Forum Post: 101,000 Americans Die Every Year Because We Don't HAve France's Healthcare System
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 20, 2011, 1:59 p.m. EST by legalassistant
(164)
from New York, NY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
We compared trends in deaths considered amenable to health care before age seventy-five between 1997–98 and 2002–03 in the United States and in eighteen other industrialized countries. Such deaths account, on average, for 23 percent of total mortality under age seventy-five among males and 32 percent among females. The decline in amenable mortality in all countries averaged 16 percent over this period. The United States was an outlier, with a decline of only 4 percent. If the United States could reduce amenable mortality to the average rate achieved in the three top-performing countries, there would have been 101,000 fewer deaths per year by the end of the study period.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/27/1/58.full
Their system is also cheaper than ours...by a lot and yes, that is per person. http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/05/15/us-healthcare-usa-idUSN1430711120070515
And no surprise, medical costs not taxes are the leading contributor to bankruptcies in the US: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002934309004045
and the summary from CNN: http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/health/bankruptcy.medical.bills_1_medical-bills-bankruptcies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH75.7% had insurance at the onset of illness: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=664565
A nice overview of different healthcare models: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/models.html
Conservatrolls don't have a leg to stand on. We are going to RUN YOU DOWN. Splat!
it is eugenic genocide of the poor and when the GOP cut medicare you can add more to the death toll. Where is Shindler when you need him.
Eugenics is championed by the Democrats, in particular Planned Parenthood and Hillary Clinton. Do your research and quit being a Dem Tool.
citation needed
Liberals= dirt bag assholes. You fuckkng homo
That article makes good points on yet another aspect in our country that needs reformation.
Just put more Americans on anti depressants. They won't give a crap if a loved ones dies because of a lack of health care. : /
Splat, indeed!!!!! Thank you for this post!
finally the fcking trolls are gone. Fuck!
For real. Losers.
Our health system is as good as our roads and bridges
2002, American Society of Civil Engineers: US Infrastructure D-
2011, American Society of Civil Engineers: US Infrastructure D-
Americans will rise up an demand Justice, Equity, and the Right to Live.
health care is a basic human right. Our government does not deliver anything us in the 99%.
I have a question in a country that beleives in the notion of We the people we are so self centered imagine a country where your primary concern when you got ill was to get better and not how long you would be indebt after your time at the hospital that country would be the shining light we at times like to imagine we live in sad we as a nation should be ashamed of what we have become
I have a question in a country that beleives in the notion of We the people we are so self centered imagine a country where your primary concern when you got ill was to get better and not how long you would be indebt after your time at the hospital that country would be the shining light we at times like to imagine we live in sad we as a nation should be ashamed of what we have become
I dream of a world in which health care would operate on a free market. With advances in technology, most care and procedures would cost a pittance compared with what they cost now, or will cost with "universal healthcare". But i guess if you're obsessed with paying buildings full of people billions of dollars in order to have them tell you what kind of care you can and can not receive, there's no real way to make that "affordable".
Viruses, infectious disease, long distance high velocity travel.
These properties of modern life make a free market health insurance scheme untenable. There is no frontier to escape to. You don't get to choose to be a part of the social contract or not.
That is a travesty which I don't like any more than you do.
Bankruptcy, Cartels, Price Gouging, Monopolies, and complete loss of Liberty are apparently tenable in the properties of modern life. Most may not have the willpower, or the brains, to make a decision for themselves, but I can make any decision that I want. I'm exploring ways of not going down with the ship.
If you didn't like it, you'd do something about it. Everyone is willing to pay lip service to what they're unhappy about. Few are willing to make an attempt at a better way in their own lives.
By the way, I just consulted my building full of people and they said you're no longer eligible to receive care.
The 1% found a way out. I'm sure you can too.
I will or I won't. But I won't let others choose for me.
We did not ask to be born. We did not ask when, where or to whom we would be born. We all just got here.
A sinking ship with lifeboats is still a great example. In our case, there are more than enough lifeboats and time to put everyone on one, but individualists are clawing their way to the top and taking a whole boat for themselves just in-case they need it.
That has to stop.
1st paragraph- I agree.
2nd paragraph- There aren't enough lifeboats. At least, it doesn't appear to me like there are. Even if there were, most people don't really seem interested in a lifeboat conversation, let alone getting in one (changing the way they live). You can lead a horse to water..
3rd paragraph- I disagree. At what point do we decide that everyone doesn't have to go down with the ship? Should the whole city get destroyed? The whole state? The whole nation? The whole continent? Or how about we just destroy the whole planet, would that be enough? The people who want to live unsustainably should go right ahead and live unsustainably and see what that's like. If I have no right to tell them to quit living unsustainably, they have no right to tell me that I need to go down with them.
If you understand the first paragraph, then you understand that outside of my family and god, nobody has a right on my life, and I have a right on nobody else's.
"the state of being bound by or subjected to some external power or control."
That's the definition of bondage, which is the definition of slavery. Get it? I'm not saying that I think an absence of government is practical, but certainly, a reduction in slavery is.
right on the money, here.
101,000 americans die every year because the government subsidizes the sugar industry.
HOLY SHIT a rational comment amist the stream of manure from the right.
yeah. Wish I knew how to downvote posts. Gee whiz. A little filtering by OWS would be nice.
and you must be a right wing Nazi zeolot
splat
America lives like Romans the greed for money that is why we are where we are now. We are the 99% and we must care and fend for ourselves. Why are we asking government for help? They are sick and deranged and they believe we are naive and foolish. The only way the 1% will go down is when they can't make MONEY from the 99%! We Must Take Control of all resources fuck fighting the government and wall street. We have to join together and ignore them and refuse them and let them go poor. Our fight is to fight for for the 99% to really be what they say they are wanting true freedom and care. If that's true then we can make all of our dreams come true united. If we empty our bank accounts, stop paying rents and taxes and find ways to live without government and corporate levees we will stop the greed! What is the government going to do arrest us? Seriously arrest millions of people well that'll be great free rent, food health care and all shit we should all be fucking criminals then! Live a better life! 99% needs 100% unity!
well, we can't coexist with the system the way it is. We either need to subjugate it, or leave. We can't just form a big Waco camp. We need to rip the cancer out by the roots so that it never comes after us again. We need to put specific safeguards in place. The constitution needs to be purged of Madisonian ideals, or scrapped. We need the US to become signatories to self-executing international law.
Those ideals are shared by us all. However in Monopoly did you ever win when you landed on the hotels and lands that were owned? Answer is no. In Monopoly did you ever think if you didn't land on those properties you could still play the game? Answer is yes. My friend we need to play around the rules if we are going to make things change. Because demanding change from wealthy doers is like me begging for a raise and getting a .25 and told to ask again next year. Change starts from within we must change first then government will have no choice but to change.
well fucking said
I want to see how much they spend per person. "Their system is also cheaper than ours...by alot" did you adjust for the size of populations? The US is 6 times the size of France.
yes, That is a per person comparison. Hard to believe, right? Welcome to the 99%, Comrade.
Hmm I actually believe you I am just a skeptic of all stats. I bookmarked the report for further study.
I agree and it is just plain pure greed and selfishness. There was another study a few years ago that tracked childhood deaths in the USA from preventable and treatable diseases.
I expected the poorest states in the US would have the highest rates but it didn't work out that way. In the report some of the poorest states did well while some of the richest states with the top academic hospitals were on the top of the list with the highest deaths.
People tried to rationalize it, some unidentified flaw in the "system" But it isn't that. It is that the states doing better simply had kinder people. The richest ones were full of ambitious professionals wanting to get ahead. It is just greed. No excuse.
The irony is that our right to lifers do not support it. Hypocrisy in America is legendary.
THANK YOU for posting these. SHOCKING figures indeed!
I heard that America is the ONLY country in the West that does NOT have a universal healthcare system. And WHY this astonishing anomaly? Because of the greed of the 1% and their puppets in Washington.
"Obamacare" constitues a very poor compromise, that will impoverish America and not even cover everyone.
OWS must demand the PUBLIC OPTION, as they have in all Western countries, I believe.
The tyranny of the 1% must end!
I think our public option should be better than the one in France, just like our military is better than anyone else's.
This is America, afterall. We have more resources and our universities are the best. Once we rip out, the parasites that are sucking us dry, we can achieve so much.
1 - "Our military is better than anyone else's." Pardon? It is BLOATED, draining our nation's scarce resources.
The many documentaries I have seen about the type of training - I prefer to call it "A PROCESS OF DEHUMANIZATION" - that our soldiers receive, have convinced me that it is a crime against the humanity of these young people and the "image of God" inside them
No wonder so many of our military develop severe mental problems, even those who never see actual combat.
2 - "This is America, afterall. We have more resources and our universities are the best." That sounds so naievely jingoistic... "America is DA BEST in every way!!!! That kind of George W. Bush thinking is so "passé". Granted, our universities used to be among the world's best.... but they are going downhill very fast because dwindling resources are being funnelled into stupid wars!!! Do you know what brought down the powerful British Empire? TWO STUPID wars that brought it to the brink of bankruptcy. Sound familiar?
3 - As for your last point, "Once we rip out the parasites that are sucking us dry, we can achieve so much", I completely concur.
Totally with you on the entire rant. I love bringing up the military because it demolishes the idea that we can't spend government money at anything. It is essentially a socialist work program, an employer of last resort. If we adopted France's healthcare system, AND cut the military by 80%, we could go very far towards creating a better world. But we need to make sure those GIs don't just become unemployed. There will need to be a peaceful employer of last resort.
I appreciate your patience with my rant... I need a nap! :)
I get emotional when talking about our military because I really feel for those young soldiers whose souls we destroy... NO WONDER the suicide rate in the military is so high!
"America's soul has become poisoned", wrote Martin Luther King and he was so right. I feel very grateful for OWS, because I sense that they are leading us on a path of collective healing.
You my friend are a complete fucking queer bait. Go staick your finer up your ass and rotate. you are a disfrace
You know whats even more shocking George Bush does not even agree that France is the greatest place on Earth and that French Bread is the best bread.
all the great inventors the ones who were smart like bill gates have brunette white wives. and were white the blond women do not usually survive in hard times and make horrible decisions concerning everyone else get rid of the blond women and the jews and the gays helen of troy, paris the fag, braveheart, the blond clan, look at the way africans are still living. you;d think they would have left by now, or tried to build better homes, plumbing, and achieve better medical care.
why are we still feeding these people because they are dumb like blondes and the 1% want them for slaves. they dont think. they just say whatever dumb
There are so many neglected factors in these studies... they neglect to mention that Germans, even with the best educations, do not make what an American makes. They neglect to mention that tax rates are much higher and that their income is more heavily impacted. They neglect to mention that in Germany even a healthcare professional who works in a hospital can not get an appointment for a rheumatologist. It's all just so slanted...
As one British doctor said, we are paid fine. We live well. We don't need yet another BMW. The doctors are living upper middle class lives under national health care, paying the higher taxes it takes to pay it.
The bankruptcy courts in the USA are jam packed with working couples who were doing fine until they got buried under medical debt. I know because I review the cases.
How much money do you really really need, betuadollar? There are plenty of rich people in Europe. If you need to be that rich there are ways to do it under nationalized health care. Have a heart for peet's sake
I have a niece that's in medical school... many people have nieces that are in medical school. For the poor person, the working class, the middle class, there are but just so many opportunities, just so many avenues to wealth. I do not want to deny them this path. It's a mute point - in a free country we will never outlaw private enterprise... we will never be able to deny the doctor the right to practice freely, the rich will have their doctors just as they do now. And those on single-payer will be left with the derelicts willing to settle for 120k a year. In Britain, there has always been much talk of "rights" but they have no Constitution to this very day, there are no "enumerated" rights. Worse, they are a pusillanimous people, possessed of an ingrained deference to those of authority. The same is true of the Germans. Talk to them... ask them. Discus healthcare with them.
That's not to say we don't have a problem, we do have a problem and it needs to be addressed.
You're a little preachy towards me, as if I am poor by my own ignorance of the pathways to prosperity in this country, rather than a middle class person, born of an upper middle class family, educated, rendered destitute through no fault of my own. I have nothing against capitalism. But I have a lot against corporate domination of domestic and foreign policy. Also, the notion that a mix of public and private is some sort a heresy is ridiculous. We always have had both.
Medical care, if you haven 't noticed, is out of sight cost wise and there is no reason for it but unbridled, unregulated, predatory greed. It is not because the quality is so good that it is more expensive. The selfish few have made themselves so few and so exclusive that now they are facing a popular uprising. Bottom line
True socialism already exists in the form of combined defense, policing, public education, care for the infirm, disable, and elderly. And in fact, no society in the world can survive with out some level of combined effort. I do NOT support the corporatocracy of our government. But I also recognize that government is intended to serve a dual purpose in the promotion of prosperity - it has a responsibility to support us in the effort to import wealth. Our only other option is to become a completely isolated, and entirely self sufficient society. This would severely limit us in the quest for knowledge and the quest for knowledge is evolutionary. Isolationism was not in the cards of our history - wealth was imported in every manner possible.
Healthcare costs are out of control... but asking the tax payer to provide it without even addressing the issue of WHY it's so expensive is irrational. Single payer is not fiscally possible unless we simply print up money and hand it to everyone... but that would entirely collapse not just the monetary system but all economic means. No one would have the ability to obtain anything.
Believe me, any good national health care plan would certainly address runaway costs.
As for isolationism, I think it is a bit of a myth.
As for government obligation as to business interests, I agree but formed around a core of justice. Government is not supposed to be single mindedly focused on one area of interest. A balance of interests, it is government afterall, not the offices of Goldman Sachs. We practically have a corporatocracy, in effect, if not in fact.
Obamacare did not even attempt to address the issue of runaway costs (except to say, we're going to reduce care to the elderly). We can take this a step further - there has not been so much as even a discussion of addressing runaway costs. None at all. And in light of all the corruption, waste, and mismanagement at all levels of government, I think it would very foolish to entrust them with a budget and machine that would require untold trillions. And consider that the very fact that if the care is free... it will introduce such measures as "preventative medicine" which, let's face it, involves little more than the repeated medical testing of individuals who are essential healthy, and a tremendous increase in frivolous care, as people go to the doctor for the slightest discomfort.
The untold trillions, by the way, can very easily be statistically estimated or approximated. The number is unaffordable.
Isolationism is not a myth - look at China. I'm saying it's not possible for an America but that's the only way we can live in country that simply prints money to satisfy every need.
I believe this is a corporatocracy. But if it serves promote an overall prosperity that is not necessarily an evil. The divide has developed primarily due to unemployment and the increased "cost of living." These are issues we can address.
I agree that republicans can not be trusted with the budget. Everytinme they get it int heir hands they run up deficits giving handouts to c orporate interests. BUt I don't support the notion of turning the budget over to private hands to manage. What choice do we have? Government budget has to be in the hands of our elected rereseentatives.
Preventative care means a lot of things, including just getting a yearly check up. I think your image of it is fear based and not realistic. Getting a yearly check up keeps costs way down.
You so much as blink at an emergency room where I live and the meter is already at a thousand dollars, That's about the minimum now. It is breathtaking. That is where people without health insurance and too poor to pay 2oo doctor visits end up when their home remedies don't work. They are not weak people they are tough people. They are way tougher than you think.
The most basic preventive care is getting yearly checkups, as well as eating right and working out. Having less stress helps too, and the stress of knowing you are uninsured is no picnic.
it's mostly administrative costs associated with the private system.
Citation needed
There's a very peculiar thing about citations... If you look to the European representative, as the spokesman of a particular people, you will often get an "Everything's great over here" message. You need to take it to the people, ask them how they feel, because it's the only way you're going to get an accurate assessment, and that's exactly what I do. Citations then are somewhat difficult to produce. Let me put it another way, and I've been saying this for yeas - you want to know something, take it to the source. Don't rely on third party or hearsay - take it to the source.
Citations: You want me to post every bankruptcy case number from medical debt I have viewed in the last few years? It would take me hours. And there are so many, there is no need. Any member of the public can review bankruptcy cases. Go down to the bankruptcy courts and look, or get a PACER Id/acct and do it online.
As for taking it to the people, well, that's what one British doctor said, first hand.
Single-payer is not the answer... and neither is national health insurance. We need to contain costs... as in let the market seek its own balance.
Already proven completely ineffective at achieving this. You are dreaming. Almost no one anywhere, including in government remotely agrees with this solution. It is laughable.
Well, then why don't you contribute the one million plus that it will cost to cover my health concerns over my lifetime? Because that is the reality we are dealing with.
Well, what's your solution? Market seeding its own balance means lots of people dying needlessly, simple as that. Are you comfortable with that? don't say it isn't true because I know it is.
I don't believe we are the only developed country not doing this because we of all peoples secretly know that it doesn't work
We have to let the market seek its own level.. But there are measures that we can take to help it along.
okay. Take it to the source then.
Can you break that down with some more specific data? I'd like a better look, for example, at the demographics. And let's face it, America's drug culture has had a serious impact on mortality at all levels, a fact that is often overlooked. So I think I want more specific data, whatcha got?
Well, there must be some mitigating circumstance. It can't just be that the free market failed. Right?
No... what happened is that science and technology have created a healthcare Maserati that very few can afford. We stopped paying medical bills directly over half a century ago, with the introduction of "group plans," offered by employers as an incentive to employment but even with the strength of pooled resources, the employers can no longer afford these group plans. This is a multifaceted problem because the environment - a shortage of skilled labor - that led employers to create such incentives has all but evaporated. And it's not because we are less industrialized society or economy - it's because manufacturers have moved their engineering and production facilities overseas. We no longer have the shortage of labor that at one time placed a value on American labor that was as much as seven times the typical European wage (this was colonial America). But there is more... we are also paying higher taxes which further limits disposable income, placing further constraints on those who can not afford healthcare insurance.
With a single-payer system there is one huge consideration that few even stop to think about, and that is this - we are a nation of 300 mil plus and growing. This is much larger population than that of say, a Germany, or an England. Do we have the tax base to pay the bill which must essentially provide the very best in care for all, potentially millions per individual over the course of a lifetime, or be viewed as prejudicial? And the answer is a definite no. Geez, a significant portion of our population is either unemployed or underemployed... which triples the cost for those that fall into the bracket of tax or revenue producing citizens.
Maserati! I can't afford basic care. Talk about taking it to the people. Who do you think you are talking to, aliens?
Years ago a woman had a baby, she had it at home... the final bill was $20. to a doctor and that was barely affordable. Now that cost is 35,000 plus. All I'm saying is that in the pursuit of better healthcare, we have directed science and technology to build a medical machine that is so highly advanced that few can afford it. It's a Maserati... the price of healthcare has far outstripped the average ability to pay. (Maybe this is the wrong slant, maybe it's just a Ford with a Maserati price tag, but either way... just saying) There's also other issues... the cost of education... a general disregard of the Hippocratic oath, etc. Doctors have always been esteemed, always been elitists, but I kinda like that... because I see it as a possible path of wealth available to all who are willing, in a "free" country, to make the journey.
All I'm saying is that there is a reason healthcare is unaffordable... and I am only speaking to direct costs and not insurance which is another whole matter.
Some people like general suffering, or at least have quite a tolerance for it, if they can see a chance for personal advancement in it. Suffering does not cause some to pause. Some feel an obligation to their fellow countrymen. This nation became great because people who share your philosophy have been held in check from time to time when conditions were rendered unlivable by it, as they have now.
Among the worst of the bunch are some of the worst social climbers.
That's not true at all... single - payer is a fiscal impossibility in light of our increased population growth. And I prefer to approach the problem with ideas that are actually feasible.
Market control of population growth. Your solution is let them die. Attrition.
There is a reason we don't leave wars to market forces. well supposedly don't. Shall we do that too? How about justice in general, should we dismantle all the institutions that make a democracy?
Why don't we just have a Mad Max country,
The idea that all we need to govern comes out of a wall street playbook is false.
No, I think you misunderstand - in light of population growth which will one day in the not too distant future approach 700 million plus in this country, single-payer is entirely unaffordable - it's a fiscal impossibility.
In 1810, the median age was 25. What is it today? Couple longer life with the decrease in infant mortality, add unlimited immigration, and we have a population that has very rapidly outgrown it's economic viability.
The European method is going to fail. It's a fiscal impossibility unless healthcare is so diminished as to be virtually nonexistent. I want to deal in reality.
if you would finally read about this, it is widely acepted and patently obvious that we have far worse health outcomes than Europe even though we pay more per person.
Where does the money go? Free market insurance administrative costs.
Did you ever stop to consider that perhaps the reason our infant mortality rates were so high is because so many mothers are high today? This is a drug infested culture that has allowed itself to be decimated, and it definitely impacts statistics. I think you mentioned that we "share" resources.... but... to expect or demand a share of the pie, when you fail to contribute to that pie, is criminal. You become a thief because you are literally taking the food off someone else's table. Taxes are slavery, in the sense that others literally own a portion of our labor. Do you really think that Americans want to be further enslaved so that we can provide for others that we don't even know, many of whom are not even of this country? We will never have single payer in this country unless spending is tremendously reduced, and we can't command the world, or its market, if we do that.
citation needed
leading cause of bankruptcy is medical costs. not taxes.
Absolutely... but when the average per capita income is say, 30K, how can you expect people to pay 15 for a family plan?
Simple. They will pay zero instead of 15.
We're speaking to two different sides of this equation - you are speaking of the cost to the individual, I am speaking of operating cost. Healthcare doesn't fall from the sky and land on our heads, there's an associated expense, an operating budget. Americans cannot afford the bill, especially in light of illegal immigration that requires that we provide this service to all third world countries.
again, the thirdworld country known as the USA has many of its citizens taking jobs in Europe. Their healthcare still beats ours by every metric imaginable.
The fact that the US is larger than any European nation only means we will have a larger pool in any national insurance scheme.
A larger pool yes... but that doesn't equate to more revenue, especially in light of illegal labor...
newsflash
Europe has illegal labor too. They are called Americans! Every once in a while it even shows up on Craigslist.
I know, I have looked for illegal work in Europe. You can get jobs plastering and doing kitchen improvement for other wealthy 1%-ers who own places in the South of France that they never visit.
Best part is, some countries let you use their healthcare system, no questions asked. If they give you a problem in France, you just shoot on over the UK.
I don't know if your approach is a very practical one, especially if one has a family.
It also means we have a much larger pool of unemployed and underemployed, which appears to be growing as we speak.
Addressing these problems is not rocket science. There are no shortage of solutions, just a surplus of obstacles. There is no reason the US cannot accomplish what the rest of the West has accomplished in terms of health outcomes.
I agree with you.
Well, let's just suppose... that to start with... we concentrated on reduced spending instead of incurring more. I'm not talking about taking life support from the people... I'm talking about all that we waste in creating more favorable market conditions for our international corporations. We achieve this through any variety of ways, and it's very costly (to the tax payer). Let's redefine the way insurance companies are permitted to do business - they're not insurance companies any more - they're investment banks. They market one sole commodity and that is money. And let's create more competition in the insurance industry. Why should three insurance companies hold the monopoly on all of the northeast? And let's let the market seek it's own level.
You know, I see this effort to reduce spending through reductions in medicare, social security, etc... as but mere manipulation. They want us to buy into increased spending... why? Well, because these international bankers that own our debt have over extended themselves so much, that they are just barely holding their own. They have to increase the money supply... with interest.
Yes, as long as the underlying structure of our laws does not explicitly enough curtail influence of organized deep pockets, we will not have a real healthcare system, like France et al.
Glad we agree.
Move to France. Really. They live on loaves of bread and espresso. Their fridges are half the size of yours, and why? Well, because there's no need of a bigger refrigerator. They're enslaved...
I see.
Hopefully we can get the military to help us.
Move to France then!
Why doesn't Bank of America move to France and ask it to insure its downgraded derivatives? Why doesn't corporate america lean on foreign governments instead of ours, since in no other way do they feel obligated to throw their fate in with America?
They don't have too, they r rich!
Oh? Then why did they tell the FDIC to insure their trillions of crappy derivatives this week?
We don't want to hear it, really. Rich, weak, whiny and traitors
I see what you are saying....but I think the OWS protesters r missing one part of the bigger picture....aliens.....UFO's.....it's really about rich people being aliens and wanting to take and keep all he money because it's food to them not money.
Traitors. Weak, whiny traitors.
Thanks, I do what I cab for the "little people"
Try loving your country
I do, I go to work everyday to help keep the economy going. I pay my bills and ask no one for help in doing so. I take responsibility for my own actions and don't blame others if things don't work out for me. I provide for my family on my own not with the help of others. I don't take handouts.
And yet you support destruction at home for even the most frivolous corporate demand
Corporations exist because people use them. If you don't like corporate greed stop using them. If banks r to blame stop using them. If government is to blame run for office and make changes.
Obviously that is not a realistic notion. Corporations do business in essential goods. Are you here to think a little harder? It would be nice if you would. Self-examination is important. If you are against something for no real reason and haven't really ever thought about it maybe you should stop and think about it.
I can't, so I'm gonna make us all live there. You'll survive it, I'm sure. If you don't like it move to Rwanda.
Anybody else notice that "legalassistant" is proposing we use France's healthcare system... MEANWHILE
Also in the headlines: Europe facing risk of a currency crash, and "saving the Euro could bankrupt France."
Their healthcare system is cheaper than ours.
EDIT: confirmed
you still there?