Forum Post: A BUSINESSMAN's list of Demands
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 18, 2011, 4:28 p.m. EST by TonyLanni
(291)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
The "us" versus "them," all businesses are bad attitude that some of us are pushing in the movement is a real problem. The vast majority of business people support the same reforms we are all talking about.
We want a fair and level playing field where people can't get advantage by buying off politicians and regulators.
We want real and fair free trade, where every company is held to the same health and safety, environmental, workers rights, etc. standards, and where business don't get unfair advatages from tariffs and subsidies.
We don't want people to be rewarded for unethical behavior and them to get ahead for it . We want to see such people punished. We want fair competition where real innovation is rewarded.
We want the government to do its job in regulating the system. We want them to prevent concentration of power and anti-competive behaviors. We want unfair business practices, misleading advertising, and things of that nature to be stopped. We want real, meaningful, and enforced regulations, to keep the system fair and honest.
We want the government to do its job protecting shared resources like the environment and providing necessary infrastructure like roads and power grids. We want the government to provide needed services like a healthy and stable healthcare system.
We want access to capital in a fair way, not based on who you know and who you pay off. We don't want to have to pay outrageous fees for this, just to get access to capital markets, through a few bankers who hold the keys to the kingdom.
All of this is true capitalism. 99% of the business people in the world want these things. 1% or less are unethical. Power is too concentrated. The ones in power are ruining the system for ALL of us, businesses, workers, government employees, the poor and unemployed, everyone. These things MUST be fixed. Being anti-corporation and anti-business does NOT serve our cause. We need to band together and fight for the real causes here.
I'd say most of us agree with you. Like you, I actually think that the kinds of reforms embodied in the New Deal and beginning to be championed by the more moderate liberals on here would most likely benefit small businesses. At the same time, leaving things as they are and championing nonsense like flat sales taxes, 9-9-9, etc. are actually problematic and dangerous for everyone including you.
I think that a lot of the reactions against business in general are the product of misdirected anger at what happened, especially considering that attempts at regulation were always lambasted as hurting small businesses and destructive behavior such as the Bush tax cuts and overall deregulation of markets were always touted as being done for small business owners' benefit. It's a line of crap, but people bought it for long enough that they accept the rationalization even if they disagree with the policy.
It is a cardinal rule that you never let others define who you are. OWS, at some point, needs to publish its demands. Or others will define OWS as they please. It may not be fair but it is the way it is. Draft a preliminary platform of core demands based on input from the group. More sure the list of demands are concrete and achievable. Keep it strictly non-partisan. Keep it simple.
Say it again louder please...
There is a difference between a corporation and a business. The individuals who run corporations have no real legal or economic risk involved in their actions. This is why a CEO can oversee the bankruptcy of a company, watch most of the employees lose their pensions, and walk away with millions in bonuses and his own retirement ensured. I think it is more than fair to be "anticorporate."
i disagree 100%. there is no difference between a business and a corporation. every business sometimes needs to make tough decisions. is executive compensation out of line? absolutely. are there real reforms there that should be imposed? without a doubt. this is all part of the concetration of power that needs to be dealt with. but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
There is a difference between business as in producing goods or delivering services and the business of trading businesses. Much of what happens Wallstreet, where real corruption takes place is the trade in businesses, the speculation in commodities, etc.
We need businesses, we need people that take the risk to provide us with products and services we want/need. It's also reasonable to be handsomely rewarded for starting a successful business.
I do have problems however with businesses that grow so big that they can manipulate the market and the political system. I think that's what people mean when using the word "corporation". It's not meant in the technical legal sense, but in the sense of influential behemoth.
i agree. there is a clear difference between the producers and the financiers. i do not consider the financiers to be businesses. they provide a necessary service of access to capital and liquidity. in a fair system, they aren't the problem either. but you'll notice some of my demands directly target them and the unfairness and corruption there.
You're legally incorrect. There is a huge legal difference between a business (a company) and a corporation. The owners of corporations are LEGALLY SEPARATED from the actions of the corporation. This is the problem, and the basis of nearly all the rotten behavior you see in corporate america. There are no real legal ramifications for corporate owners and/or executives, nor is their wealth really connected to how the corporation does. If I have a company and it fails, I can be economically ruined. A CEO who presides over a corporation failing can become wealthier. If I as a business owner dump nuclear waste in your backyard, I can be criminally prosecuted. A corporation cannot. It can receive fines (usually very small), and it can be assessed civil penalties (which it will then go on to fight in court appeals for 20 years, never resolving the problem). Do you get the difference? You don't see the problem with this?
it's not quite that simple LaughinWillow. People can and should be held accountable for their actions. That is clearly in my demands. People that perpetrate such actions can and are prosecuted inside corporations. The corporate limited liability does not extend that far. Can there be reforms? Definitely. Again, that's why that is in my series of demands. SOX was a weird and bungled step in that direction. It can be done in better ways, and more reform and regulations in this regard can be put in place. Being "anti-corporation" isn't and shouldn't be the main cause here. Let's focus on the ones that should be.
I'd agree. I personally think that the ONE demand we should have is immediate public funding of all elections, NOW. This is the most important issue of our time, I think. Because as it is, we've absolutely given the right to the wealthy to literally bribe and buy our "leaders." We no longer have representation. And it's blatant. If we don't get public funding of elections, we will NEVER have democracy again - EVER. How will a corporate-purchased politician ever pass legislation truly regulating corporations (or any other area the elite don't want regulated)? They won't. They can't.
agree 100%! and i don't think this blame can be put on corporations solely either. unions, special interest groups like AARP, foreign governments even, they are all guilty of buying politicians. we need serious reform here.
Very good.
I can get behind this.
updated title
the fair and free trade thread off of this one seems to be much more popular! guess that's because people like to argue, and most people seem to agree with this one.
more on free and fair trade, coming soon in a new post
This is important. We can't let the crooks and liars get away with symbolic monopoly of the words "business" and "free market". We can't let the abusers define criticizing the flaws of the system as attacking the system.
Capitalism isn't a way to make money. Capitalism isn't about greed. It's a system to organize the economic and productive activity of a society. It should be judged by how well and fairly it works to create wealth for everyone, and corrected in that direction.
Worker-led industry allows all of these things to operate privately by giving the rights of the shareholders - voting on the direction of the company and share profits - to the employees. No worker is going to vote to send thier job overseas. This also changes the diabolical and feudalistic structure of capital controlling the workforce, when we all know that is would benefiit the vast majority in numerous amount of ways if the work force controlled the capital...
If you like these demands, support my run for President! http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Tony-Lanni-for-President/121705151270841
I like your list for as far as the economic/business side of things goes, but there is more.
We need affordable health care. I would even go so far as to say: we need affordable health care without profit motif. The same applies to education.
Profit is a huge incentive and is misplaced when it comes to things we really have no choice in. Health care is mostly non-elective. Most people don't want to go to a doctor, but have to.
It is also misplaced (not accusing the author of the main post of this) to think that profit is the only motivation to do a job. There are plenty of jobs people love to do for other reasons than only money. Of course everyone wants to get paid decently, that's a necessity for survival, but there are many professions where the incentive do perform well is not financial, but intrinsic to the job itself.
Fortunately such non-profit incentives exist strongly in fields that in my opinion shouldn't be run for profit. There are plenty of doctors and nurses that work hard because they value their profession. The same applies to eduction.
Let's carve out some aspects of society where the market doesn't rule, because the market doesn't add anything.
There is enough room in the economy for those loving the marketplace.
profit is a very confused term. profit can mean lots of things. a business profits because someone thinks what they are selling is worth more in benfit than they are being charged for it. so in such a transaction both sides get a benefit above their costs, and so profit.
but there are certain areas that fall outside normal economics. the environment and shared resources is one. health care is another great example. a procedure is basically worthless if you don't need it and can be infitely valuable if you need it to save your life. i actually included both of these in the demands. the government has a role in a true capitalist system, and it is to deal with these areas. there are market mechanism that can work in these areas, too, like cap and trade proposals for emissions. but ultimately there needs to be good governmnetal regulation and control here and a fair system.
I guess we more or less agree on many things.
Another thought I'd like to inject:
Over the last 30 years the word "competition" has ruled our universe, and part of what we are facing now is unfair competition, where certain powerful players have shielded themselves from competition.
Sometimes competition works great, sometimes it stifles progress, because no one allows someone else to win.
Society not only functions by competition, but also be cooperation/collaboration. In fact, there is much more gain to be made by cooperation than by competition (and good cooperation punishes slackers just as much as competition would).
The 99% has heard through the media nothing but talk about competition, while the 1% has abused cooperation to the extent of cronyism.
I think we need to take back the conversation and start talking about cooperation, both in the positive sense, like how can we provide health care, education and a healthy environment for all citizens, but also talk about cooperation where none should exists (eg. between regulators and regulatees).
interesting point. we actually live in a world of coopetition these days. there are countless examples-- ford licenses toyota technology, apple is microsoft's biggest customer, etc. there are positive ways to talk about cooperation. anyone who has lived in Black Rock City knows this-- everyone cooperates to amazing degrees., shareing resources, but there is also healthy competition hidden in there with people wanting there stuff to be recognized and appreciated. I have to say that I think a great example of this can be seen on competitive reality shows. I just had this conversation after watching an episode of Project Runway where one designer was struggling because of an unforseen problem. This is a competitive show with a real prize at stake. One other contestant helped the struggling one, and said in the confessional interview something like, "I'd rather win based on whose design was better, not for a stupid problem." To me that's the ideal system. I want to sell more because my products are better. That's an advantage that is fair and sustainable. So I guess I'm all for coopetition! =)
We see a lot coopetition in the real world, but in the political world we hear nothing but competition. President Obama even introduced an educational program called "Race to the top".
It's especially this type of competition that is unhealthy. No matter how you slice or dice it, the top 1% will always consist of 1% of the population. Yet somehow popular (mass media) discourse expects us all to fight over a spot within those 1%, conveniently omitting the fact that upward mobility in the US is at an all time low.
It seems the competition gospel is very much aimed at the lower ranks of the societal ladder, while other rules apply to the upper ranks (a recurrent theme I'd say).
I think it's important to take back discourse and start talking about cooperation (then things can neatly balance out and result in something like coopetition).
I love it! Tony Lanni kicks ass!
Adding a demand. We want a fair political system, where money doesn't buy power.
Amen.
Well put.
Good List!!!
I can see you are not a good little capitalist. The people who are anti-business you can ignore. They are either young, idealistic, and inexperienced OR haven't learned much (tempted to call them dumb). Just ignore such commentary as it is mostly pure emotion and naivete. Given the fact that humans have been trading for 12 thousand years or more, it is clear that business is fundamental to human society. We would all prefer ethical behavior by business people but given the greed of so many, that is impossible. Some people just do not comprehend that humans have a wide spectrum of behavior and values and it is not all tied into capitalism. In a perfect world, there would be no exploitation and unfairness.
but i actually am a good little capitalist. i helped build a company. i was employee #4, and one of the main voices behind much of our strategy. today we have over 1,000 employees around the world. we advance ethical busniess practices, and have used that to grow. we operate ethically in every market we are in. we encourage our workers to be creative and empowered, and get further ahead because we do this. all of these things are good business practice. our employees are loyal, and whenever we post an opening we have far more applicants than we can ever take. we get the best and brightest people wherever we are because we treat them as real humans and real members of a team and a business and a cause. it confuses me why others don't do this. i think people like to cut corners to get ahead, but in a fair system, those people will always lose out to the real innovators and the people who treat each other with respect.
It was meant sarcastically as I can see you are a decent person. The slam was against the swine capitalist who are unethical, exploitative, and just bastards. There are workers who are the same way. What is your business, by the way. I need a job.
haha. gotcha. i see the sarcasm now. if only our language had a specific way of indicating sarcasm and tone in written pieces. lol. i'm in computer software. i used my real name on here, and am readily found on google, bing, facebook, etc. my company website is www.avepoint.com, though i am required out of ethics to say that the views i express are my own. we are a diverse company with many different perspectives and i am not representing the company here, but myself.