Forum Post: Paradise or Oblivion(documentary)
Posted 12 years ago on March 31, 2012, 12:40 p.m. EST by blackpanther6389
(39)
from Peoria, IL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphWsnhZ4Ag&feature=g-all-u&context=G25e95bcFAAAAAAAACAA
I'm sure some have heard about this before, but it's the Venus Project and this is an approach to the problems we have today. I feel this is the only way to go, but the problem is, it'll only start by you talking about it, Jacque is 95 years old and he has no power except in the knowledge he's given to us. He has no money or no influence in politics.
It's up to US to spread the word and get these ideas out there. Learn about it, I can almost guarantee that the concepts that jacque talks about can be applied to situations in your life.
This is a new documentary, but it is NOT the major motion that they are also working on.
It's a pleasant thought, but hardly the kind of thing we're going to get a world full of people, bent on killing each other, to agree on. If we were able to put aside our religious hatreds and racial prejudices it might have a chance. On the other hand if we were able to become better people we wouldn't need to worry about the economic system.
Even the believers have their own prejudices that doom it from the start. How long was it before the Venus project and the Zeitgeist Movement split over the details of their similar beliefs? It doesn't seem to be in our nature to accept different opinions and compromise.
So it would seem to me that you agree with this, but you don't think it would happen, is that correct?
More I think it's a dream, a beautiful dream, but not something that will work. You're talking about essentially throwing out every government and reorganizing 7 billion people and convince them to work together.
Even if you could wave a magic wand and get the basic organization done. It depends on good people to make it work, and we don't have a planet full of good people. It requires world wide cooperation. I don't think you can get the various GAs to agree on a specific agenda, how are you going to get christians, moslems, jews, hindus to work together? The proponents themselves argue over the details.
Also ChemLady, there is no plan of getting rid of government, only to boot out people in government and actually replacing the government with machines, helping to manage the earth and it's resources, WITHOUT telling people what to do which is somethin people sometimes tend to hallucinate into machine take-over type conspiracies.
Also you talk as if we don't know how to cooperate. Under certain conditions, you can get anyone to work together. Think about people of all kinds helped out during the 9/11 incident. Or just think about our history and why we've survived for so long. We have not survived purely because of competition. We have to mutually agree on things if things are to ever get done. Just think about the sciences and our instruments and how we measure things. We had to agree on that stuff, none of it was handed to us with easy instructions.
Well that's where you may have things mixed up. For one, it wouldn't take 7 billion people in the world to get the ball rolling. You would only need a handful of people relative to the whole population with the brains to work on such projects that the VP proposes. We're living on the backs of a handful of people now, I mean with people who's given us technology to move the species along, or even those who own the big corporations that you guys actually depend on to survive, unless of course you're a survivalist and you need no technologies or money to obtain what you need.
What you're saying is true I will agree on some points. It looks like it will take a collapse for people to become disillusioned and start demanding something new and when that time comes I hope people will be ready to take on the VP because there will be no other way.
Also, if we're gonna start attacking each other, then please take that elsewhere. I'd like to talk with anyone who objects or agrees with what I say or post on here. We're all human here aren't we?
I may disagree with people, but I hope nothing I say gives you the idea that it is a personal attack. You have a plan that looks good on paper, but nothing that offers proof it will work. Communism, Libertarian-Socialism, Capitalism all look good on paper.
At some point you will need to convince populations to change and that means amending constitutions. Does it also mean the use of force if one or more nations sitting on a needed resource decline to join the movement?
People have always cooperated when they saw benefit to themselves. Without proof what would encourage someone to risk a comfortable present for an uncertain future? As much as people complain in the United States a majority are content and secure now, why change? The issue of sustainability, unfortunately, doesn't move that many people to action.
It starts with talking. I don't think you're understanding that. And no I don't take anything as a personal attack =). I understand where you're coming from which is why I talk and I try to do it without attacking but of course it's hard nowadays since everything seems like an attack.
But back on the subject. The only thing you can do is know about it. You just said it sounds good so why the hell not talk about it lol? When we finally get funds to build the first city then people can actually see it work. That's all I'm saying I'm not telling you to just jump on the vp bandwagon and start waving banners and all that jazz. All I'm asking is that you take a few hours every so often and check out some of his lectures, he has stuff on behavior, depression, conflict resolution, many other topics. If you applied what he says to the real world and even your friends, you will find majority of the things he says to have some actual meaning. How does someone know a building will hold up before you put people and things inside of it? Do we agree that capitalism doesn't work? Who convinced people to jump onboard this fucking road to hell without having prior knowledge of this system working, and how lol?
Do you understand what I'm saying now?
Value have to be humane not the selfish.
Yes, agreed. How do we achieve that?
Once we know that it is not impossible to achieve that then we have to start to find out different ways to achieve that.For example we can give ' token of the public points of appreciation' to any one who does something beneficial for some body which shall later on be evaluated (for each and every body)to make a sort of a hierarchy which shall then be categorized into say 1000 parts with criminals at a lower ranks and those who perform better at their jobs or at social work at the top ranks.
you dont. Welcome to reality. People act in self interest. Always have. Always will.
Whats up with the handle?
Not true, this society breeds people who act in their own self-interest. Don't buy into the fluff.
Collectively we raise children who value money, status, possessions, beauty (but only a specific type). These kind of ideals permeate our culture, but it is a cultural thing, and it can change if we collectively decide its time to instill different values in young people.
I don't think its too late for older people either, but it starts within. It can be something as simple as ceasing to be a brand whore, finding your own style; but it sends a strong message to other people when you don't show any interest in their $200 pair of sweatshop sneakers.
I don't get why you're here then. What are you trying to accomplish through the occupy movement? The handle? as in the thread title? I thought it sounded good, is it inappropriate?
Not saying its not worth it to fight, but I dont think most realize the incredible mountain they are up against.
the fact that the idiots in this country are really going to vote for Obama or Romney is all the proof you need that this country may be screwed beyond repair.
I'd rather have an uphill battle than just watch what's happening lol. I'm only informing. I don't want to force anything, but I do feel compelled to defend and try to clear up any misunderstandings of the VP, provided that I'm not causing more confusion myself.
Just wanting to bump this because I find this to be highly important!
I found an interview that had me searching for a while:
http://www.trueactivist.com/a-conversation-with-conversation-jacque-fresco/#comment-19071
Pretty straightforward interview and easy to understand the concepts put forward in this video!
So we either adopt the Venus Project or Perish?
xD That's why I don't like the title. It sounds way to dualistic. These are far different times than back in the day. We could start wars and there wouldn't be that much damage to the environment. But the weapons are far more advance and destructive and people appear to be way more self-centered with no tools for evaluating the world accurately and so we have fixed notions of "good", "bad", "right", "wrong", etc. Too many absolutes we're dealing with when it's obvious there are no absolutes.
If you want me to answer yes or no. I'm sorry, but I can't. I'm not convinced though that we will survive based off of our current trends. Everyone's practically insane with notions of "fixing the monetary system and turning it into a non corrupt system". Money has to be gone, period. We don't need any more mediums in which can be used to manipulate variables and buy practically anything including people.
Marshall Brain has reached some similar conclusions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Z8TR4ToNs
Bam!
http://douglassocialcredit.com/ I think that Social Credit is by far a more workable idea than the Venus Project. What do you think?
I will check it out!!
Thanks. It also carries the weight of not being stereotypically regarded as part of that "fringe" movement, since it A. is an incredibly unexposed concept and B. It was come up with by an engineer from the Navy, in 1924 or so. Further links are: http://bleedingindebt.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit
its not social change that matters. its change in government behavior, corporate greed that needs changing. stay focused
Stay focused on what? The governments and corporations are just as much part of social change as any other aspect because after all, there are people inside.
Maybe I just misunderstood you though. Could you clarify what you mean please.
focused on uniting people to demand change in the behavior of the government, force change in laws that regulate the behavior of corporations. this doesnt require a change in society itself theres no hope in trying to change human nature.. but enough people together demanding that the way things are operating change to favor the majority instead of the few is a doable goal
You will likely want to get behind this :
http://sanders.enews.senate.gov/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=2100086255.557671.433&gen=1&mailing_linkid=49235
Truth support it. I sent this to facebook and twitter - can you also?
We need to communicate this kind of material far and wide.
how is it that congress does not enforce its own laws! this is why people have to take to the streets and protest!
It is also why the people need to lobby. Let our voices be heard. Protest is a good thing as long as there is a coherent message being delivered with it. Petitioning is Americas Lobby. The more we communicate the more they need to listen and act on those communications because of the fact that it will become undeniable if they do not that they are not legally fulfilling their job.
Are you a real member of the New Black Panther Party?
Haha no xD. I've been using this name since I was 15, the name came up playing DDR believe it or not =).
And I'm 24 now so that should give you an idea why I haven't really changed my name lol. DDR stands for Dance Dance Revolution btw, if you didn't know that =D.
I can understand the frustration with people here. This is coming from my perspective but the fact that everyone here has to deal with the sleep individuals who don't even think the Occupy movement is a good idea and remain ignorant to the troubles around us, because I have to deal with them as well. Here I am posting something that in turn would work to benefit EVERYONE and it's getting shot down. Why? I don't know.
The way I see it though. Any of the occupy protesters who instantly shoot this down are no different than the civilians who even reject the occupy movement. I come here as a friend. It doesn't help if you come in instantly with "It's not gonna work." Lol what am I supposed to do about that. I can't answer something that's stated as "It's not gonna work." How the hell do you guys answer such statements when regular joes on the street talk about the occupy protest that way?
As I see it now. There really is no solid direction in the occupy movement. Something beautiful happened when people took to the streets, but now what? At least with the Venus Project, everyone will have the same direction that would work to address the glaring issues of our times. What's so hard to understand about this concept? I need some help guys. Help me by talking about issues, not about your emotionally charged snap judgements about a given concept and you know nothing about it. Isn't that fair? Isn't this the main site for the occupy movement? This is the best place to go to alert people on a big scale.
Sooo, what kinds of questions do people have? I'm all ears, and eyes too lol xD.
LOL... Venus Project.,.. I havent read anything more ridiculous in the last 5 yrs.
xD the VP def sounds ridic at first, but as I began to question things more and I paid careful attention to people in relation to what Jacque talks about, I became more convinced that the proposals of the VP are actually possible. Now with that out of the way, what have you read about that, that makes it seem ridiculous to you?
Well as an engineer I can tell you that some of the systems they want to devise are not possible. As an mba with a particular love for econ I can tell you that their rbe is crap and untenable. The only people who support this thing r the barely literate ones.
My degree's in economics and I think what they propose is logical.
And each and every econ grad I have met (including my profs who have PhDs) think it's dog shit.
They can't think outside of what they've been conditioned to think. The UN seems to think it's a good idea. They're dedicated to sustainable development and it seems that their Agenda 21 program is very similar to the Venus Project. It's scary because if they get their way, this kind of society will be ran by the "elite." It would be better if the people were in control of it.
"They can't think outside of what they've been conditioned to think" - Yes I have heard that line too often from Zietards. Looks like only Zietards, most of whom barely have an education, are capable of thinking outside the box. And no the UN does not think it's a good idea. Please show me one press release by the UN where they categorically say it's a good idea. The UN may be a lot of things, but crazy it is not. FYI, I have worked with UN for some programs realated to the MDG.
I'm not a Zeitgeister. I did watch the movies and I liked what I saw of the Venus Project so I researched it more. I remembered some of the ideas from Buckminster Fuller. Are you familiar with the UN's Agenda 21 program? Also, the Venus Project has teamed up with Exemplar Zero which is affiliated with the UN.
I watched the movies too and I fell off my chair laughing. And the word 'research' is thrown around way too casually by Zietards. Googling up some pages and watching a few youtube videos does not count as research IMHO. As for the alleged 'teaming up' of VP and EZ, I don't see VP mentioned on EZ site either under Alliances or Advisory. So I am not sure what teaming up there is.
As for Agenda 21, it's a sustainability intiative wheres VP doesn't just present it's own wishful idea of sustainability but also talks about abolishing money and labor among other things. Big difference.
Ok, so why is it crap and untenable. The VP has brought more to the table of how this is possible than you have brought to the table saying how it isn't possible. I'm not doubting that it isn't possible but all the information I've gathered on VP has told me that it is possible and I've been researching for about a year now and not just vp but my own discourse in the world. So you need to bring me a years worth of research telling me how this isn't attainable. You gave me a paragraph of your self righteous talk of being an engineer lol.
I dont know where to begin. Right from RBE to the abolition of money (or a means of exchange and valuation of goods and services) to the idea of a grand central computer deciding how much to produce etc or all manual labor being done by machines and everyone gets everything for free utopia, all of it is flawed, mostly obvious flaws and some not to obvious. And I don't really need to give you years of research on this (not that I want to waste my life on such a useless endeavour) but if you read a little bit of history, economics and computing, you would come to the same conclusion. Lot of blog posts are available on why the whole VP thing is crap, would urge you to go through those. Everything that I can say has already been said. Yet some wierdos like to believe in that ZM/VP thing, their choice. Some people believe Elvis is alive while others believe that there was once a man born of virgin birth more than 2000 years ago and he could walk on water. Everyone is entitled to their own delusions.
Now that I can do somethin with.
Don't we already believe in a utopia? The fact that you think we can't break free of our ideologies now to me says that you have reached the pinnacle of thought. That you can't imagine a world without money because we've been around it for so long. That you can't imagine machines doing all of the drudgery work. That's utopic thinking right there in my opinion tell me how it isn't. The VP doesn't support shaky notions of a utopia. The vp is for an "emergent" culture. Meaning transportation, communication, entertainment, production, things of those natures will always be in a state of change or improvement, or both if necessary. What have we done to change or improve the conditions of NOW? We have done nothing and noone is continuing to do nothing. At least the VP approaches the problems with a fresh mind. Albert Einstein said you won't be able to solve problems with the same thinking that caused them. Does that not make sense? I've read plenty articles and seen plenty videos of people "debunking" the vp and they all say the same thing about it being a utopia or that it just won't work.
What I'm trying to say is that I don't know if it'll work, but it's sure a hell of a lot better than continuing on the path we're headed towards now which is towards oblivion. At least we can try this and see if it works. And with people thinking about the situation more clearly, perhaps more ideas will emerge. We are already in a state of transition so we're seeing a breakdown of the socio-economic system now. NOW is the time to actually do something about it. Looking back on history will do nothing but influence our choices in old habits of thought which is what we don't want. We don't want to look backwards, we want to look forwards. Does any of this make sense to you, or am I still speaking in cryptic? I had more to type but I'm pressed for time I'd like to continue this when I get more time and I get a response back from you.
The other thing with those ZM movies is the blatant distortion of truth or sometimes just plain incorrect info. As someone with a rather academic bent of mind, I believe in academic honesty. Dont see much of that in ZM.
Distortion of truth? Such as?
The one I can readily remember is what they said about derivatives. It was pure sensationalism. Also about 9/11 conspiracy etc etc.
I'm not regarding the videos as 100% true. But because there are a few exaggerated claims in the video, that makes the whole unreliable? If anything at least the videos make you aware of what's going on, on some level that you can do some more research yourself. But for someone wanting to do more. How much info is on the web about derivatives or 9/11? What would be the point of an endless quest for knowledge on the subject when you should be looking for causes for those things and what you can do to prevent another 9/11 from happening. We are not dimwits, but everyone seems to believe it by constantly saying that, "I'm aware of my trapped patterns of 'human nature' it can't be changed. I believe I'm a greed, selfish bastard so I will act like one".
While you're thinking that we are a victim of some fix'ed notion of "human nature", I'm out being the best person I can be without any thought of "greed", "self-centeredness". If I want to help others I have to at least "survive" does that mean everything I do has to be labeled "selfish" "or "self-centered"?
I've formulated my own opinions on 9/11 and such other things in the movie, and it was from doing my own research, but none of it is relevant to the discussion. What's important is that we address the conditions that make these issues/problems come about. And how to eliminate or alter the conditions so as to not happen again.
I think this next part is important
I think another problem people seem to have. Is that we're just gonna jump from point a to point b. How it works is we're in a transitional phase now because things are breaking down before us as you have seen with protests popping out all around the world addressing issues of human suffering. The VP is at the same time working to integrate the vp into our current socio-economic system until they eventually just blend and we arrive at the rbe. It's not a jump from one thing to the next. The VP is building a scientific/technical database of people to get to work when the vp gets the ok to start doing the survey and whatnot. The more people hear about the vp, the smoother the transition. People like myself who support and think the vp can work will talk to others about it, in hopes that they understand and spread the word as well. But I'm not banking on you guys getting it right away, I'll just keep moving. I do feel like that this website would be an ideal place to get many people on board for a smoother transition since OccupyWall St is like our Arab spring. People all over the world know about the vp already except America, this nation is the most sleep and I think it's because of how radical our culture is from the rest of the world.
Are any of these words getting through or is it all still cryptic for the most part?
tldr; distortion of truth or not, the movies at least address the problems plaguing our chance to thrive on this beautiful planet. Please read the last big paragraph about transitioning.
I'm doin the best I can, if you still don't understand me, please let me know. I want dialogue, not conflict...
I think we can agree to disagree. Don't see much of a point in discussing. I have never been able to convince any ZM/VP supporter that they are wrong and vice versa. I have nothing against you.
That's unfortunate. You made me believe that we were getting somewhere...
If you have anything to offer I'm more than willing to listen, I want to see change. You haven't given me anything to read about. All you've done so far is just put me down, but I understand. Whatever solutions you have, please send them my way so I can read about it.
Other than that, I won't waste your time any longer. Good luck in life monetarist.
Well another thing that I find common among all ZM/VP supporters is that whenever I contended that their so-called solution 'VP' isn't right, then always come back with "So what's your solution?". Thing is, I am too puny a person to propose solution for all of the world's problem (which is pretty much what VP attempts to do). I am not well read enough to know a sufficient bit about all those problems that the VP project (and ZM movies) just waltzes overs. My knowledge, by dint of my academic pedigree, is limited to Computing (that too mostly HPC and cluster computing), Management, microeconomics (and marketing), macroeconomics, maths and a little bit of finance. Even in these I am no expert. But I am smart enough to spot most of the flaws in VP when it comes to any of these areas.
So answer to your question if I have a solution? No I don't. I could however suggest solution to some smaller, much smaller, problems.
Also I don't like the way VP supporters (or Zeitards) use the word 'research'. Everyone there claims to have done their own 'research' and arrived at a conclusion. Frankly, call it arrogance, but I don't think people who do not have even a undergrad degree hardly know the significance of the word 'research'.
Sorry, if it seems I am trying to put you down. But I have been through similar discussions with so many people and it has always research an impasse. Once I thought I would write a blog post with point by point rebuttal of the movies but found it rather pointless.
So, no offense. Good luck bro.
You do bring up a good point my friend. I guess I do sound full of myself. Is it me, or is it the language I use?! Guess it's time for more introspection xD.
You must have slept through the (R)epelican't debates.
The Venus Project is much more doable........:)
I don't watch their debates. I have better things to do with my time, like trimming my nails and getting the weather review.
Well, see to it that's all that you do then.
You should stick to what you're good at.
Yeah I do and I make more money than u
Let's not insult one another here. We're all in the same boat so we better learn to work together lol. We all need the same thing. Clean air, clean water, food, shelter, a relevant education, and warmth and comfort although this last part is kinda optional.
Aye aye sir.