Forum Post: Adjustments to the 99percent declaration.
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 5, 2011, 7:47 a.m. EST by number2
(914)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I like most of it and what it is trying to do. But I see the odds of success increasing if it is condensed. I see the odds of success increasing if we tried to center it a bit more.
I think the following points can be agreed upon by the majority of the people in the country, if not 99%:
1 through 5; 8 ;14; 16; 18 and 20.
I would add the more libertarian points such as #21 but I don't think the majority of people support it, sadly. I think we might have a majority to end the wars, now, finally. But, I do think that there is an overwhelming majority that does not support a carbon tax because our electric bills are high enough already.
This is condensed and it's a bill that will go through congress
Pass this and problems are solved.
H.R. 2990 National Emergency Employment Defense Act of 2011
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112%3AH.R.2990.IH:
Sure the 99% is a sleeping giant. But what is so exciting about OWS is that it is an indication that the sleeping giant may be beginning to awaken, if only beginning. Our job, the job of OWS, is to shake awake the rest of the 99%, which is to say organize and mobilize them. In that sense the 90% Declaration is way too premature and the Occupation Declaration is more than adequate.
i'm not sure i'm following you.
i think this is more than adequate too, meaning that it is a bit too much. I think this declaration is misguided in that 99% or any large majority won't support it without some reductions.
i think this is more than adequate too, meaning that it is a bit too much. I think this declaration is misguided in that 99% or any large majority won't support it without some reductions.
The Occupation Declaration is or should be an educational tool for all of us. If you seriously think it goes too far then it is perhaps you who needs some education. Do you think the American empire is a good thing? Are you prepared to argue that? Do you think the exploitation of oppressed minorities is a good thing? Are you prepared to argue for that? Exactly where do you think the Declaration of the Occupation goes too far. Exactly. Show me. Tell me. Let's have that discussion. I think that would be very interesting and productive.
I think it is a tragedy that still in this country, we have bigots and not all people are treated equally. I am an honorary gay and I fully support equal rights for everyone. But what does this issue have to do with Wall St. and the economy? What does it have to do with the American empire?This is a misplaced earmark. It's another topic for another day.
I could write a libertarian christmas wish list too but it isn't practical because this country is far from libertarian and it would be a waste of time and a certain defeat. Social issues will kill the whole thing. We need to put those to the side for the moment and decide what the large majority can agree on. There's about 10 of them there that I can see independents, liberals, libertarians, constitutionalists, etc. agreeing on. The other half will cause problems.
The biggest problem is giving more power to the EPA. Right there you lose almost all libertarians, many independents, moderates and you become the radical left and you have their percentage of the people which is not close to a majority. A carbon dioxide tax won't fly in this economy either and the science doesn't back it up. It's another ponze scheme perpetrated upon the American people.
i'm not talking about me. i'm just saying that practically others won't support it. For me personally, i won't support the carbon tax.
I agree that probably most of the 99% would not support the Occupation Declaration at this point. Most Americans undoubtedly did not support the Declaration of Independence when it was first promulgated either. The point is that the Declaration of the Occupation is a great educational tool. It very clearly articulates the point of view of the vast majority of OWS activists. As a relatively short and easy to read document it is a great educational and organizing tool. We can show it to people any say, "Here. This is what we are about." and be completely honest about it. If we want we can focus on one or two grievances and flesh them out any way we'd like to reflect particular demands, if we'd like, but it's a great organizing tool, and that's what we should be about at this point: organizing.
I see your point but I'm confident that if you took a poll, you would have less support for all 21 articles than you are thinking. I think it is strategically unwise to include all of those. About half of those are nonpartisan issues and the other half already have been shown to be very polarizing issues in the recent past, that one side has brought up against the other.
Someone is trying to tag along their pet issues, here. There will be plenty of support and results if we don't lose focus and keep it about Wall St. and finance. The declaration of independence didn't have an absurd earmark attached to it about the fuel of photosynthesis destroying the environment. OWS will lose all credibility if the fringe environmentalists have their way with it. Those people represent the low single digits.
Look, I'm libertarian which represents about 10% and I'm saying get rid of the libertarian stuff too because the majority doesn't see things the way I do either. We have to be realisitc.
As an educational vehicle it is not at all necessary to use all of the greivances. If we are about organizing people we can point to one or two grievances that might appeal to particular people, but different grievances undoubtedly resonate with different people which is why it is good to have as comprehensive a list as possible. If there is any particular greivance that you find especially offensive, what is it? Certainly you can use that as a negative organizing element. For example, you can point it out to people and say, " I agree with most of these greivances, but I disagree with this. Please join us so we can organize to revise this document and get rid of this small but important point which is entirely inappropriate in this otherwise fine document."
As for the environmentalists, obviously there is some discord about this, but that is the nature of a movement which is trying to be inclusive. There is no reason why we can't agree to disagree with various sections of the Declaration. For example, I really profoundly disagree with the idea of campaign finance reform and I believe its adoption would be a real disaster for the success of popular movements. I also recognize that many people (though not a majority) disagree with me about that. That's just fine. That's the nature of a broad inclusive social movement. It's bound to include elements that have to "agree to disagree."
I don't know of any explicitly libertarian ideas in the Declaration except perhaps its implied opposition to the corporate state could be interpreted to opposition to the state as such.
I wouldn't be here if I couldn't agree to disagree. But what is the point of opening a catalog of every flavor imaginable, if you're trying to deliver a message about some thing in particular? Of course there are environmentalists here and Ron Lawl supporters and all kinds. But the Ron Lawl supporters need to become a part of OWS not OWS become a part of Ron Lawl because Ron Lawl doesn't have the numbers.
Libertarianism is antiwar, freedom to marry whomever you wish and limiting the government. Which if we took the money away they would be limited. I can't remember the rest.
The catalogue of flavors, as you put it, is already open. For better or worse it is what we have and given the organizational form of the General Assembly it is unlikely to change. It is what we have to work with. For my part, while I don't agree with every jot and tittle, I think the Declaration is one of the finest documents ever produced by an American movement of popular opposition.
OK well I don't support your faction. We'll see how splintered this movement gets. It might become completely ineffectual.
There are no "factions" in OWS, which suggests a much harder level of political organization and in fighting than actually exists, though there are what might be characterized as tendencies, a much softer formulation. There is no indication that the Declaration of the Occupation is a splintering document. If anything the opposite is true. It serves as a unifying document for a variety of tendencies within the Occupy movement. If anything I think raising any specific demand would tend to have a splintering effect. The best evidence I have of this is the difficulty those who favor any demand are having getting any particular demand passed by a General Assembly. Those who favor demands tend to disagree among themselves as to what specific demand to favor, so they tend to split among themselves before the issue even gets to a GA.
I've thought a lot about this and discussed it with many people and I expect to continue to do so and this is clearly one of the key political issues of the movement. I expect that my point of view about this may evolve and change depending on time and circumstance, but right now here's my view:
I don't think that OWS is in any imminent danger of splitting on a political basis, though a central political issue is between those who want to raise specific demands and those who think demands are unnecessary.
I do think both of these elements or tendencies are crucial for the health of the movement. Back in the days of SDS the way it was put was "we need liberals for their relevance and radicals for their vision." Right now I would characterize the pro demand folks as the liberal wing of he movement and the anti demand wing as its radical wing.
Both are important. We need both, but precisely because we do need both it is important that neither gain so much dominance that the movement becomes inhospitable to other view points. The two tendencies need to remain in balance.
Meanwhile, I don't think it likely that the movement itself, at least in the larger GAs, will adopt a set of specific demands for a variety of reasons. This has been corroborated for me by several other people active in the NYC GA. First of all the people who favor demands seem to be having considerable difficulty agreeing among themselves on what specific demands to raise. This dissention in and of itself is an indication of how divisive the raising of specific demands would be to the movement as a whole. And even if they were able to bring a specific set of demands to the GA it is unlikely that they have sufficient support to form a consensus.
The consequence will be that the Declaration of the Occupation with its list of greivances but no demands will remain the primary organizing vehicle for the movment.
Groups and individuals may well spin off to advocate for specific demands, but this will be outside organizational center of OWS. Meanwhile, for several reasons, I expect OWS to continue to grow. First of all the issues it is addressing are objectively real. Secondly it has become a world wide movement so that even if it atrophies in one place, the support it has elsewhere will not only keep it alive, but will give it sustainence and enable it to continue to grow.
are you saying these are suggestions then, rather than demands, that will still be voted upon?
If a person doesn't love the OWS park squatters for their nonsense strategy to fail fixing the inequities, the assholes decide you're a Republican, nazi, right wing troll.
The 99% Declaration is fundamentally flawed and in many respects antithetical to the values of OWS even before you get to the section on demands. It's notion of getting representatives from every Congressional District is ridiculous as there is no Occupation or General Assembly presence in most Congressional Districts. Beyond that its restriction on voting and representation rights for minors and noncitizens is not only offensive and inconsistent with OWS values, but also flies in the face of the very real contributions that minors and noncitizens have already made to OWS
Americans won't think for themselves.
read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Americans either want an expert to think for them, many experts know nothing. You still need to choose an expert but there is no thought in doing that. Experts are never going to explain to their victims that they are only 10th best, they are all the best, or Americans want a quote from some big shot. Do they really listen to the quote because that quote is far superior?
Didn't the expert economists who testify before congress or advise the president, destroy the American economy. If it wasn't the experts who designed the strategy that has sunk America, did it all just happen by accident or destiny? I watch sports all the time. The experts are wrong about sports too, most of the time. In the stock market they cover themselves by claiming their advice is long term. There is no definition of long term.
I have been searching for an attorney to sue PIMCO. The class action securities practice is all done on a contingency. From the very beginning of my search I expected to find knowledgeable attorneys who could examine the evidence I presented to them and realize there was no doubt. That hasn't happened yet. They all run to an expert to tell them what to do.
I am very disciplined about using absolute facts with deductive reasoning to arrive at correct conclusions. I've done this since I took a logic course in 1960. I keep it real simple. That doesn't work because 99.999% of Americans are in a trance that is far stronger than I ever imagined. If the trance goes unbroken, nothing will work. People get pissed about the trance. They would rather be called a pervert or anything than admit they are in a trance.
I'll leave it to you to solve that problem. I don't know how to do it.
How about this: Right now there is only one US Rep. per 720,000 people. It's no wonder they don't listen to the people anymore. There is nothing in the Constitution that says it has to be that high. If we reduce that number, the Reps will be closer to the people and their increased number will be much harder for the lobbyists to corrupt. And it will scare the shit out of them.
that sounds good but now you're adding to it.
I would like to see the call based on proportional representation from existing GAs rather than 2 each from each Congressional District, which seems entirely unrealistic to me as there are no Occupations or GAs in most Congressional Districts. I'd also like to delete the restrictions on representation and voting rights for minors and noncitizens. Many minors and noncitizens have been crucial in the Occupation movement and it is a real insult to them, and antithetical to OWS values to exclude them from a national GA. Finally I'd like to see the demands section be much more open ended and based more on the grievance section of the Occupation Declaration
I am just going with what they got already so as to not confuse things further.
A comment on: # 18. Ending the Fed. #
Debt-free money is not new in our history. Its was first introduced by the Colonial America for internal circulation, and then officially by Abraham Lincoln ("greenbacks"). In 1913, a law is passed to give our financial sovereignty back to private banks. To re-ensure our financial sovereignty, #18 should state the following:
18. Repeal the 1913 Federal Reserve Act and outlaw fractional reserve lending.
It's composed of following items:
A comment on FRL: For individuals and non-bank businesses writing a check that you don't own is a felony. It's an illegal privilege banksters sneakily legalized for themselves. Worldwide, 97% of the money does not exists; it's electronically created by banks. FRL is "the" root cause of bank-runs and financial bubbles.
Americans won't think for themselves.
Americans either want an expert to think for them, many experts know nothing. You still need to choose an expert but their is no thought in doing that. Experts are never going to explain to their victims that they are only 10th best, they are all the best, or Americans want a quote from some big shot. Do they really listen to the quote because that quote is far superior?
Didn't the expert economists who testify before congress or advise the president, destroy the American economy. If it wasn't the experts who designed the strategy that has sunk America, did it all just happen by accident or destiny? I watch sports all the time. The experts are wrong about sports too, most of the time. In the stock market they cover themselves by claiming their advice is long term. There is no definition of long term.
I have been searching for an attorney to sue PIMCO. The class action securities practice is all done on a contingency. From the very beginning of my search I expected to find knowledgeable attorneys who could examine the evidence I presented to them and realize there was no doubt. That hasn't happened yet. They all run to an expert to tell them what to do.
I am very disciplined about using absolute facts with deductive reasoning to arrive at correct conclusions. I've done this since I took a logic course in 1960. I keep it real simple. That doesn't work because 99.999% of Americans are in a trance that is far stronger than I ever imagined. If the trance goes unbroken, nothing will work. People get pissed about the trance. They would rather be called a pervert or anything than admit they are in a trance.
I'll leave it to you to solve that problem. I don't know how to do it.
Hijack the context, confuse the readers.
You are a copy-paste TROLL or SPY. Choose the one that fits you the best.
You're a stupid, arrogant, know nothing moron.
Tell me Steve. Which part of my initial post ("18. Repeal the 1913 Federal Reserve Act and outlaw fractional reserve lending.") offended you so much that you keep writing back? It was enacted by Abraham Lincoln himself.
Who cares?
Americans won't think for themselves.
read more -- Americans won't think for themselves.
Americans either want an expert to think for them, many experts know nothing. You still need to choose an expert but there is no thought in doing that. Experts are never going to explain to their victims that they are only 10th best, they are all the best, or Americans want a quote from some big shot. Do they really listen to the quote because that quote is far superior?
Didn't the expert economists who testify before congress or advise the president, destroy the American economy. If it wasn't the experts who designed the strategy that has sunk America, did it all just happen by accident or destiny? I watch sports all the time. The experts are wrong about sports too, most of the time. In the stock market they cover themselves by claiming their advice is long term. There is no definition of long term.
I have been searching for an attorney to sue PIMCO. The class action securities practice is all done on a contingency. From the very beginning of my search I expected to find knowledgeable attorneys who could examine the evidence I presented to them and realize there was no doubt. That hasn't happened yet. They all run to an expert to tell them what to do.
I am very disciplined about using absolute facts with deductive reasoning to arrive at correct conclusions. I've done this since I took a logic course in 1960. I keep it real simple. That doesn't work because 99.999% of Americans are in a trance that is far stronger than I ever imagined. If the trance goes unbroken, nothing will work. People get pissed about the trance. They would rather be called a pervert or anything than admit they are in a trance.
I'll leave it to you to solve that problem. I don't know how to do it.
Americans either want an expert to think for them, many experts know nothing. You still need to choose an expert but there is no thought in doing that. Experts are never going to explain to their victims that they are only 10th best, they are all the best, or Americans want a quote from some big shot. Do they really listen to the quote because that quote is far superior?
Didn't the expert economists who testify before congress or advise the president, destroy the American economy. If it wasn't the experts who designed the strategy that has sunk America, did it all just happen by accident or destiny? I watch sports all the time. The experts are wrong about sports too, most of the time. In the stock market they cover themselves by claiming their advice is long term. There is no definition of long term.
I have been searching for an attorney to sue PIMCO. The class action securities practice is all done on a contingency. From the very beginning of my search I expected to find knowledgeable attorneys who could examine the evidence I presented to them and realize there was no doubt. That hasn't happened yet. They all run to an expert to tell them what to do.
I am very disciplined about using absolute facts with deductive reasoning to arrive at correct conclusions. I've done this since I took a logic course in 1960. I keep it real simple. That doesn't work because 99.999% of Americans are in a trance that is far stronger than I ever imagined. If the trance goes unbroken, nothing will work. People get pissed about the trance. They would rather be called a pervert or anything than admit they are in a trance.
I'll leave it to you to solve that problem. I don't know how to do it.
I'll ask again Mr. copy-and-paste-junk.
Tell me Steve. Which part of my initial post ("18. Repeal the 1913 Federal Reserve Act and outlaw fractional reserve lending.") offended you so much that you keep writing back? It was enacted by Abraham Lincoln himself.
Is that what you learned in Milford, CT? Your school needs to be discredited.
You mean discredit Thomas Jefferson , Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford? Learn your history instead of betraying your great nation.
"I wish it were possible to obtain a single amendment to our Constitution... Taking from the federal government the power of borrowing."
"This issuing power (of money) should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -- Thomas Jefferson, 3rd US President
"It's easy to conceive that great evils of our country and its institutions might flow from such a concentration of power in the hands of a few [who are] irresponsible to the people. Controlling our currency, receiving our public moneys, and holding thousands of our citizens in dependence … would be more formidable and dangerous than a military power of the enemy." -- Andrew Jackson, 7th US President
"The Government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Government's greatest creative opportunity. By the adaption of these principals ... the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity." -- Abraham Lincoln, 16th US President
"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill. Both are promises to pay, but one promise fattens the usurers and the other helps the people." -- Thomas Edison, American inventor, scientist, and businessman
"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -- Henry Ford, American industrialist
Right on homey ! Party in my blue tent @ 7:30 pm...BYOB
http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Tiger called a black asshole by his caddy
Why is that a big deal? How is that racist? Steve Williams, Tiger's famous caddy addressed a caddy dinner before a tournament and claimed, "I apologize for comments I made last night at the Annual Caddy Awards dinner in Shanghai. Players and caddies look forward to this evening all year and the spirit is always joking and fun. I now realize how my comments could be construed as racist. However I assure you that was not my intent. I sincerely apologize to Tiger and anyone else I have offended," but the damage has been done.
America is filled with assholes. There are massive amounts of stupidity. ignorance, irrationality, lying is prevalent. The liars are protected with "flip-flop". This is baby talk by American citizens who attack anybody who call's a liar, a liar. That's not permitted in America because it violates the sacred "political correct" propaganda that has put the entire country of America into a depression and down spiral that has thrown millions of families into the street as a direct result of simple bank and securities fraud.
Bribes are taken in the open. The massive protest by the OWS is about bribes. You would think that people who are so angry about bribes, would be eager to use the word bribes, but that is absolutely not the case. Instead they are in a literal trance of "political correctness" and use the cover-up for bribery which is -- corporate money, donations, contributions, campaign finance.
I have been to the park six times and I have mentioned this absurdity, but the trance is so deep they go right on to not use the word "bribe". They are too arrogant to immediately recognize that I am pointing out a huge flaw in their entire protest. I'm interested in honesty and justice. Honesty and justice has no place in America. Rick Perry's conservative audience in the Republican debates both laugh and applauded the fact that Perry bragged about the 342 executions he allowed because he claims there are no flaws. Not one innocent person was executed for crimes they didn't commit.
America is the world's capital for witch hunts. That is to say that American justice is not as bad as North Korea. American people fall right into line with irrational, weird, bizarre, deceitful behavior. It is the total American culture. There is a night and day propaganda brainwashing operation that completely allows the privileged to rape (in the case of Strauss-Kahn), and the biggest one of all time is 9/11. The American people uniformly, adamantly refuse to examine the facts that prove the 9/11 attack was by George Bush.
No people who are free to think for themselves would willingly want to cover up Bush for his 9/11 attack. Let's bicker about calling Tiger a black asshole. That will keep people in their hypocrisy, fantasy land. Lot's of fairy tales for all Americans who love being in nursery school. That's the state of the American culture that is made into jokes by Jon Stewart, the super brilliant Colbert, the SNL shows, and Letterman. They find outrageously stupid remarks by all the people running for president to be funny. They are told to make jokes but they are precisely what happened on video tape.
Weird, rambling, posting.... too long.. please edit yourself.....think you smoked too much weed.
Americans won't think for themselves.
read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Americans either want an expert to think for them, many experts know nothing. You still need to choose an expert but their is no thought in doing that. Experts are never going to explain to their victims that they are only 10th best, they are all the best, or Americans want a quote from some big shot. Do they really listen to the quote because that quote is far superior?
Didn't the expert economists who testify before congress or advise the president, destroy the American economy. If it wasn't the experts who designed the strategy that has sunk America, did it all just happen by accident or destiny? I watch sports all the time. The experts are wrong about sports too, most of the time. In the stock market they cover themselves by claiming their advice is long term. There is no definition of long term.
I have been searching for an attorney to sue PIMCO. The class action securities practice is all done on a contingency. From the very beginning of my search I expected to find knowledgeable attorneys who could examine the evidence I presented to them and realize there was no doubt. That hasn't happened yet. They all run to an expert to tell them what to do.
I am very disciplined about using absolute facts with deductive reasoning to arrive at correct conclusions. I've done this since I took a logic course in 1960. I keep it real simple. That doesn't work because 99.999% of Americans are in a trance that is far stronger than I ever imagined. If the trance goes unbroken, nothing will work. People get pissed about the trance. They would rather be called a pervert or anything than admit they are in a trance.
I'll leave it to you to solve that problem. I don't know how to do it.
Good job TROLL. How does it feel to betray your own nation?