Forum Post: All men are created equal?
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 12, 2011, 8:28 a.m. EST by Calypsophia
(74)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
So says the US Declaration of Independence.. and it's a fine ideal.. and would be true if it wasnt for money. money systems in and of themselves create the classes. No matter what monetary system is used there with always be the sick and homeless on one end, and the obscenely rich and wealthy on the other. Always.
Men are not defined by their money. We are born naked, we leave the world the same way.
All men are equal in what rights they have - not in their skills, intellect, strength, or drive.
excellent and concise response
we are created equal according to our god and the manner of our birth, however the life we are born into is one of gross inequality according to the station of your birth. And not everyone is able to rise as far as they would like to go. So no.. we are not all equal, and it is the usage of money that makes it that way and will KEEP it that way, no matter what the politics, no matter what the laws, no matter the programs, or the party. The only way to create the REAL change people want, the only way to create true fairness is to move beyond monetary systems.
Of course we are all created equally, what you are addressing is not equality of opportunity, but rather equality of outcome.
The government is there to protect your inalienable right to PURSUE happiness, not to attempt to provide a guarantee of the outcome.
that is true.. but when there are no jobs hiring and people NEED money, or when someone cant qualify for any financial aid for school, or when someone cant afford the medicines they need how can they pursue basic happiness??? Money is ALWAYS the obstacle... more so for some than others.
It states that all men are created equal, but it does not state that all men will see equal results in their struggles through life. Equal outcomes are not guaranteed by any document, nor should they be. If varying efforts resulted in the same outcome for all participants, what would be the point in trying?
We are equal only during the zygote phase of development. From then on out it's unfair.
Occupy the Ivy League!! These schools manufacture the 1%. The Harvard/Princeton/Yale Lawyer\MBA cabal are firmly in control of our corporate government. Obama,Bush,Clinton,Bush Sr. Are products of these institutions. The 1% are invariably from these factories of elitism and effectively control all three branches of government. Down with the Ivy League! Occupy! Shut down MBA programs! Reform the law schools!
We are all equal according to the manner of our birth, and perhaps according to what god you worship, but that's where equality ends. Perhaps we are "created" equally... but the situations we are born to dictates what class we shall be raised in. In the natural world, none of us is more or less important than the other. In our Civilization however, we may have the same rights, but the rich and the poor are not and never will be "equals".
They weren't saying that they were all equally wealthy friend. They were saying all men and women were equally human. Beyond that they weren't fools. They knew, as we do that were all born with different genes and families etc. and all that makes us more or less then equals.
It's intent is that government should respect each citizen as if they are equal.
Humans are not equal. It's our differences which make us individuals and empower us. We talk about the 1% who are rich. How about the 1% who end up being rock stars, super models or NBA players? Most of us would love to do that but we don't have the skill(or sometimes the ambition). Sure, we can force a system where we pretend everyone is equal, but it won't stop preferences. Discrimination is simply choice. It's liberty.
Today we are jealous of money. We abolish it and then we are jealous of the beautiful. The person who is taller, has bigger muscles, a bigger penis, is smarter, etc. We need to get over our jealousy and not use it to penalize those who have more but to be thankful it made us an individual. Many in OWS falsely believe Marxism is equality, but it's just collective terrorism against the individual.
People who move to the United States for a better life and stay for ten years and get used to not living in complete poverty should be granted the same rights as citizens. Under Obama's watch, over one million immigrant "US workers and families" were sent home, torn away from their families and forced to leave behind loved ones. As a US citizen, married to a non-citizen that is not allowed into the United States, I often wonder what makes me better than him or different. Maybe it's my "birth certificate" as if it is under mine or his control where we are born.
Stop blaming him. Individual states made individual laws as well to suit their purpose to get rid of anyone who doesn't fit into the mode of the majorities ruler ship.
He is only the President, he does not control this country or the individual mandates of Congress, the Supreme Court and individual states, per se. Everyone should study the legal documents of this country so you can stop heaping all the sins of this nation upon one man.
I am not blaming Obama, so much as I am blaming his administration and the administration itself. Also, I am just pissed that a government and individual embassies and consulates have complete control over my family's happiness and life. You, apparently do not know anything about immigration, immigration laws, biases, corruption, or my individual situation, so please do not respond further with your negative responses. We are supposed to be fighting together, not apart.
I think if you reread what you posted and my reply, that I fully support the fact that the administration is corrupt. Obviously you are attacking the wrong person, since my family immigrated to these shores eons ago!! So don't assume you know anything about my plight or the plight of many others who have and still are suffering at the hands of corrupt individuals who "claim" to represent this government whose laws are "for the people and by the People". I am not fighting anyone, I am voicing my right to be heard and treated fairly and with dignity by individuals who supposedly have our best interest at heart which also includes you. your family, and many others who have died to preserve this right!!!
Everyone's family immigrated unless you are Native American. I am talking about immigration now, not eons ago. It's quite different.
Not really dah lng!! There is a history past, present and current regarding this country, this land, these amalgamated nations. You are just entertaining the misconceptions that has been fed everyone and have made the masses believe they were something special and anyone not the same was an outsider. Anyone stepping foot on these shores has the right to be here just as the founding father's "created" their own right to be here. So, you think that all people living here regardless of when they arrived, eons, 1400, 1500, 1900, 2000 were treated any more special than you and your family? I think you like playing the victim and are putting forth more hatred than you need to.
Your reply is confusing. I do think that "Anyone stepping foot on these shores has the right to be here just as the founding father's "created" their own right to be here" so what are you arguing with me about?? I just think that things have changed with immigration than the way things were when our grandparents arrived here by boat. It is not easy for immigrants in a society fueled by racism, money, class and power. Arizona is a good example of racial "latino" profiling and classist prejudice. I am a citizen, so I am therefore not fighting for myself, but for my husband who is not allowed into this country because of racist politicians, and other families torn apart by deportation and the belief that we are not all equal with the right to want a better life for ourselves and for our families. If any of these politicians and lawmakers were from Central America or any other third world/war torn country, they would be jumping the border fence too!!
Apparently you think that I am the real enemy and that is why you keep trying to push your point and agenda down my throat. We are on the same team even if you don't think so. I am just fighting about the injustices in my life and how I see it. My opinion is no better or worse than yours.Keep fighting, just not with me.
It's not easy for anyone in this society. I get so tired of "special interest" groups of people who feel that their cause is the only cause for radical changes to the Constitution, or that other races on these shores have not had to deal with 'RACISM, MONEY, CLASS or POWER" struggles. Racial profiling is rampant, not only by the system, but is also perpetuated by individuals against those who are of different races and backgrounds in their own lives and neighborhoods...you know....against one another!!!. I get tired of the same ole BS..because at the end of the day...YOUR OWN KIND WILL SELL YOU OUT IN A HEARTBEAT...so who is the real villain here? It's greed, not race, not color, not nationality nor religion!!! Just pure hatred and greed!!!
Incorrect, what we most immediately need is a comprehensive strategy that implements all our demands at the same time, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to be 1 of 100,000 people needed to support a Presidential Candidate – such as myself or another you'd like to draft – at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Remember that any candidate, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet; it's the STRATEGY that the people organize themselves behind, in military internet formation, that's important. Read and think critically about the 1st link and join the 2nd link and you'll see exactly what I mean.
That is why the monetary system should be ended: for the betterment of humanity.
Technology is the impetus for the dawning of the new era. For the first time all of humanity can instantaneously communicate on a global scale. We can control our birth rate with the use of safe effective birth control. We have the resources to feed and house the world’s population. Most all human suffering is manmade or worsened by greed and lack of empathy. Technology has also given us the ability choose our destiny. We can continue the current trajectory: depletion of resources, growing inequalities and war. Or, we can choose a new way.
The path to enlightenment, equality, and sustenance is attainable with a united movement. Part of that movement is time bank. Time bank is a network of humanity. Organized on line. Completely transparent. All inclusive. Hour in. Hour out. That’s it. No person’s hour is more or less valuable than another.
A worldwide time bank can be started now. With enough participation it can catalyze the transition from the current corrupt monetary system to a society where money is irrelevant and each person is valued. Fear and greed will paralyze this movement. Hope and imagination can propel it.
Time is the Substance from which I am made. – Jorge Luis Borges
inequality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO-Oa3TPPqQ
Technology is the impetus for the dawning of the new era. For the first time all of humanity can instantaneously communicate on a global scale. We can control our birth rate with the use of safe effective birth control. We have the resources to feed and house the world’s population. Most all human suffering is manmade or worsened by greed and lack of empathy. Technology has also given us the ability choose our destiny. We can continue the current trajectory: depletion of resources, growing inequalities and war. Or, we can choose a new way.
The path to enlightenment, equality, and sustenance is attainable with a united movement. Part of that movement is time bank. Time bank is a network of humanity. Organized on line. Completely transparent. All inclusive. Hour in. Hour out. That’s it. No person’s hour is more or less valuable than another.
A worldwide time bank can be started now. With enough participation it can catalyze the transition from the current corrupt monetary system to a society where money is irrelevant and each person is valued. Fear and greed will paralyze this movement. Hope and imagination can propel it.
Time is the Substance from which I am made. – Jorge Luis Borges
51 Comments
So very true, money systems create the classes, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Last I checked, my vagina didn't dispense money when I squeezed out the baby, so I'd have to say, yes, all people are created equal.
And you're wrong about class, lots of things besides money create class - priests and warriors were their own class, not to mention farmers and hunters and craftspeople. Monetary systems are a fairly recent invention in the course of human history, and class is fungible, and decided by societies.
That's a very good point, thank you.
Money has been used since the dawn of Civilization (that's going back to Sumer and Babylon). When you scrutinize the reasons behind most actions, they will eventually all boil down to money and the power it brings.
The Sumerians did have or use money. The Lydians invented coins around 600 BC. The Chinese invented paper money in the 10th century. Humans have been cooperatively dealing with each other for about 200,000 years, give or take.
And...that is why civilizations rise and then they fall. Humans and mankind must relearn how to co-exist if they are to survive and thrive.
If I were mother earth (figuratively speaking) I would shake off all these industrial monstrosities, animosities, and fake way of feeding off of each other BS, as well.. Like Fleas eating the flesh. It amazes me that for 200,000 thousand years (give or take a few 10,000) this earth has been supplying us with everything we need. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED???
we succeeded to the point of terraforming, for better or for worse.
No...that is when the down fall came...Nothing man has done of the last 10,000+ years has helped the earth. That is why she (figuratively speaking) is rebelling. Do you truly believe this planet needs us? We need it.
Ego makes us believe we are really that important!
it wasn't a statement of pride. Earth's chemistry is changing b/c of humans, that is all. In the same way that dinosaurs created oil, or oxygen brought us water, the age of the humans will be known as the Plasticerous Age, when a layer of carbon and plastic was deposited over the crust and the sea floor, that's all. It was a value-neutral statement of fact. The earth needs no help. You can't even say what "helping the earth" means. Anyway, basta, there's a protest to organize.
True, but what worth is a protest if the earth can't sustain us?
I stated; "Do you truly believe this planet needs us?" I said nothing about helping the earth. My remark was thus: "Humans and mankind must relearn how to co-exist if they are to survive and thrive."
Therefore; this protest is not confined to any one particular issue other than mankind's moral, ethical, logical, and reasonable downward spiral and subjugation of one another for greed and power. Thank you very much.
and there has always been absurd amounts of wealth held by the few on one hand, and absurd amounts of homeless people with absolutely nothing or close to it on the other hand. Always, always, always.....
No, really, before agriculture, there really wasn't much time or opportunity to amass wealth. People nowadays don't give much credence to pre-history, but human evolution predates written history by millinea. Again, though, this thread is prolix.
priests... roman catholic church... the richest religious institution in the world, and one that is supposed to exist with humility. HAH. Warriors got booty" and "plunder" when they raided. Mercenary soldiers were hired for money and were known for their selfish, shifting loyalties. Bad examples. The actions of these people boil down to getting money... 'cause that's the only way to get anything else they want.
Actually I was thinking of Mayan, Anglo-Saxon, Hindu, Cherokee, Buddhist, Bo, and Shinto examples. Humans are social animals and societies and monetary systems came into play because tribes learned that working cooperatively increased wealth and stability overall. But your sarcasm is impressive.
actually, money came into play because it became easier to issue a promissory note to someone for them to come to your home or farm or whatever and pick up what they traded for rather than people having to lug allllll their wares further and further away to large market places. Money is NOT necessary in society. We only think it is, and those who have the most and truly control the banking industry WANT you to keep thinking it is.
Money IS necessary in the society in which we live. We would have to give a lot of things up if we were to abolish concepts like money, investment and finance. And our country finding the political will to abolish money is unrealistic. Let's talk about realistic ideas that could accomplish something?
completely agree, this is an unproductive (though not academically uninteresting) subthread.
In the eyes of your god and according to the manner of your birth, yes we are all equal. But once we get into this world, you belong to a 'class'. And that 'class' may dictate what opportunities are open to you and which arent. We dont all start off with the same amount of money like you do in a Monopoly game!
True dat! In the US, there is no upward mobility. There is no moving from one class to another. Thats just a myth.
As another person responded, this is simply not true. It may be the impression of some people who have not been successfully upwardly mobile, but it's simply not true. It's a defeatist, blame-shifting myth, much like the myth that there are no jobs available.
That's just not true, and I know many people who disprove it. They busted ass, applied wits and serious work ethic, and they moved up. That's something I can directly attest to. Maybe it's not true everywhere, but your statement is too blanketing to be correct.
Why should wealth be tied to wits, work ethic and busting ass? Everyone is created equally. And no one creates wealth by themselves. Society has to be there. Society is what creates the wealth and everyone in society should share in it.
Our true wealth is our knowledge, skills, and technical ability. Not the money it currently brings us.
I didn't say that. I only contended your statement:
That's not the case. It's important we be honest and look at facts, if we're to come up with a solution that will really work - even the facts that might not be so sensational and exciting, even the ones that disprove our assertions (maybe even especially those ones - we have to hold ourselves to a standard of truthfulness... corruption and deceit and lopsidedness is what we're against, right?). The truth is there are many people who work their way up from a poor class to middle, and middle to rich. There are still problems for many people that need to be addressed, but it's important to maintain integrity and truthfulness when citing motivations for drastic action.
Not everyone has the ambition or desire to be rich. I know I dont. But that doesnt mean that I'm ok with not having enough $$ to retire with, or that I'm ok with not having enough money to get what medications I need. Some people are just happy with less. Dont need the huge mansion, 3 or more cars, private jet, and servants galore. Why should those perfectly happy with less material possessions have less security?
Yeah, personally, I'm not very big on money. Money doesn't actually mean anything. It's paper, or at best, some semi-useful metals. I'm very interested in decentralizing real resources, and creating networks of people who help each other learn how to provide for themselves, or provide resource networks (when multiple individuals are required in a type of resource, e.g. communications or sharing unbiased news). Calypsophia, do you want to help me work on this? Are you interested in the same idea? If we decentralize resources like food, water, shelter, communication, transportation, news, information, etc., we can forever prevent any power broker or governing body from enforcing total control over us, including future dictators. If they can't scare us into complying by taking away the things we need and thrive on, then they can't force us to do anything. On the other hand, if we interrupt money value, they still have centralized control over vital needs of the population. I mean, maybe some of you do, but I don't have any giant fields of grain or alternate methods of transcontinental communication, or network of journalists willing to only report the facts to me (OK, nobody has that - they all have journalists willing to report certain facts while leaving out others)... You know what I mean?
Now, on your new statement:
What is wealth in your statement? Are we talking about money, pieces of paper? Or are we talking about what money buys, things like food, shelter, education? That needs to be clarified first.
That is a myth fed to you by the corporate media.
What myth? What the hell are you talking about? I told you that I, personally, and many of my friends and other people I know, have risen above our initial classes. I'm relating my personal experience. I don't give a fuck what corporate media says, and I don't listen to it. Ugh. THINK for yourself, stop spouting out what other people say, and read the actual comment.
If you are saying my last comment is a myth, no, it was a question. <sigh>
Maybe you're a puppet, here to discredit this movement as people who just repeat as they're told without thinking... :( If so, go away. I only want to talk to people genuinely interested in finding solutions based in reality, responsibility, and positive momentum.
Reality is.. stick with a primitive (yes, primitive... it's been around for thousands of years) monetary system and our world will perish. And we are intelligent enough to do better than this!
See below comment on decentralizing real resources (instead of fixating on the illusion on money) - tell me what you think. By the way, weird place to inject in a conversation - did you read the original thread line?
Hey man. I'm down here in the streets marching for the common man. Who are you calling puppet?
You still haven't replied to what I said - the important part - and you still haven't answered my question. Makes me wonder. The whole point was that your blanket statement is not true - I can personally vouch for that, and no, I don't even partake in corporate media, so I'm not somehow repeating that blankly, even though if I was it would be supported by the reality I'm surrounded by - many people who I know directly who have risen above their initial class. Geez. Chill out, dude. I even said after that statement:
And yeah, my shnarky remark about you being a puppet:
I was trying to point out that you haven't replied to anything with any substance. You just keep deflecting my statements and questions. Next thing, you'll be challenging me to fist fight, just because I disagreed with you. Great demonstration of democracy, every voice heard and all that. Nice way to "be the change".
Well, that's why we're in the OWS movement! It used to be possible - that was the entire point of the American Dream. It's only been recently killed off.
What we should try for is one class and patrol to make sure no one rises above anyone else.
that wouldnt work. people are different and should NOT be made to be all the same. People need outlets for their aspirations and desires. The only true way to make everyone in society equal is to take OUT the problem of money. Some can still rise higher than others if they have more determination and drive, but no one will have POWER over anyone else.
The minute OWS turns communist or libertarian, rational people like me will leave it.
But it would be good for them if we made everyone equal. Why should we care if they like it or not?
oh, i totally agree. EVeryone's speaking their mind and i love it, it's their right and responsibility to stand up for what they believe in. But as an organized or stated goal, a political allegiance? Won't work for me. Too divisive. There is a lot of power and common ground in the great Cloud of Rage.