Forum Post: A corporation is a legal entity...
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 18, 2011, 10:16 p.m. EST by AtomicZ
(149)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
One solution would be the passage of new laws to strip all business of "Legal Entity" status under the law. Another solution along these same lines would be to make the individuals who run / own these monsters personally libel along with the board of directors and anyone directly acting under the corporate shells worldwide. And a third solution would be to go after corporations with criminal convictions [ which makes a corporation a FELON ] using the law to restrict FELONS from any participation in the political process here in America! peace AtomicZ...
We need to end "corporate personhood." Allowing these legal entities, who's only admitted purpose is to glean profits above all else (regardless of the externalities or other costs they are socializing) should not be given the same status as a flesh and blood American citizen. Right now they own the political process! If we don't do something they will just keep treating us and our children like their personal ATM machines.
I agree.
Mitt Romney: Corporations are Human. Supreme Court: Corporations have free speech rights like citizens.
Citizens face capital punishments.
Death penalty for Corporate Executives and Board Directors who commit Crimes against Society.
Deterrence: it works.
Any country operating on a fiat currency doesn't print it's own money. The money is created by the central bank, then LOANED to the government at INTEREST. It causes automatic public debt, and inflation. This is the means by which the super rich elite enslave whole nations. This is the reason the worlds economy is starting to collapse. The banksters have sucked the well almost dry. The last president to try printing silver backed money without interest debt was JFK. The one before that was Lincoln. not a coincidence.
I agree - there is shadow government here - it is the UBA UBA RICH!!! - they are not collectively connected however [ thus completely fractal in actions and thinking ] only a constitution amendment can change this dynamic! peace AtomicZ...
An Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America is needed; otherwise the Supreme Court will continue to rule that a corporation = person. Corporations can then demand same rights and protections as a person, while at the same time avoid responsibility as a person by invoking limited liability laws. How to fix it?
Human Worth Amendment:
All people are of equal worth an value in themselves, solely on the basis of being human-beings, unconditionally and unexceptionally.
A corporate entity, in and of itself, is not a person and, therefore, is not entitled to the same rights and protections afforded to a person as set forth in the Constitution of the United States of America.
B I N G O !!! peace AtomicZ...
We need the ability to incorporate dummy! It saves me a shitload of taxes!
I agree... we need the corporations - just not in the present form - this discussion is seeking ways to limit the political influence of corporations... Keeping the behemoths away from changing the laws in the favor of the rich [ which skews the playing field in their favor ] Some of the larger corporations have criminal records making them FELONS - the question here is about the criminal record of the corporation and the ability society now has to limit the participation of a FELON in the political process ... peace AtomicZ...
Noam Chomsky uses the term 'legal fiction.'
I like it - from Wikipedia: A LEGAL FICTION is a fact assumed or created by courts[1] which is then used in order to apply a legal rule which was not necessarily designed to be used in that way. For example, the rules of the United Kingdom Houses of Parliament specify that a Member of Parliament cannot resign from office, but since the law also states that a Member of Parliament who is appointed to a paid office of the Crown must either step down or stand for re-election, the effect of a resignation can be accomplished by appointment to such an office. The second rule is used to circumvent the first rule.
Legal fictions may be counterintuitive in the sense that one might not normally view a certain fact or idea as established in the course of everyday life, but they are preserved to advance public policy and preserve the rights of certain individuals and institutions. A common example of a legal fiction is a corporation, which is regarded in many jurisdictions as a 'person' that has many of the same legal rights and responsibilities as a natural person.
Legal fictions are mostly encountered under common law systems.
The term "legal fiction" is not usually used in a pejorative way, and has been likened to scaffolding around a building under construction."
Agreed.
We should pursue legislation that only allows contributions designed to influence an election (whether to a candidate or as a third party) to come from legitimate constituents.
Everyone else is trying to buy influence.
we should do this...
we should do that.
this is illegal.
that is illegal.
folks, if you want to hurt corporations, quit making your hard earned $$ part of their profits.
Barter / grow your own food / buy what you need in local thrift stores / buy a used bike and outfit it with pannier bags to haul stuff and give the car a long vacation.
if you keep feeding the evil monstor you want to bring down, it will never change....
stop buying new..............
Or create something else that the indocility stumpy money thinkers will gravitate to like cockroaches to an oil shale lease option to frack!!! What if we fix the corps and create a new legal way for the very very naughty who did this to form a squash club or a cricket club somewhere in PA to dance the night away [ distract em with monster crackers piled with caviar - lots of salt - magnums of pink sparkling Champagne - and a live band with castanets clicking to keep time to the ever increasing interest on the debt as it all goes supernova ] All I'm trying to say here is the rich are scared of OWS they want a break - vacation from "la corrida de toros" now consuming the very spot were they used to have a leisurely stroll before taking the pennies from grandma's 401k-upput. Distract em - come up from the rear - take the hill !!! This is a class war now !!! I want my country back!!! Agreed!!! peace AtomicZ...
the individual players are personally responsible in terms of crimes. Prosecutors often have a choice of prosecuting the players, the corp. or both under criminal laws. Yes, a corp. can have a "criminal record." and some do.
The justice department publishes guidelines for federal prosecutors on when to charge the company, when not. A major consideration is whether the prosecution of the company will destroy lots of jobs. They don't want to punish the whole community and put tons of people out of work.
There has been some controversial issues raised in several instances however, where companies have been sort of blackmailed by DOJ: Turn over your officers or we will come after the whole company. They avoid prosecution this way.
Anyway, short story is they can and have been convicted of crimes, but mostly they go after the individual leaders of the company.
There sure are a lot of corporations out there. It is the predominant capitalist institution, no doubt.
Amazing... I had no idea corps might have "criminal records" So here's a point I can make on this see if you agree? "If a felon tries to VOTE - influence and election - etc... isn't the FELON by law forbidden to do so? So why is it a FELON CORP is allowed to vote with $$$ and lobbying and the like??? peace AtomicZ...
Wow, that is so so so very interesting. I hadn't thought of that.
Felons are allowed to donate money but many can't vote. It is really very interesting
I do not understand this law at all - something smell like a RAT with continued access by felony convicted corporations in our government! peace AtomicZ...
I have no problem with corporations being considered "legal entities", not even if they are considered "persons" (so to speak), so long as it isn't arbitrary. The problem is it seems the laws allow "personhood" when it is convenient for corporations, and not when it's better for them not to be.
I think the big problem is that their millions in campaign donations are protected Free Speech
Why should we allow the laws to bestow "personhood"? The whole concept reeks of evading responsibilities. What is it that makes this a necessary tool for a business to want IT? It's like giving a kid a loaded gun because he wants to play cowboy!!! As you well know OWS would not have arrived at the foot of the bronze bull with a red flag if the whole freaking corporate process wasn't completely out of whack!!! You just do not bestow anything to any business that gives that business free reign to rape & pillage everything in it's path! Giving "personhood" is a crazy idea anyway [ who goes and makes something a person? that's just nuts ] ITS FREAKING ANTHROPOMORPHISM is what it is... peace AtomicZ...
First of all, I agree with you, we are on the same side. My point is just to create nuance. I am clarifying "legal entities" with "persons" with "person-hood".
Corporations are in essence an entity created to represent numerous individuals. In that sense it makes sense to give it a "legal entity" status because it represents a collection of people. In that sense it is an entity just like the NY Mets are an entity.
The problem is not that (well it is, but there is a bigger issue), the problem is when the NY Mets are treated as a human being. I think we are saying the same thing, but disagreeing on terms only.
But my specific point was that, forget the last part about anthropomorphism, even the notion of a legal entity is flawed, not on its face, but because the laws is arbitrary about it.
All things arbitrary... So am I to understand your position isn't concerned with the law as written [ favoring the corporations schadenfreude desires and mood - forgive me ] and I am reaching here... "legal entity" has a place in the law to shield the various represented individuals or "collection of people" ... OK - The shielding I can grasp [ people do not want to stick their necks out ] got that! What I see happening isn't concerned with the shielding of the "collection of people" from an attack on them as a "collection of people" but just the opposite! Allowing the corporate "legal entity" status to remain arbitrary is also affording a shield to the company to act with irrational fervid and love of all things $$$ to the absolute destruction of any society allowing such a system to feed / cloth / entertain / and send letter to grandma... peace AtomicZ...
No, what I'm saying is there is more than one issue. The fundamental issue is the recent SCOTUS case extending corporations as (in effect) "human beings". This is a major problem, and should be fought against.
Separately, another issue is the fact that corporations are a "legal entity". I don't necessarily think this a horrible idea SO LONG AS the entities are held responsibly. The problem is they aren't.
I was simply trying to show there is more than one issue, as it gets muddled sometimes.
OK got it thanks for hanging in there - I want ask you another question which has come up on this page... OK Are FELONS aloud to vote in a presidential election? OK I found this "The Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania ruled on December 26, 2000 that the Pennsylvania law prohibiting convicted felons from registering to vote for five years after their release from prison is unconstitutional" what is law now? Can this law be extended to the corps [ expanded to prevent a corporation with a criminal conviction or record from participation in any way in our government? Lobbying - giving $$$ etc... peace AtomicZ...
The SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States) has upheld that felons can indeed be inhibited from voting. It bases this on language in the 14th amendment.
Corporations can't vote so I'm not understanding why you are asking how that can be extended.
The intent of this law was to exclude felons from participation in the electoral process [ because they have broken federal law ] My question concerns the "participation" aspect of the law [ since the corp has been found guilty under the law "why is it still permitted to participate in the electoral process - pushing their candidate into office to influence and change federal laws in their favor ] this mucks with the process in a terrible way... peace AtomicZ...
I understand what you are suggesting, but as far as SCOTUS is concerned a felon can be inhibited from voting. I am unaware if it has ever ruled that the felon is inhibited from donating. Corporations don't vote so as far as that part is concerned it is irrelevant.
Corps vote with $$$ which is far reaching and completely undemocratic ... [ buying the electoral process leaves the very people asked to make a political decision in the dust ! It also insures the corporate backing preference when it comes to drafting new laws and policy decisions - completely upending the level playing field in favor of donor influenced bribery, extortion, cronyism, nepotism, patronage & graft - this is a corrupt arrangement, with all due respect to our founding piggies of course ] peace AtomicZ...
Sure, I agree with you, but you don't seem to be making logical sense. You were trying to connect a SCOTUS issue about the 14th amendment with election financing. They simply don't fit together. Should we curb election financing, and get corporate money out of our representative systems? Absolutely. But your attempt to curb it was lacking of logical application.
The point I want to make and the laws you are citing are in conflict by viewpoint alone and not the actuality of the problem. What I see and what I want to shed light on here is corporate corruption which occurs outside the law, is lawless and harms our society... When placed in context to the 14th amendment I believe the passage of Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 558 U.S. _ (2010) was an outright manipulation by the corporate powers that be on the SCOTUS. I will go further and say the granting of "personhood" began with the passage of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company, 118 U.S. 394 (1886) - was the beginning of all this mess and also a blatant manipulation by the then trusts and the like to expand violations against the moral citizenry without due process. peace AtomicZ...
The media spun the SCOTUS case as a new thing. Corps have had personhood for a very long time. The problem is the scenario: Their millions in campaign donations are Free Speech. We can't touch it, and if we can't touch it we can't have campaign finance reform, and we must have campaign finance reform, so we have to do something somehow.
Yes, I agree.
They have more rights than us, that's the main issue. Corporations can even kill--the term I use is James Bond Corporations.
They can poison our water and food and all they get is a small fine and a tax cut.
We should be giving more money to help with green innovation, but we waste money on nuclear power, power that could wreck the planet.
They get away with murder, they really actually do. No joke. They can and do get away with murder.
Or sweatshop labor. We ban sweatshops here, but they are allowed, by trade laws, to do it over there. Call it exporting pain.
I see your words... I read your words... I understand your frustration... the system is lurking in the darkness... I agree with you... They do this with laws / or in secret / the trick & the goal is to uncloak the darkness... I believe OWS is a first step of many to accomplish this ... peace AtomicZ...
Right on...and cap executive salaries.
I honestly think a better way to advance change with excessive executive salaries in to TAP em and not CAP em... peace AtomicZ...
What is tap them?
TAP em like beer keg... when the $$$ reaches into the stratosphere - everything in excess of a set amount goes to charity... or taxed or whatever - It's a relief valve on a pressure cooker kinda thing ... peace AtomicZ...
That is good. I like that.
CHEERS!!! peace AtomicZ...
Wish you could do that, just put a tap in and turn the spigot. Wouldn't that be lovely. Maybe it will happen. Wishes are a powerful thing.
If you like the beer tar imagery then there is a chance someone else will - which is the power you hold right now - have now - The trick is getting your message or this message which you have made you're own now - the trick is getting the words into the media's giant EYE... Cardboard signs - 1M flashing LED's over times square? HEY wait a minute - THINK ... OWS is getting RICH with donations and backers - WHY NOT HIRE A PR FIRM TO GET THIS VERY CONCEPT IN FRONT OF THE PEOPLE ? The freaking slots are going to car a drug corps now - THIS IS THE CORPS TURF!!! Take it over ... hummm wishes ... peace AtomicZ...
get republicans to vote yes on jobs bill-by any means necessary-power to the people!
I actually believe the breaking apart of the original bill might not be a bad idea. "Little by little" always works... it just does! The grand schemes are always too top heavy to get up off the ground without damaging something it was trying to protect... peace AtomicZ...
I think that while you're thinking about cracking down on corporations you should also think about how employee co-ops would be affected. You don't want to make a crackdown that the big companies weasel out of, but which makes it harder for employees organizing to take over their workplaces.
Good call - I believe the "for profit motive" is the unleashed monster here and not the co-op community. Whatever happens the community co-ops will benefit as both example of what can be achieved within the society we are now living in as well as a resource of some of the better people who are dedicated to a better future... We need to fix what is broken carefully - baby with the bathwater scenario included - I wish some one at the Harvard Law School would work on ending the corporate person-hood... "If wishes were horses..." peace AtomicZ...
Agreed, these are excellent ideas, but let's start the war against Injustice by starting our own banks to double the income of the Bottom 99% of Workers, for many more people will come to your side when you are proactive (for “new” Business & Government solutions), instead of reactive (against “old” Business & Government solutions), which is why what we most immediately need is a comprehensive “new” strategy that implements all our various socioeconomic demands at the same time, regardless of party, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 1% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves, and thus doubling our income from Bank Profits which are 40% of all Corporate Profits; that is, using a Focused Direct Democracy organized according to our current Occupations & Generations. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategically Weighted Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategically_weighted_policies_organizational_operating_structures_tactical_investment_procedures-448eo
Join http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/ because we need 100,000 “support clicks” at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Most importantly, remember, as cited in the first link, that as Bank Owner-Voters in your 1 of 48 "new" Business Investment Groups (or "new" Congressional Committees) you become the "new" Online Congress, and related “new” Businesses, REPLACING the "old" Congress, and related “old” Businesses, according to your current Occupations & Generations, called a Focused Direct Democracy.
Therefore, any Candidate (or Leader) therein, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet, a political opportunist, just like today; what's important is the STRATEGY – the sequence of steps – that the people organize themselves under in Military Internet Formation of their Individual Purchasing Power & Group Investment Power. In this, sequence is key, and if the correct mathematical sequence is followed then it results in doubling the income of the Bottom 99% of Workers from today's Bank Profits, which are 40% of all Corporate Profits.
Why? Because there are Natural Social Laws – in mathematical sequence – that are just like Natural Physical Laws, such as the Law of Gravity. You must follow those Natural Social Laws or the result will be Injustice, War, etc.
The FIRST step in Natural Social Law is to CONTROL the Banks as Bank Owner-Voters. If you do not, you will inevitably be UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED by the Top 1% Management System of Business & Government who have a Legitimate Profit Motive, just like you, to do so.
Consequently, you have no choice but to become Candidates (or Leaders) yourselves as Bank Owner-Voters according to your current Occupations & Generations.
So JOIN the 2nd link, and spread the word, so we can make 100,000 support clicks at AmericansElect.org when called for, at exactly the right time, by an e-mail from that group, in support of the above the bank-focused platform. If so, then you will see and feel how your goals can be accomplished within the above strategy as a “new” Candidate (or Leader) of your current Occupation & Generation.
Do not fight "fire with fire" here ... fight this fire with the collective awakening of a new generation who REFUSE to go quietly into the future... peace... AtomicZ...
Too much opportunity for the bar to milk everyone clean under that type of system.
Then END the opportunity - we need something better than we have ever see or heard of or held in our hand... we need a future - what is in place now it servitude / serfdom / the dumbing down of all society - it is not "just follow the money" this is something more, something honorable. A better way to live with each other... peace... AtomicZ...
So let us shut off the life to all Corporations, banks, stock brokers all of them. See where it leads us.
"Integrity is the essence of everything successful". R. Buckminster Fuller - To work this on society and to bring on the new ideas that will overwhelm the tyrannical usage of our countries financial system now in place - we all need to understand each other - that is where it leads us - to a new understanding ... peace... AtomicZ...
Big Sister: An Orwellian Twist
It took a mere letter from a US Senator Joe Liebermann to Amazon.com to kick WikiLeaks off Amazon’s servers. Other large mega corporation such as PayPal, Visa, MasterCard and Bank of America, followed suit and froze payments for WikiLeaks, starving it of a lifeline of money for survival, effectively strangling it. Imagine if that was your own web site or your business. When the US government froze Libyan accounts, it did not request a court of law to pass a ruling. It merely requested US banks to do so. Imagine if that was your bank account.
When the Founding Fathers created the Union and wrote the constitution, they saw government as the great threat to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. They instituted checks and balances on government. They were so fearful, they passed the 2nd Amendment so that the People could forcefully reclaim their rights from an errant Government.
Little, however, did the Founding Fathers foresee the rise of Big Businesses. The recent Supreme Court Citizen’s United ruling finding much of McCain-Feingold unconstitutional highlights the limited protections the Founding Fathers gave Americans from the crimes of private enterprises. Putting aside the incendiary question of whether what WikiLeaks did was right or wrong, the WikiLeaks strangulation shows that government can use private mega corporations to do what it cannot do through legal means. Like the slaying of Thomas Beckett, government claims deniability. It does not cost government money, they did not even have to pay Amazon, PayPal, Visa, MasterCard or Bank of America to do the deed. Even more so than government, Big Businesses wage a war that is the selfish interests of their executives. We are all familiar with principal-agent problems, but when the principal is the American public, the problems are magnified. Money votes for Big Businesses, not the American public; and when the government uses Big Business to do its nasty deeds, it is really an Orwellian twist. The oligopoly of Big Businesses has become Big Sister, and Big Sister is watching us.
Yes... this is scary... so much so it has scared millions into the streets all over the world... peace... AtomicZ...
Executive management and the BoD can be held personally liable. Next.
Which is the foot in the door to change the laws... peace... AtomicZ...
It has always been that way.
Would you know of any working laws anywhere on the planet where the business practices are in direct support to honor the civic duty and social trust set to protect "we the people"? It seems on a first look that the laws of wall street and the corporate structure that brought this toxic product to market [ wrecking 80 years of balance ] are now in direct opposition to the protection of "we the people" and further are set to self-destruct the system if tampered with? peace AtomicZ...
I don't understand what you are trying to ask me. Try it again in a coherent manner.
Would you know where on the planet is a financial system still functioning properly without emergency intervention to save it? Immune from the "great recession" peace AtomicZ...
Nothing in the world is perfect. If you're looking for a perfect, flawless scenario - just give up now. You'll never find it.
Your post here is perfect in quality or nature; it is complete! Which makes it a "flawless scenario in and of itself - So I guess I just found perfection here... This forum is dialogue - stimulation to believe in all things improbable to achieve all things possible ... peace AtomicZ...
hmm as i continue to read it appears that everyone on this post are extremely self-sacrificing..if atomicz above me was the owner of a business he would give it all back to the government to distibute amongst the populace...alas i say no i do not think that any successful business owner would do such a thing...there needs to be a seperation of the business and law makers thats a certainty but than why hasnt this march moved from wall street to D.C? Thats where you should be making a stand!! Legislation is the backbone of corporate power!!...let us not forget that all great were motivated by greed to some extent..
I actually like you're take here - and I agree! If I had a successful business I would not want to jeopardize it in any way from the success we are all here to enjoy... So Good Point - Why I find this page very interesting and what is going on here is a discussion about the corporate powers now in place that have taken us all to the brink of a 2nd depression... Something has come from all of this and I want to ask you as well as the rest of the writers here if there isn't some legal way to invoke the older laws preventing felons from voting in a presidential election? I know the laws has changed over the years but I do believe felons are restricted in some way from voting - participating in any way with the electoral process [ if this is TRUE ] than a corporation with the legal entity of a person would have a CRIMINAL RECORD - making the legal entity of the CORPORATION A FELON - which restricts it from voting / lobbying / participating in anyway - in the process of this country's election of any public official ... Is THIS THE FOOT IN THE DOOR ??? peace AtomicZ...