Forum Post: A real list of demands - Please Debate-
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 21, 2011, 2:31 a.m. EST by VindicatedVigilante
(176)
from Fort Worth, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
1.Remove the conflict of interest or moral hazard from politics by not allowing them legislate over the market! - Justification: If the current administration had not bailed out these banks they would have needed to liquidate all of there assets in order to pay off dept. Whats that mean for you and small businesses? Lower market buy in. The would have had to sell assets below market value therefore stimulating the economy allowing new businesses to offer goods and services at or below market value. You do not raise a cow and ride it to death. You raise it for the slaughter. The reason we have bubbles is government intervention. The reason the cost of “higher education” is so high is government intervention. The FED held interest rates artificially low and the Gov secured loans.
2.Implement a progressive corporate tax. Setting the high at 90% the low at 0%. - Justification: This allows entrepreneurs to enter markets and offer goods and services at a competitive price. If larger corporations attempt to pass on the tax to its employees or the consumer they, the employees and consumer, have other options, more completive options. This also, to a degree, obsoletises engineered obsolescence.
3.Implement a 95% tariff on imported goods. - Justification: This invites industry and manufacturing back to the US.
4.Implement a national 10% sales tax. - Justification: The rich enjoy there money when they spend it. Lets tax them there.
5.Get rid of property and income tax. - Justification: This only hurts the middle class. Give people property rights! Give people there life back! If I spend my time, my life working what I earn is representative of my life.
6.Get rid of tax loopholes. - No need to justify.
7.Deregulate and consolidate! - Justification: The current regulations are not strict enough and have a tenancy toward cronyism and nepotism. If you implement a “tingled corporate regulatory system” holding corporations, employees, and share holders accountable for damages done to person property or otherwise they will regulate themselves. Open the proper customer and employee reporting channels allowing individuals to make reports at the proper level of government. Make all material produced by investigations publicly available.
8.Get rid of unions. - Justification: Give people freedom of speech, assembly, and press in the workplace.
9.Downsize government! - Justification: It has become a special interest. 14% of the populace is employed by the Gov. If you consider each of thos individuals usually has a significant other who will vote to ensure they hold there position in government we are at 30%. Once it reaches 50% Were screwed!
10.Implement limited corporate charters. - Justification: Grant charters for limited periods to ensure a corporation is working in the best interest of the people.
11.Audit corporations depending on social impact. - Justification: Ensure corporations are working in the best interest of the people. Simplify the tax code and turn the IRS in to the IAS. Internal Audit Services.
12.Get rid of corporate person-hood!
The first demand should be more transperacy and coherance when it comes to the economy. Too many voices with their own agenda are getting the whole thing muddy. Bob Dylan says,.."The media has too much to lose by telling the truth."
http://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=CMbY87bB-qsCFUPt7Qod9HE8mQ
http://maplight.org/us-congress/guide/data/money?9gtype=search&9gkw=list%20of%20campaign%20donations&9gad=6213192521.1&9gag=1786513361&gclid=CP61oYbB-qsCFQFZ7AodcTF0jw
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/non-violence-evolution-by-paradigm-shift/
ultimately, you are not in a position and nobody is to brainstorm up mere demands. demands are stupid and infantile. complaints and then problem defintions and then detailed problem solutions are great. that requires time and homework to generate, not bong hits and then a brainstormed imagine yourself as emperor of the world Scrawl. this kind of thing does not help the movement, it just gives the powers that be ammo against us and prevents meaningful conversations which have depth or open source research and problem solving because you and everyone else imagines we can just skip all the steps and churn out "demands." Listen to the other people in the movement who are wisely saying NO to demands lists. I have demands, they are to the movement itself- thats where the real game is.
"Would you rather have war in this land? Do not confront me work with me...Civil unrest could very well lead to civil war... This list will prevent civil war.... Infantile, we are all infants in conciseness, which explains your poor choice of words.... You should be telling me how to make the list better not how it will never work."
? gawdoftruth (Santa Barbara, CA) 1 points 0 seconds ago
no, you need to drop making lists of demands. period. until you do open source research and science centered problem solving with other people, you have nothing to say worth repeating. your brain storming in ignorance. it sounds really really awesome to you- but for many people your tone def. Making demands is itself a sign of infantilism. period. Take responsibility and start working the problems in a deep and real way. I should not have to run through this further with you. This is a ludicrous sense of direction, it is not helping the movement and its not useful or meaningful for long term strategy in fact all it is is a giant set of red rings to give the pundits a clear target.
I don't want war. how i stop the war is to work the problems in a deep way and address the war. Not make demands. I'm an adult, not a seven year old, not a hostage taker, not a terrorist. I don't make demands, i communicate evolutionary truths. If ten thousand people follow my example we can have an evolution. If you run around like a bunch of punk alpha dominant azzholes, i promise you, all of your demands will lead to nothing but scorn and alienation.
but i can expect that we will find good solid means to that end instead of self sabotaging means to that end. Change your communication strategy. These are main political issues which you find to be critical. Now ask people to join you in reasearching them and working on these problems open source. You think you have the end product. instead you have a starting point. remove the "demands" from "demands" and replace with "these are the issues i want to discuss which seem critical to me." There you go. Thats the real process. "Demands " is itself what big Bruddah wants precisely because that makes us the ones holding wall street hostage. Domestic terrorism even when called non violent is still in essence domestic terrorism. Terrorists issue demands. Evolutionary patriots form think tanks.
Agreed, with time I can draft these into well defined legal jargon.
We need massive overhaul in the education dept too. It currently only works for a small percentage of the population. One of the major issues in America today is the average level of intelligence is far below that of other advanced nations. This is why our jobs are being sent overseas and immigrants are pouring in to take our jobs right here in our own cities.
Our 12 year education system also works to effectively prevent teenagers from being able to hold a full-time job to provide for a low-income family. Low income families in inner cities where the education standard is the lowest in the nation do not benefit from spending all of their teen years going to school. If the law did not require them to go to school they could go get full-time jobs to help provide income for their family. This would get them out of poverty in maybe one or two generations.
When a family is struggling to put food on the table earning money is more important than education. I spent several years in inner city schools and most of the time I was trying not to get beat up by bullies or robbed by kids with drug habits. Some days it was literally a fight for survival. As a result I did not get good grades and had to educate myself as much as possible when I wasn't at school. The school itself was more llike an asylum where the inmates were locked in rooms together for 7 hours a day. I would be much better off if I hadn't had to go through that.
I agree! Schools have become prisons and propaganda camps!
School does feel like an asylum. Except behind the scenes things are far less controlled and regulated. I remembered the building was falling apart, leaking. In another school fighting occurred several times a day.
My greatest difficulty was-indeed-learning with other students and the constant thriving distraction.
I tried to teach myself as much as possible as well. I wonder how many stories like this exist.
This best imaginary scenario in addition to the 'replacement' of the 12 year system is if the full-time job also educated you in multiple fields. In a perfect world.
To come up with the exact length of education is dependent of the Student and the Student's Faculties.
Your heart is in the right place and you present some good ideas, though some of them need a little work.
Let me help you out:
1) In any future bailout situations, distribute the money as low-interest loans and grants (to support industries we need more of, like Green energy and sustainable manufacturing) to private citizens - or collectives of workers - for start-ups and redistribute the assets of the bankrupt firms among them (and equitably, depending on a case-by-case basis). New business and new infrastructure create vast new economic resources, curb unemployment of the crashing firms, and stimulate the creation of new jobs.
2) A good idea. I'd strengthen that by adding incentives for small businesses (particularly new ones) and companies opting to run as worker-owned businesses and cooperatives, which, through fair revenue sharing inject more capital into the consumer end of the economy than corporatized hoarding.
3) If done immediately, this would crash the global economy. Importers use their profits to loan us enough money to survive. Manufacturing only accounts for 9-11% of our total employment. By encouraging worker-owned businesses, we can guarantee that manufacturers will stay here because collective-based companies operate more efficiently at a vastly lower cost. And worker-owners are not going to vote in favor of outsourcing their own jobs. And since worker-owners earn higher salaries than their corporate counterparts, they can afford to buy products at a slightly higher price, allowing us to gradually increase tariffs on foreign goods to the point that the playing field becomes level. But we shouldn't make importing impossible; that would destroy international cooperation, eroding our own ability to export goods. Another idea is to encourage a green energy infrastructure which would create millions of new jobs and provide the U.S. with a new export: energy, while weaning us off the Saudi oil teat (imported energy).
4&5) If the government weren't run by corporate lobbysists, taxation would be less of a concern for everyone. I would wait to see what the economic climate is after such a political change is implemented and public services that everyone uses are the primary recipient of tax dollars.
6) Definitely. Especially Capital Gains and overseas corporate shelters.
7) This isn't deregulation, actually. It's a redefinition of regulation, applying criminal standards which sounds like a good idea. However, to ensure that we continue to have breathable air, drinkable water, and soil that can grow food; industry should still be environmentally regulated. Especially if we focus on new technology to build a new manufacturing sector and a viable energy sector.
8) Freedom of speech, assembly, and press in the workplace - along with collectively protecting workers from abuse (the late 19th and early 20th century were really dark times for the American worker, who was ritually abused and suffered real harm at the hands of employers) - is the primary purpose of unions. If unions aren't performing these functions, then workerss need to have an easy way to drop the old one and enact a new one that better serves their interest. If this is too difficult a process, then it needs to be addressed politically; companies shouldn't be able to abuse people desperate for work and unions shouldn't have the power to abuse people desperate for representation.
That said, making most workers part-owners of the companies they work at would render most unions obsolete.
9) the government doesn't need to be downsized - it can barely handle its responsibilities now. instead, government should be made more efficient and government agencies should be made transparent and accountable. Also, if we can be rid of corporate lobbying, we'll also be rid of most of the corruption inherent in government and, with the corruption gone, the bureaucracy will be significantly diminished, because there will be no need for it.
10) That's a great idea. Charters have to be reviewed and approved for renewal. This would synergize very well with my idea of encouraging cooperative/worker-owned businesses. I like this a lot.
11) A nice idea. Make them transparent and accountable.
12) Definitely!
1) I dont think we should ever hand out assets or give bail outs. It leads to favoritism. If a company crashes dont bail them out, let small businesses purchase the assets and revitalize the sector through entrepreneurship and innovation. 2) I dont think we should advocate any particular business model. Let employees, business owners, and consumers, choose how to structure businesses. The market will choose.
3) Perhaps. If the point is to encourage entrepreneurship, innovation, and to increase local business then high tariffs are key.
4&5) With a high corporate tax we can fund social welfare. Property and income taxes are a claim to the property and income, or Life (as property and income represent the fruits of my life), therefore the Gov is able to use, or take, it as they please.
7) The FDA and EPA have historically been failures. They are bureaucracies open to manipulation. If you open the proper consumer and employee reporting channels we solve a majority of the issues. We can consolidate the EPA, IRS, and FDA. If the IAS is auditing on the basis of social impact then companies with the most complaints will be audited first and will absolutely be adulated every every X years. However, there should be a degree of autonomy. Granting the portions of the IAS that were once the EPA and FDA the ability to make unhampered investigations. They should also have local, state and federal offices so employees and consumers can make reports at the proper level of government. 8) We only need to give people there constitutional rights back (Life, Liberty, Free speech, etc, etc), even in the corporate setting. Unions only lead to special interest. 9) The government is bloated. While I agree the lack of corruptible channels will diminish the issue, it is bloated. It has over stepped its bounds and has shifted its notion of protection to control.
I would say that the best government is the one that simulates the natural occurrences of nature to the best of Our Collective Ability.
Wellness should play a part of a focused goal. Freedom from pain (as much as possible) and the Pursuit of Joy. Wellness would also be inclusive self control and regulation.
It would be nice if homes were standardized so that the systems produce more energy than the inhabitants used. Food, Water, Sun, Electric, Wind... Remember, there is no waste in Nature.
The Key in all of this and the easiest to amend is Education. With Education comes better Energy Production and Wellness. Generally that leads to a positive feedback loop.
I guess the ultimate demand for everyone to actively participate and think about what we are doing as a collective unit. All 100 Percent of it.
Of course it is one thing to say and another to be Active and Participating in the forwarding of this movement. Dollars are Dollars, People are Invaluable. That is it.
No price tag, no discounts. +++ A Parable Which May or May not be True:
It feels like one of those card games where the child who has purchased the right set of expensive cards can win the game in two moves by careful placement at the expense of Fair Play to the other Children. Especially to the Children who have JUST starting playing the game.
There is no way to keep up and you are lost unless you buy into the game.
Even then after buying yourself halfway into the game and learning the rules the major winners change the rules, ban the cards you have been collecting to counter strategies, and so on.
This parable actually applies more in the Games of the high end Earners (and Losers) of the Economic scale. Realistically the Top tries to mess with the Top in some kind of Alpha struggle and the Bottom are left with the Fall Out.
I am sure I can go on but others may have the forum. Hopefully I have added to Something where we can go Forward. That would be nice.