first, then we will get to jobs. I promise I will. But why not tell me and show me with numbers what is the right living wage? That word gets thrown around a lot. Let's see what the true living wage is.
you first have to define living. as opposed to surviving from your post.. i think you mean surviving.
So define living. I have a suspicion it would include a suburban McMansion and two trips a year to Bora Bora. Oh, and a big ass TV and a gas guzzler. If you are the hip type you would probably also include a bunch of Chinese made gizmos like a Mac and an iPad. So go ahead, define it for me.
a dry place to sleep at nite..you cant count your car.. with heat or legal way to have a fire. private bath, free water, food, clothes. and the place has to be clean.. no germs or toxins or pest in the woodwork,, and not salvation army clothes.. the same clothes you are wearing. and forget ny.. most people must have a car.. insurance, gasoline, internet is required because most legalities are accessed from the internet now a days. a phone.. a tv.. a radio. and electricity
OK, now price it out for me for Podunk, ButtFuckState and tell me what the living wage should be. For a single person please, don't add on a wife who stays at home and raises 2.7 kids, plus a dog.
one person 30k a year
Or $15/hour. In NYC I would agree. In Podunk, no way. Show me the calculations please? Anyway, the median wage is $26k/year so it ain't that bad.
its more expensive to live in podunk.. nyc has nothing on the rest of us.. you just said you could rent a place for 1k.. same here. plus you have to have a car to survive .. everything cost the same no matter whre you are.. get out of the city an live little. and the whole point is that the 15/hour jobs are what is being lost just for the greed of ceo's
So do the budget please and show me?
Well, a "living wage" based on where you choose to live is not amenable or fair. Your geography is a choice. Your abilities and gifts are not inherently worth more than mine if I choose to live in Kentucky.
If it is, I want my wages based on Honolulu HI and will move there. The cost of living isn't even as ridiculous as what it is to live in the mostly frozen hell cesspool of wall street corruption.
There is another post on here and it was figured that the new minimum wage could be $100,000 a year for any job in any location.
How much does it cost to live in a park in NYC? That's the answer.
You can find the universal living wage charts for every major town/city here. http://universallivingwage.org/ just click on your state and you can see what the living wage should be. your calculations are way off. If you know where to get a room in new york for $500 please tell me! you can see average 1 bedroom rents for every city at this website so please take a look, you are way off.
You need to share an apartment. Shelter is shelter. It doesn't mean having your own house so that you can watch porn without any interruption. The website can say what it wants, why don;t you do the calculations and post it here. So far no one has taken me up on my challenge, which goes to show how empty the living wage slogan is.
Either way, the cost of living varies based on location. That's one reason there should be no federal minimum wage. It's easier to influence government at the local level anyway, so let each area decide for themselves.
Defining wants and needs is important. Do you need an iPhone with a data plan or just a regular cellphone? Do you need an iPad and a laptop? Do you need cigarettes? Do you need designer clothes or can you Hanes it all the way? Do you need an mp3 HDD in your car? Do you need Starbux, or can you make your own? Do you need to go out and eat, or cook your own meals? Do you need a soda, chips and cheez-its? Do you need a tattoo, dyed hair, random pieces of scrap metal in your face? Will those things help you get a serious career or just a minimum wage job? The problem is that people are insatiable. They want more than they need. We live in a net food wasting country with obesity issues, if you can afford to be overweight you're not starving. If everyone lived within their means "small" businesses would reign supreme.
In a suburban or rural area with a lower cost of living, how are you going to get to your job without a car. And of course if you add kids to the mix, a roommate type situation is not viable and you would also have to factor in childcare.
Why would you have kids if you can't afford them? Planned Parenthood gives out free birth control. As for the cost of transportation in a rural or suburban area, don't live there. Live in places with public transportation. Look, once again we are going back to wants and not needs. No one needs to have a suburban house with an yard and a white picket fence where the kids play. That's a want. The need is food, shelter, transportation and healthcare. So the living wage should be set at that level. If people want more they have to do what it takes to earn more, that is not going to be given to them in silver platter.
There are poor and lower middle class rural and suburban communities too you know. Lots of them, all across this great nation with limited or no public transportation. And no matter how much finger waging you do, people are going to have kids whether their poor, lower middle class or wealthy. Why should wages people are paid not allow for covering the basics.
The point he is trying to make is that young people are no longer capable of thinking in these terms. Years ago you said good bye to the parents and very anxiously walked out the door... you prioritized, determined your minimum needs in accordance to your means, developed a budget (exactly as he is doing here), and you stuck to that budget (this includes even making babies you can't afford). And because it was so difficult to do without the things other people had, and in many ways so demeaning, you tried to better yourself. And when it was all said and done, you had the benefit of saying, I did it my way. I created my own opportunities. And it worked. It's an emotional thing centered on human dignity. And I think it's still very possible for people to do if they are willing to try because the basic living wage is still relatively low.
So people will have kids even though they can't afford them, and will live where they live even if they can't afford to, and the rest of society needs to make up for that by raising the living wage. Got it now. We need to subsidize people who are unwilling to live within their means. Minimum wage is a living wage. It already covers the basics. What you are talking about is not a basic need. It is a want.
I think you misunderstood me. There are people born and raised in rural and suburban areas who don't have the money to move elsewhere. It's not a choice of "living beyond their means" It's reality all over the country. There are people driving 30 miles to walmart in shit heap of a car for a job that pays $8.00 an hr and if their car breaks down and they can't afford to fix it, they are just out of luck. And they don't have health care benefits so the government's got to pick up the tab for that, if they qualify. A higher wage is not a want, it's a need.
If their ancestors said that they can't afford to move to the USA they would still be in some shithole in Europe. Whatever happened to the immigrant spirit?
The minimum wage in 1960 was 1.00 since then cost in living has gone up 13x, so I say you are spot on.
living wage huh? Whatever you can earn. My family lives on a whole hell of a lot less than most consider a living wage.
share an apartment for 500 each a month in NYC? with just one roommate?
But you show me your calculation.
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/749-E-6-St_Out-Of-Area-Town_NY_10009_M45799-55456?ex=NY533070161
I'm asking just one roommate? I don't need to look at prices of apts in NYC, I've rented several apts in NYC. But if you think 500 each for two people in Manhattan, good luck. Do people get to have internet and phones in your scenario?
living wage re: necessities or living wage with some luxuries? Phone Id almost say necessity, but internet, that's new, still a luxury.
That's not a luxury. Cable tv is a luxury. Participating in information age is a right.
Stay late at work and participate from there. I used to do that.
Again, are we talking young people or hard working middle aged people?
Hard working middle aged people can't stay late at work and post BS on chat rooms? Or are we talking free porn from the privacy of your own house? I fail to see why you bring up the age factor over and over again. Human beings don't change that much with age when it comes to living, except for healthcare.
Again, you have access to information. Fucking look it up. What are we, your God damn only access to information. What's your point?
Look up what? That shelter needs change with age? People need to eat out more when they age?
What is your fucking point? Get on with it. What's your idea of a living wage? you obviously have this worked out. I'm on here arguing with these silly OWSers often, but you're really ridiculous. What are you trying to get them to say?
You are getting angry. Take a deep breath. Perhaps jack off while watching free porn on the internet. Then come back and reread the first post that I made on this thread. Then you will know what my fucking point is.
20 years ago I was in this country illegally picking strawberries because in Mexico we still shit in a hole in the ground. I became legal (its easy) and a citizen of the US. Internet is not a right, its just today's silver spoon in someone's mouth in the US.
I disagree. The disenfranchised have a right to be a part of the most prominent means of participating in societal dialogues. Internet barely existed 20 years ago.
haha
That's what Im saying. Food is a necessity, water, sanitation. talking to people in Sierra Leone just because we can do it these last few years and got used to it, not so much. Internet is just tv only more so.
I don't know if I'd call internet a necessity right now, although clearly we're moving in that direction. If you don't use internet, you'll have to use phone or a lot of travel. But another way to look at it would be: would the country be so much better off if everyone had access to the internet that it's worth doing? My thought is, the more people can do things like this the better, this is modern culture being made and I'd like everyone involved. How cheap would it have to be to be worth doing?
I'm talking about being involved in conversations like these, having input, reading a variety of news, etc. If the OP is talking about young people starting out, I don't care. But if he is implying that just surviving is all we can offer a grown man who goes to work everyday, I'm not understanding why that would even be a question.
No internet. One shared land line. I lived like this 20 years back when I was a graduate student. I didn't die (so my wage would indeed qualify for living wage). In fact I got the upward mobility that has landed me in the 1%. I did have 2 housemates.
If you're talking just starting out. Sounds fair. I lived like that until I found my way. If you're talking grown, blue collar adults, I'd feel that's not fair.
Are we talking fair wage or living wage? You may think fair wage is $2M per year. I certainly know a bunch of people who think they are starving on 7 figure salaries. But that's neither here nor there. We are talking living wage which is the same across age groups as the needs for living don't change over the years. Except for health care , but that's why we have Medicare and Medicaid and soon UHC.
Why shouldn't a grown man, who may not have had the means or inclination to attend college, merely survive? Everyone deserves a dignified life. Not 72 inch flat panels, but some of the comforts wealthier people have. I'm not an OWSer, but I do believe that laborers deserve to make enough money to be happy, safe and content. Your scenario does not include heat or AC.
Heat is a need, A/C isn't. People in Africa live fine without A/C. You get a fan. So add heat and electricity. I have repeatedly asked this forum to show me their own math to come up with a living wage. All I have gotten back in reply is that it is not a matter of living wage, it is a matter of having more than a living wage as people who didn't have the inclination to do what it takes to earn more should still earn more.
Arrrrrgh. Are you talking about people just out of school or older people who work daily?
I don;t give a shit about the age. Just because someone is older doesn't mean they are entitled to a higher living wage, as, for the 15th time, the conditions to keep living do not change. Do you dispute that? Or are you saying that a 50 year old must have the coolest gadgets because she is 50? This is really getting childish. iPads for the AARP!
No, I'm saying that the 50 year old man who does your lawn should live with some dignity. Get to your fucking point would ya? A living wage has many variables, as you well know. Cut to the chase and spit it out.
What's the lack of dignity in what I said? iPads do not get you dignity. Nor does posting on internet chat rooms. the 50 year man who does my lawn is from Venezuela. I tip him all the time when he does good work. I scream at him when he lets my dog loose by leaving the backyard door open. No different than any other job. It has nothing to do with his living wage.
Whatever your skills and education should be paid in our global economy
You're a bore. You think the truly wealthy only have one guy doing their lawn? Adios, amigo.
Actually it's not a poor analysis. The poor can't afford a shared apartment at $500, a month, I mean, because, first of all, who would live with them, right? But it is the way the poor people budget; it's just simple math.
Since you're buying, I'll take a fitty. And we'll call it even.
Actually, I live in area where the rent is higher and we lack public transportation but even if I throw in a used car payment, gasoline, utilities in the form of cable, Internet access, phone and cell... and I eat four times as much as the daily allowance, I'm still at only 10 or 11 an hour for both myself and my GF.