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Forum Post: What would Jesus say about OccupyWallSt

Posted 3 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 2:55 p.m. EST by Matthias (1055)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Jesus said you cannot serve both God and riches.

The love of money is a root of all evil.

God has commanded not to take interest on debt. He has commanded to release debt every seven years. He has commanded to redistribute basic wealth (land) every 50 years.

But the governments by and large do not obey Him. Monarchies, communists and also democracies. Repend in case you have also refused to accept Him as Lord and as King of Kings. Jesus is the true hope of the world. The prophecy is that He will teach the nations peace and they will turn their swords into plowshares. Then no nation will raise up and wage war against another nation.

How long will the world refuse to follow Him. Humans are corrupt and no matter what form of govenrment they will create they will ruin it, exploit it and forget about the cause of the poor.

Communism has failed. Capitalism has failed. Socialism has failed. Monarchies have failed.

How long do you want to be ignorant. Learn from Christ and the world will learn peace and righteousness. Christ is the true advocate of the poor.

Wake up! Stand up for the true King of Kings of the world. Jesus Christ!

What is wrong with His life, his teaching? Hasn't He said, blessed are the poor and woe to you rich. Hasn't He said to sell whatever you have and give it to the poor? Has He lived in mansions or has He shared the simple life of Main Street. He is the true hope. You are struggling for a message.

The message is there. It is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. This kingdom is a political one as well. But humans have rejected it. But it is coming. The prophecy is clear. The Harlot Babylon is fallen, and the Kings will mourn, the traders will mourn because no one will buy their stuff anymore, because God has taken revenge against the Harlot which has corrupted the governments.

OccupyWall street wake up and see the true Helper for all those who are oppressed. Jesus Christ

Men are bad and will make any system bad. If people repent and accept the Gospel God will give His spirit and with this new spirit the world will function. Jesus Christ will teach the peoples peace and righteouness. Isaiah has prophecied of this. John has prophecied of this . Turn to God and beg for righteousness and then there will be true change.

Updated (20/02/2012): Who am I ? Watch my video: What Exactly Is Evil About the 1% http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-s3XqbU81k

2034 Comments

2034 Comments


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[-] 11 points by DirtyHippie (200) 3 years ago

Keeping religion out of government should be included in the core agenda of OWS. We don't need to talk about Jesus here.

[-] 4 points by username2011 (59) 3 years ago

Talking about Jesus, if done in a non-proselytizing fashion, does not mean that we are necessarily bringing religion into this movement, or into government. Jesus promoted the same core values (social justice, peace, economic fairness, compassion and assistance for the poor...) as most OWS supporters. It is important to mention Jesus to remind many right wing "Christians" of this fact, as many of them have conveniently forgotten those teachings of Jesus that do not jive with their own political agendas. Also, let's not forget about the many religious leaders (of all faiths) who have publicly expressed their support for OWS, and who have provided shelter, food, etc. for demonstrators. Many people automatically recoil at the mention of Jesus, or anything "religious," because there has historically been so much oppression and hypocrisy associated with organized religion. However, if we paint all people of faith with the same brush - assigning negative stereotypes - we will lose the support of many liberal people of faith who share many of our core social beliefs.

[-] 3 points by demcapitalist (977) 3 years ago

Much of America's original documents were written by Quakers. Quakers are the opposite of our current religious right. They were people who saw the hippocracy of organized religion and how corrupt religion becomes when it is used politically. It really is disgusting to watch a bunch of fat cats round up a bunch of Christians with some phony religious talking point only to get elected and go on a big money grab where they get to feed even more money to the American oligarchs. It is good for religion to keep in out of politics. Religion can have some purity only if it is kept out of government.

[-] 2 points by MaryS (678) 3 years ago

I love the way you said this, username2011. Thank you. Everyone informs their political beliefs based on some world view and that's not the problem- it's when they organize so they can lie, brainwash, manipulate and coerce others into following that view that it's wrong.

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[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 3 years ago

When you remind right wing Christians of what their religion actually states, they roll their eyes, because for them, religion is merely a means of tribal identification, so it manifests in ways that reinforces their narcissistic tendencies. In their defense, they really can't help themselves.

[-] 5 points by elf3 (3451) 10 months ago

That has been my experience as well...growing up Catholic I have a strong sense of do unto others and hold it as a core value ...however my experience meeting religious people who do not practice this and use religion instead as a means for self advancement and moral superiority and use it as a mask to do what they want and still claim morality turned me off...it is my belief some people are born with in built moral compasses and empathic natures...probably Jesus was one of those....perhaps people who need guidance should look for the Jesuses among us instead of looking to organized "tribes" or a man or world in the sky. Heaven could be ours here and now if we would make it.. Jesus kind of went his own way and didn't advocate self advancement or judgement. They also fail to remember there are those who will take advantage of their beliefs and know the right things to say...people need to be able to discern truth...being willing to see truth and see through masks. I sort of agree with Buddhists who frequently shift their belief structures in the discernment of facts. I really don't think people need god they just need to be and do good. Maybe some people need the fear of a fiery afterlife to behave nicely....but they are the last people we should be listening to I would think...?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 months ago

Good comment.

Don't people think that all religions should focus on the positive - "DOING GOOD WORKS" - rather than promoting/supporting violence?

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[-] 4 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 3 years ago

Exactly

[-] 3 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 3 years ago

YOU don't need to talk about Jesus here. That's YOUR business and I respect that.

But when you you use "WE" and claim to speak for us all ("We don't need to talk about Jesus here"), sorry buddy but that's called DOGMATISM and is imo disrespectful of those of us who do think that the REAL teachings of Jesus - as opposed to the distortions of the "Irreligious Right" - have everything to do with OWS.

Need I remind you that the main thrust of the teachings of Jesus - as of ALL of the Great Jewish Prophets - was SOCIAL JUSTICE?

[-] 1 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (-184) 3 years ago

tell what Jesus said that equates to "social justice" in the OWS sense?

[-] 1 points by OkFineIWin (46) 3 years ago

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. -James 5:1-5

[-] 1 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (-184) 3 years ago

those are not Jesus' words...if you want to quote the letters of the Bible, how about this one:

2 Thessalonians 3:10: For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

[-] 1 points by OkFineIWin (46) 3 years ago

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” -Matthew 19:21

[-] 0 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (-184) 3 years ago

nice edit.......that was about love of money over love of god......not "Social Justice" He didn't command Solomon or Abraham to sell their possessions......don't quote the bible out of context....

[-] 1 points by OkFineIWin (46) 3 years ago

I was hungry. You did not give me food. I was thirsty. You did not give me a drink. I was a stranger. You did not take me in. I needed clothes. You did not give me any clothes. I was sick and in prison. You did not come to see me." Then they will also ask, "Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or needing clothes, or sick, or in prison, and did not help you?" Then the King will answer them, "I tell you the truth. What you did not do for even the smallest of these, you did not do for me." -Matthew 25:42-45

[-] 0 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (-184) 3 years ago

13 “Therefore stay alert, because you do not know the day or the hour. 14 For it is like a man going on a journey, who summoned his slaves and entrusted his property to them. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The one who had received five talents went off right away and put his money to work270 and gained five more. 17 In the same way, the one who had two gained two more. 18 But the one who had received one talent went out and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money in it. 19 After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled his accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came and brought five more, saying, ‘Sir, you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’ 21 His master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful in a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 The one with the two talents also came and said, ‘Sir, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more.’ 23 His master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful with a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 Then the one who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Sir, I knew that you were a hard man, harvesting where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered, ‘Evil and lazy slave! So you knew that I harvest where I didn’t sow and gather where I didn’t scatter? 27 Then you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received my money back with interest! 28 Therefore take the talent from him and give it to the one who has ten. 29 For the one who has will be given more, and he will have more than enough. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless slave into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’”

"A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it, and found none. He said to the vine dresser, ‘Behold, these three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, and found none. Cut it down. Why does it waste the soil?’

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 12 months ago

Keeping Jesus out of government is the core problem not only of the USA but also of other governments of this world. This way money rules.

[-] 2 points by username2011 (59) 3 years ago

Although I don't think it is appropriate to make OWS a "religious" effort, it should be noted that leaders of many faiths have endorsed OWS - and offered practical support - because of a shared belief in core principles like social justice, economic fairness, compassion, shared sacrifice, etc. We can legitimately point out that Jesus was an advocate for the poor and oppressed - and an opponent of the corrupt, greedy status quo - without making this specifically a religious movement. And, since there are many right wing "Christians" who seem to have conveniently forgotten Jesus's position on these issues, I think it is fine to remind them now & then.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

And leaders of non religions.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

May I tell you something about the Gospel. It is about the Kingdom of God. God has send a King to this world to redeem and free the oppressed. He proved a leader who cannot be corrupted. Jesus proved it with His life. This Kingdom is there already. Jesus has all the power. He does not need endorsments because He is endorsed by the Creator. It is now up to us to submit and ride on his victorious train.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

Gotta be laughing at the mess he left you in.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Now tell me one thing about His life teaching you don't like.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

Only that every time he says something, it always sounds like your voice. Ever notice that? Hmmmm.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

One thing about His life or teaching you don't like. Don't distract!

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 3 years ago

It is difficult if not impossible to disagree with the merit of any of the simple core ideas exemplified in Jesus's life or his specific teachings, because from what I can tell they are mostly encompassed by the ideals of hard work, self-sacrifice, looking out for those around you and lending a hand where needed, and doing your best not to judge those around you for the way they live their lives. I agree with all of those teachings, and even though I am not Christian I strive to uphold those ideals in my daily life.

The catch comes when all the trappings and all the dogma applied to any one sect of Christianity simply becomes hand-waved in as part of the "teachings of Jesus" when in reality it's merely a reflection of the personal norms and beliefs of whoever happens to be reading or interpreting the Bible at any given moment. As far as I'm concerned, organized religion is often more trouble than it's worth, and often far better at dividing people than it is at uniting them. I don't agree with the teachings of Jesus because I believe in God, the afterlife, or anything else; I agree with them because as far as I'm concerned they're profoundly useful and positive ideas to live by and by doing so I make this life better for myself and those around me.

Also, I don't like the idea of giving my life and my fate over to some sort of higher power, because I personally see it as a form of intellectual and moral laziness. If God will provide for me, and God will fix the world for me, and God's plan is inevitable, then what impetus do I have to do my part to make this world a better place? Where's my responsibility to strive for myself and for my fellow man, if some other entity (whom I conveniently can't see or hear or communicate with) is going to do all the striving for me, and setbacks and defeats can just be handwaved as God working in mysterious ways?

While I'm at it, what's the point of morality at all if it's simply a matter of obedience to some other magical being (whom again, I can't see or hear or communicate with and therefore must rely on myself or someone else to determine what He is or is not saying). The point of morality is that it is almost always based on certain general absolute principles, but then you have to determine for yourself how best to apply those principles to any given situation, and a lot of those situations are messy and murky and complicated and people can start in the same place and come to radically different conclusions about what's right for them on particular issues. If you're going to go through the process of coming to grips with who you are and what you value I don't really see the use of signing God's name to what is in the end your personal struggle, and often organized religion can become an exercise in control for church leaders and a road to easy answers where none exist for followers (which as far as I'm concerned is just bad news all around).

I just want to note that I don't believe that all organized religion is or must be this, or that all religious people are morally lazy or narrow-minded and rigid, or that all church leaders are power-hungry or hypocritical, and if the preceding rant was offensive to anyone I sincerely apologize. My point is that there are many valid reasons for intelligent, honorable people to look somewhere besides God for guidance, and talking about how we all need to get on God's train or whatever the new colloquialism for conversion is if we want the country to succeed is flat-out offensive and demeaning and needs to stop.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thank you for your thoughts. I wonder whether you agree to this: It is too much for a human to change the world so that all unrighteousness, greed and evil will be gone. I can do a little but it is not enough. Therefore I put my trust in God who alone can deal with all evil.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 3 years ago

I do not believe that any one human can change things so dramatically that all evil will be gone. I also believe that no single sentient being, deity or otherwise, can accomplish such a feat because it is in fact too great to ever fully complete. That said, while I cannot eliminate all evil across the world or even necessarily in my own community, I can at least do my best to diminish it in both my personal life and in my interactions with others.

Further, I place my trust in the threshold effect; while no one person can make much more than a small dent in the amount of evil in the world, if enough people pitch in and do their own personal best to diminish pain and suffering around them, then we can reduce it to a fairly tolerable level overall. Once that happens, perfect goodness will become like perfect knowledge; we can never truly achieve it but we can always strive for it and the journey brought about by striving for it will make a far better species of man than having it simply handed to him by an outside being would.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I believe that it is possible for God to get rid of evil. Just look what happened 2000 years ago. There was a man who did no evil and he was crucified. He overcame evil with good. He died but not invane. Because this way he provided for a sacrifice for all evil people. The evil people can now repent receive forgiveness based on this sacrifice and then God gives them a new spirit and a new heart.

This is the miracle of the Gospel. That God gives a new heart and mind and this way only men will change.

[-] 2 points by gregb325 (133) from Scranton, PA 3 years ago

exactly!

[-] 2 points by royalspirit (47) 3 years ago

The problem with religion is that people involve in it can become fanatics due to influence of charismatic preachers who infuse their own doctrine, belief and opinions and used the scriptures on a legalistic basis rather than the simple teaching of Love. If Satan can misled and deceive us, he can do that easily through religion. As for me I do not need religion to seek God.

[-] 2 points by blackwaterdwk93 (21) 3 years ago

how can you expect someone's worldview to not be included when making political decisions?

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Good point

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 3 years ago

If you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, and you fear no evil, then why are you not giving you location on this site?

[-] 3 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I am living in Bavaria, Germany.

[-] 2 points by smarzie (62) from Portsmouth, OH 3 years ago

Agreed. Everyone has different religions, some have none at all, and none of that needs to be a part of this movement or a government for ALL people.

[-] 2 points by coolnyc (216) from Stone Ridge, NY 3 years ago

Agreed. Religion is a special interest just like corporations and unions. None should have any more influence on our elected officials than I do.

[-] 5 points by royalspirit (47) 3 years ago

Yeah we should eliminate religion from government but not God, the problem is that due to lack of God, his guidance and intervention that we are plague by evil. God just leaves us alone as we please unless we specifically ask him to intervene with our lives. We can never have true lasting peace and happiness without Him. Religion has made it worse by presenting God in an annoying manner that is why people hate religion. To be with God is just simple and does not need complexities the way religion suggest with their almost legalistic Bible studies and debate, etc. They are under the influence of the dark forces. Satan is clever enough to deceive us turning religion to work in his favor.

[-] 4 points by bettydonnelly (115) 3 years ago

God / Religion needs to be between you and your God no one else. The separation of Church and State is one of the most important Constitutional Protections all of us have. And don't you ever forget it.

[-] 4 points by coolnyc (216) from Stone Ridge, NY 3 years ago

God and/or religion isn't the issue. The issue is that special interest groups are buying our elected officials.

[-] 1 points by forOWS (161) 3 years ago

God gave us a fantastic brain to survive on this Earth, but if we are too stupid to change the world for the betterment of ourselves and we succeed in bringing about our own extinction or even to rid ourselves of the present form of suffering then it does not matter to God. God has countless millions of other planets in the infinite Universe where other just as beautiful and intelligent life is evolving. I doubt God would miss the people on this planet. We are microbes on a rock floating in Space.

[-] 1 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (-184) 3 years ago

you can't change the world, you can only live in it, and you can't change others, you can only inspire them to change......the ONLY change you can make in the world is how you see it, and how you operate within it's parameters......this was the teaching of Christ, not how to change others but how to change yourself first and inspire others.....

Jesus didn't shrink from lowly labors, or have expectations of entitlement....and he was appreciative of the things he was given and used them to the fullest....

You OWS-er's might want to take a lesson.....

[-] 0 points by FuManchu (619) 3 years ago

Also there is the other small issue -religion is just bs. Stupid incoherent violent fairy tales. Let us focus on real issues.

[-] 2 points by coolnyc (216) from Stone Ridge, NY 3 years ago

Many in the 99% are deeply religious people. Religion isn't the issue; institutionalized political graft is the issue.

[-] 1 points by Tinhorn (285) 3 years ago

Thus the problem with OWS as you can see by the responses you see above. If you have religion, you don't belong in OWS (certainly not the view of a majority of the 99%).

[-] 1 points by FuManchu (619) 3 years ago

Yes. Its ok as long as it doesnt affect legislature.

[-] -1 points by forOWS (161) 3 years ago

Religion is the "opiate of the masses" because it exhorts the faithful to consider this world as already lost and to make no efforts to save it because a better world awaits them in heaven. And that it is okay to commit evil because your religion forgives you and pats you on the back to continue. That would be the zombies you see walking everywhere. People like Boehner, Cantnor, Ryan, McConnell and Wall Street types in NYC. Also the many smug and complacent citizens of America. We all know people like that. Some even post here to spout off words spoken to them by the devil itself. That is why when we read their posts they sound so repulsive. El Diablo as troll.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8473) from Phoenix, AZ 3 years ago

oh before I forget, totally agree; keep religon out of government

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8473) from Phoenix, AZ 3 years ago

I kind of agree that we shouldn't use "we" yet here I am using "we" and I did it before, when I was telling someone that WE are all founders of OWS (I apolized for being preachy) verbage here gets a litle tricky, guess I'll have to think about how we can deal with that..just kidding....back to the post, you know I think the person has a point, states it well and I welcome the discussion, but that's just me

[-] 1 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 3 years ago

Jesus wasn't such a bad guy though.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 3 years ago

yea - just like the communists. then god is replaced by government. the government becomes your savior. the government decides what rights you have instead of the inalienable rights endowed by your creator. Nice going .

[-] 1 points by Doc4the99 (591) from Washington, DC 3 years ago

How about separation between State and Corporation? Religion isn't a bad thing to keep in the movement. Crazy ass right wing christian-- yeah keep them out. But most religion at their core are directly opposed to what greed directs the .001 percent hedge fund mangers to do when they gamble without heart trillions in tax payer money away while they collect the profits; and the 99 percent pays for the losses. Morality is a good thing.

[-] 1 points by Idaltu (662) 3 years ago

I think there is a difference between talking about a person who was trying to teach Universal Morality as opposed to Religion which has nothing to do with what the person Jesus was talking about. I am an atheist but I certainly do appreciate the concepts that Jesus was attempting to teach. And those concepts are useful in attempting to re-construct a government..a government based on real compassion.

[-] 1 points by 666isMONEY (348) 3 years ago

Jesus would say: 'ABOLISH MONEY." he sent his disciples out without money, said, "U can't serve God & money" ("But the Pharisees who loved money heard all this and scoffed" -- Luke 16) and upset the tables of the moneychangers.

[-] 1 points by TheDude (18) 3 years ago

NOW HEAR THIS: Corporate Tall by VOLTFACE - a song about Wall Street Greed. Wonderfully appropriate! Its the Anthem we needed!

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Available on iTunes as well...

[-] 1 points by Tujay (20) 3 years ago

I agree. I do, however, want us to promote non-partisanship, religious tolerance, racial/gender/age/economic justice, so that ALL may feel included. We are taking on the most powerful entity in the world and if we want economic justice and debt fairness, we need to be inclusive of everyone who is for us.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

We need to include God. However it is better to say we need to be on God's side.

[-] 1 points by mandy465 (11) 3 years ago

I think their just trying to reference people who say their Christian but don't go by Jesus's word

[-] 1 points by tc9370 (3) 3 years ago

Thank you!

[-] 1 points by KnowingOne (54) 3 years ago

I agree wholeheartedly all who agree say I

[-] 1 points by MechanicalMoney (208) 3 years ago

Speaking in the name of...Is lying !

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

After thinking about this demand for a while I can see a fundamental consequence of it. It has backed the very abuse OWS tires to overcome. Because it excuses the powerful to submit to the just laws of God which would have hindered them to do what they have done. God is the only perfectly righteous one with a set of reighteous laws. These laws protect the poor BUT they also protect from other vices. Now the powerful have made the masses drunk with partly allowing the vices of the 99%. Because why do you not want God in here. Because His law would also cut down on your unrighteousness. So if you have this objection you drink of the same spirit those people drink whoes unrighteousness you want to stop now.

[-] 1 points by WorkingClassAntiHero (352) from Manchester, NH 3 years ago

Again, if the discussion of Jesus is something akin to Jesus saying stand with the common man, fuck it...bring it on. I don't care why you support OWS, so long as you support us. Let us argue over the specifics of what our clean and Democratic society will be like after we've cleaned out the elections and regulated the private sector's influence on the public sector and public in general are.

And btw, I'm one of those wishy washy agnostic atheist types, so don't think I just came from church. But if we can have the black flag sit beside outright socialists and have marxists eat with Ron Paul libertarians and talk about what dicks cops can be, etc...we can make room for some Jesus freaks who share our common vision of a government free from corruption and a under/middle class that can trust its own society.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Have you considered the history of nations? Revolutioni follows revolution because the replacing system turns out to be corrupt again. That is why Jesus is not just one group besiedes others. He is the only solution.

[-] 1 points by WorkingClassAntiHero (352) from Manchester, NH 3 years ago

I understand that you are bringing religious fervor to this, therefore believe wholly that your religious convictions are not only good for everyone, but necessary, but Christian Dominionism is as bad as corporatocracy.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Why? Because the poor would be helped by release of all debt. In the future no interest on debt. Redistribution of basic wealth. I wonder what I did wrong that you do not see the huge difference. Jesus is on the side of the poor. He has proved it with His life.

[-] 2 points by WorkingClassAntiHero (352) from Manchester, NH 3 years ago

I don't argue against Christians standing with the movement. I'm all for it. If you are an individual or group with the belief that ordinary people should not go hungry while a gilded elite revel in their accumulated, concentrated and underhandedly gained wealth, and that a nation should be subject to more than simply its greediest and wealthiest's desires, I say come on board. But to attempt to use this movement as a way to grow one's sect, faction or religion is itself underhanded. You will find a good deal of thiests and athiests alike in this movement and will probably not find your message of love and peace through Christ as readily accepted as you may hope. However for what its worth, any message of love and peace is cool with me.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I am sure you will agree that the root of the problem of WallSt is a lack of love for others. But if are honest the lack of love does not end with them. A society will only work in the long run when there is equal love. So we do not need a stimulue of money, but of love. So where do we get it. It is only God who can provide for it. The Christion religion is the only one offering that.

[-] 1 points by WorkingClassAntiHero (352) from Manchester, NH 3 years ago

Well no, Christianity isn't the only religion offering "God" or "love." They pretty much all do that in one way or another. And I don't agree that its a "lack of love" that necessarily creates and sustains our current problems.

I'd say that its greed and the promotion of greed as a virtue, by a ruling gilded class and institutions which themselves, are not human, and exist solely to acquire greater amounts of wealth and power. Love all you like, love isn't going to topple that machine

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 3 years ago

I think you can look at things in terms of fear and love. Greed comes from insecurity, its like the fear of not having enough leading to a lust for more money; but if you love yourself and others then it doesn't really matter what you have in life.

Kinda fluffy, kinda simplistic, but I bet a lot of these politicians put on a good show but are really scared little creatures overcompensating for something they lack in their private lives.

I completely disagree that the Christian Religion has some kind of monopoly on love tho, that's a bit pretentious. You don't need religion for love.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Love is stronger than death. Don't err.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What you seek is wisdom. What you need is wisdom because you go against one of the biggest powers in the world. Zeal without wisdom makes you fall. Why do you want to exclude something that has transformed large parts of the world already by wisdom?

[-] 1 points by annecurrey (30) 3 years ago

Our Founding Fathers knew about popes and kings being in bed together since the wealth was amassed in the Catholic Church in England and then confiscated to the Church of England. That is the meaning of separation of church and state.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The Founding Fathers are not on my list on how to set up a system working that works for the poorest as well. They uphold slavery and partly kept slaves themselves.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So how come the Founding Fathers kept slaves and set up the base of your problem today. True Christianity stands up for the law of God, which is not to take interest, to release people of debt and so on. It is true that people have acted in the name God denying his laws that protect the poor from the rich. The Founding Fathers are not on my list of wisdom I can learn from when it comes to protecting the poor against riches. They have uphold slavery and partly kept slaves themselves. Don't expect them to set up a system that brings justice to the poor.

[-] 1 points by DirtyHippie (200) 3 years ago

You are correct. Our Founding Fathers wanted to keep religion out of government and many of the people who came to this continent in the 1600s and 1700s wanted to escape religious persecution. After all this time we still have to remain vigilant to keep religion separate from the state. On top of that, we have to separate business and state too.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Keeping religion out means keeping God out - means keeping any help for healing the core issue out. Which is: A fundamental lack of love. Not only on the side of WallSt but also on the side of rest of us, the 99%. Yes Wallmart did destroy many mom and pop stores, destroying a middle class and producing few Billioneers and a million or so who work for money that so little that they can hardly make it or not make it with a family. But who bought there? Us. We are not without guilt for the rise of the giants. Still they have profited for many many years and it should end.

Therefore the root problem is an increasing general lack of love. Therfore if you replace a system caused by lack of love the new system will develp to the same if there has not been a stimulus of love for the people. God is love and the only one who has enough to set a up a "tarp" programm of stimulating love. Look at Jesus and his selfless life and most of all His selfless sacrifice of His body. There you see a stimulus of love.

[-] 1 points by DirtyHippie (200) 3 years ago

You may practice the religion of your choice on your own time but don't bring it here. For all of the good intentions, it only brings strife. Begone.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Since thousands of years by and large people have done exactly what you have said and over and over again the powerful rigged the system. I am not contend with that. One question: If you had a choice of getting a treuly righteous system that does not forget the cause of the poor would you be willing to let religion in or would you rather keep religion out and have the poor be fogotten?

[-] 1 points by GeoffH (214) from Jacksonville, FL 3 years ago

We tried the whole "let the Church rule", it was called the Dark Ages. Let's try letting the People rule. Remove Market AND Religious control of our Government and simply let it Govern the people as it should without self serving Fundamentalists of Greed and Corruption appointing their 'chosen' leaders.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I agree that one of the worst things is the abuse of religion. It happened to a horrible degree at the time of Martin Luther. People claiming to be the vicars of Christ or his priests robbed money from the poor by selling them time out for the what called purgetory. Yes, but the reason for this was not the teaching of Christ but there evil heart. Martin Luther set that right and changed Europe. So in fact those people who abused religion did govern by themselves. The spirit they ruled in is the same you want to rule in, apart from God the only one truly taking up the cause of the poor.

[-] 1 points by GeoffH (214) from Jacksonville, FL 3 years ago

I live a faithful life. I am Christian but, Christ preached about tolerance. You can not be tolerant of other people's views if you yourself push your own views on them. I respect your desire for a Utopian Christian society, I do. However, Religion is a divider in this country not a unifier. The various factions of faith (within the Christian church alone, not even counting the other faiths) are so fractured that they could not agree on the color of shit. They are a bigger mess than the Democrats and Republicans who often argue and disagree just because they have to disagree and argue with the other side.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I share your frustration about the fragmentation and the strive. Yes and even in the Christian world there are hundreds of different denominations. But this is not the work of God. Jesus prayed that we be one. We can see that there is a dire need for that. But I am afraid that we disagree on the way to unity. I believe that God will bring unity through His Spirit. As with all things we humans do not have the moral capacity to do what is right and good in the long run. For a time it is possible to forget about the differences and not talk about it. But you cannot keep up with this for long and then you have to do it all over again. Can you imagine that God can bring unity to our mess?

[-] 1 points by GeoffH (214) from Jacksonville, FL 3 years ago

I will pray for God to take over. Until then, I will have to fight for our freedom from oppression. "Rise and Rise again until the Lambs become Lions and the Lions become Lambs."

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Let us work for justice but not with the same spirit of the people we have to go against. It will become the well know back and forth. Let us break this vicious cirlcle like Martin Luther King. Love is a force that is stronger than death. Look to Jesus who prayed for the very people who abused him and even killed Him. And look what success he has already in the world. Millions of followers. And the prophecy is that eventually all the nations will come to him to be taught His ways.

[-] 1 points by GeoffH (214) from Jacksonville, FL 3 years ago

Your point is unclear. We have to stand up against oppression. Until God himself descends from the heavens and implements his rule over the land, we will have to govern ourselves. To that ends, I plan on fighting for the freedoms that we all deserve, as peacefully as possible.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I actually believe that all in all God governs us anyway all the time. So you are right in saying we have to govern but it is also right to say let God govern. The peace will come when both parts involved God and man have reconciled and govern in the same Spirit.

[-] 1 points by GeoffH (214) from Jacksonville, FL 3 years ago

Well clearly that is not happening now. You can not obey Money and God at the same time right? So we have to cast off the influence of Money. But, then, we enter a paradox. If God 'is' Governing us all the time then he wanted and controlled the various horrible tyrannical societies of history? Sadam Hussien had God whispering in his ear and controlling his hand? We should just roll over and 'let' God govern us? Your biblical rhetoric doesn't really work.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You have hit one of the toughest question to answer. Wisdom says; The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster. Does that help you?

[-] 1 points by CHRISHEPBURN (44) 3 years ago

Oh no core agenda's. How about a Power Point presentation and a little tofu.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The core agenda is: Year of release: Cancelation of all debt. Redistribution of basic wealth. Every 7 years cancelation of debt. No interest on debt. Prayer to God for a stimulus of love desperately needed for any future society, because the lack of love is the root for the crisis, and God the only one able to provide this.

[-] 1 points by CHRISHEPBURN (44) 3 years ago

Firstly no god however lets pretend there is. Some people will say god is 5.11 other people will say he is 6.1 it would start with angry words and end up with people bombing each other.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Why is it so? Because God is schizophrenic or because men are liars and lie about everything including God. And with or without talking about God they start bombing each other. That is why there is a need that God helps us.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Tell me one reason why the laws of God are bad. No interest on debt. Release people of debt. Redestribution of basic wealth. Why have you not come up with these things. That is the reason why religion needs to be in here. Because God is the only one who truley defends the poor.

[-] 1 points by CHRISHEPBURN (44) 3 years ago

I wish you well you are a friendly man and in some ways I wish I could share your god delusion. Like believing fairy's live in the bottom of the garden. Good luck with everything leaving this board shortly makes me feel worst bunch of kids with no goals. Almost like sitting down and demanding a better wheel

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

True conviction is based on searching, meditating and gathering knolwedge concerning the issue. My conviction of these things developed when I started searching for the truth, reading the Bible, meditating about it, questioning it and receiving answers from the source of truth God. Just start reading the Bible from beginning to end and you will see - if you want to - the beauty of the Word of God and its truth.

[-] -1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 3 years ago

don't for get 4 wives!

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What do you mean?

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by USCitizenVoter (720) 3 years ago

Ever heard of Enoch ?

[-] 0 points by REALamerican (241) 3 years ago

There is a difference between "keeping religion out of government" and "keeping the government from forcing religion". Read the constitution. Besides, you cannot tell someone that is going to hold office they must stop believing in something. That is a violation of their rights. Being a public christian and believing and surrounding yourself with christianity while in office is, however, in no way violating anyone's rights.

[-] 0 points by LazerusShade (76) 3 years ago

Agreed if anything given the damage religion is doing in government now we should strengthen separation of church and state by requiring anyone who runs for office to state if they are a member of any religion. If the answer is Yes then they can not run for office.

I believe it was Ben Franklin who said it best that the separation of Church and would have to be a requirement because through out history when ever the 2 are combined one corrupts the other, and so both must remain separate, and will be better off for it. (not an exact quote I am sorry going off memory)

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

[-] 0 points by bangbang (61) 3 years ago

Proof the Right wing Christians are here to hate and destroy using their failed propaganda that has not worked for 2,000 years. If did would we all be in this mess?

[-] 1 points by bangbang (61) 3 years ago

The only time you get this many people responding is if Christians post a What Would Jesus Do crap, more proof they are not here responding to the more important points but to further their own agenda, over throw of the government to make a Christian dictatorship using the bible to rule the world, into a real living hell. I know some of you can figure this out, see how many Christians respond to Christian post, it is very plain to see. Over 600 replies to Christian post but the more important post about the OWS movement, maybe a few post or more. Face it the Christians are using you to take over, wake up fools, they are not there for you but only to use you to get what they want, a crazy Christian Dictatorship that will kill everybody not one of them nuts.

[-] 0 points by anonymouschristianterrorist (88) 3 years ago

I told you the Jesus Freaks were here trying to set up their Christian dictatorship. Heil Jesus.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Who is the unrighteous dictator of the world? Did Jesus set up a banking system when He was on earth or did He not drive out the money changers in the temple and live in poverty? Was he rigged by lobbyist or did He not attack the elite of His time. Did he charge 30% on debt or was he not willing to forgive debt. Be careful what authority you choose. There is none more merciful and benevolent than Jesus, the King of Kings

[-] -1 points by anonymouschristianterrorist (88) 3 years ago

Jesus is a mad man dictator like Hitler.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Have facts a chance to be considered in your judgement. Please think of what you say. Why do you want to ignore reality? What is the issue?

[-] 0 points by MechanicalMoney (208) 3 years ago

Jesus was a hippie, he never worked... (and was born at 30')

[-] 0 points by THETRUTH (10) 3 years ago

Jesus would not have set up a dictatorship. His approach was the complete opposite. Marx, though, would have set up a dictatorship of the proletariat. Unfortunately, the proletariat was representative of the working class, not the unskilled wage slave. He called them the Lumpenproletariat. Like a Starbucks barista, they were of no use to the revolution.

Who Is Greatest

Luke 22:24-30

  24And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ 26“But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. 27“For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

  28“You are those who have stood by Me in My trials; 29and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you 30that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
[-] 1 points by MattHolck0 (3097) 10 months ago

22/24

if you remove 

the indents

the scroll box should disappear

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 10 months ago

I don't understand what this means. What do think Jesus is settting up?

[-] 5 points by enough (587) 3 years ago

The only time Jesus Christ was angry was when he chased the moneylenders out of the temple. Main Street Americans are angry and want to chase the moneylenders out of our government and out of our lives. In God we trust, but that trust does not extend to those who would do us harm. May God protect us and may God bless America.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

And then? The rule of money sit deeper than that according to my overservation when I lived in the US for almost 5 years, Don't you agree?

[-] 5 points by changeinmotion (20) from Portland, ME 3 years ago

jesus preached treat others as you want to be treated - golden rule! He wants man and woman to evolve and the only way we do that is to evoke change for all the right reasons. All of us protesters - protest in the name of all that is right, just and equal. Jesus isn't here right now in flesh and blood. If he were he'd be sitting with all of us.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

And would preach to you the same thing that you must repent and follow Him. All men are sinners. Not only Wall Street.

[-] 3 points by changeinmotion (20) from Portland, ME 3 years ago

he and oh so many other prophets all preached do not judge lest you be judged right along with them.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Repentance is the basic theme of every true Gospel preacher. You will agree on that, I am sure.

[-] 4 points by agkaiser (1444) from Fredericksburg, TX 10 months ago

There are plenty of coherent, well intended and morally desirable philosophies besides Christianity. If any of them were followed sincerely by all people great and small, the world's problems would disappear. But they never have been, at least since the beginning of civilization and the tolerance of uneven distribution of the stuff of life.

So sure, if we were all sincere Christians, our problems would be solved.

The problem with the subjunctive is its disconnect from the reality.

The reality is it takes communities to produce what we want and need but a few individuals take it all for themselves and call it private property.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 10 months ago

The reality is that humans are too evil to all act right. And therefore only Jesus can bring salvation because He can overcome humans and make them good. Do you believe that?

[-] 2 points by MattHolck0 (3097) 10 months ago

most humans are good

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 7 months ago

Please show me one who can say that he has cleansed his heart and is free from any evil?

[-] 1 points by MattHolck0 (3097) 7 months ago

it's not a purity test

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 7 months ago

If someone is good he must be pure in heart.

[-] 4 points by MattHolck0 (3097) 7 months ago

good people help each other

purity has nothing to do with it

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 4 months ago

if you love your neighbor as yourself you must have purity in heart.

[-] -1 points by flip (7101) 10 months ago

right on man - the system promotes greedy people

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1444) from Fredericksburg, TX 10 months ago

"If Jesus saves, then he'd better save himself . . . from the gory glory seekers, who use his name in death!" "I don't believe you. You got the whole damn thing all wrong! He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays."

  • Ian Anderson Even if all the bishops are harmonizing lines! [or lies]
[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 10 months ago

Plaese bear with me. I do understand what you mean?

[-] -2 points by flip (7101) 10 months ago

no!

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 10 months ago

the Bible even says. That there is no human that is good.

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 10 months ago

the bible says many things - lots of them pretty horrific should we discuss what the bible says. how about this one - I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 10 months ago

What is horrific about it? It is a rule that hurts noone.

[-] 5 points by flip (7101) 10 months ago

and this - it's ok also - Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 10 months ago

What is your goal? To make God look unjust? Truth is that all humans are unjust and God is the only one good. In order to judge God you need His knowledge. But I do not have his knowledge. If you do not have God's knowledge how can you judge Him. What do you know about these people the law you cited is talking about? And if you do not know anything why do you want to judge?

[-] 4 points by flip (7101) 10 months ago

unlike you i do have god's knowledge - the god you seem to like - the old testament god is unjust and evil. i could site too many instances but your answer would always be the same. so believe what you like but do not ask me to buy into that obvious nonsense

[-] -1 points by Matthias (1055) 9 months ago

If you say the God of the New Testament is different. How can this be? Has God changed His mind over the years?

[-] 4 points by flip (7101) 9 months ago

Apparently. Have you read both books?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 9 months ago

Yes, I did and there is no change at all. In God there is no change. I see it this way that in the New Testament the scope of eternity has been fully opened. This includes judgement. People who do not believe will be thrown into hell for eternity. Therefore God is to be feared in the New Testament as well.

[-] 4 points by flip (7101) 9 months ago

i thought jesus preached peace and love but maybe i was misinformed. seems to me you see what you want to see. i see two different gods jesus and yahweh

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 8 months ago

But how can God change His mind? God knows everything which includes things in the future. Do you believe that?

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 months ago

he can change his mind if he is made up by silly humans - or he can change his mind because he wants to. maybe he realized he was a vengeful hateful shit before the time of jesus and thought "I can do better" - I would hope that was the reason no? he vengeful evil shit in the old days a s no? look what he did to poor job and then that thing with lot - pretty bad towards women - you must agree - do you know why lot was saved?

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21454) 1 year ago

What would Jesus think of Occupy Wall Street 2 years later?

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 1 year ago

I like this question. Thanks. I think he would think: "Mammon is too strong for you. With God everything is possible but not without Him."

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21454) 1 year ago

So, God is money for some people.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 1 year ago

Yes. It is written: Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth;...and covetousness, which is idolatry:

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

Jesus was revolutionary, egalitarian, anti-materialist whose only quoted act of violence was to "turn over the Money Changers' Tables and throw them out of The Temple".

So, re. what he'd have done and said about OWS - Go Figure !!!

"Ecce Homo" et fiat lux ...

[-] 3 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You have knowledge. Are you a Christian?

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

M@tthias : No ... but I know plenty of decent, loving, compassionate and 'heart-centred' people who are but alas, NOT everyone who professes 'The Nicene Creed' has these qualities !!

I have by dint of blood ties and marriages, Atheists ; Agnostics ; Christians ; Jews and Muslims in my family. I do not myself subscribe to any of 'The Abrahamics' due to the mumbo-jumbo ; inclination for 'linear time perception' and the propensity to internecine violence and doctrinal dogmatism. I subscribe to 'Eastern Ideas', especially 'Buddistic' meta-physics and notions of the 'spiralling of time and events'.

Tschus Matthias. I end there as I've said too much here (or not enough?!) on this Socio-Political Justice and Peace site !

et tempus fugit ...

[-] 3 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

If you have contact with so many religions you will have noticed that Jesus plays a hugely different role. We Christians say He is the Son of God. The "Jews" (there are Messianic Jews as well, but I don't know what else to write) deny Him being the Messiah. The Moslems deny His claim to be the King of Kings and the rest anyways. So what do you think of Jesus Christ?

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

M@ttias : Jesus = A Man and probably a Spiritually Gifted man ; who was possibly of Davidic Royal Linneage ; who would have been a practising and believing Jew ; who would have been scandalised and outraged IF Anyone thought that HE was consubstantiate with HaShem ; The Teragrammaton ; YHWH ; Jehova or G_d !!!

Re."The Moslems deny His claim to be the King of Kings and the rest anyways", I don't really know what that means but did you know that Muslims also believe in :

a) The OT Prophets Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Joseph, Moses, David et al ;

b) The OT, The Book of Psalms and The NT as 'Divinely Revealed Scriptures' ;

c) The Archangels Gabriel, Raphael, Michael, Azrael and other angels ;

d) The 'Virgin Birth' of Jesus (Isa) from Mary after 'divine visitation' ;

e) The Prophethood of Jesus AND John The Baptist ;

f.) The 'Holy Nature' of Mary ;

g) That Jesus Did Not Die An Earthly Death ;

h) That Jesus was 'Ascended Unto G_d's Pressence' &

i.) That Jesus "Will Return Before the End Of Days" ?

But hey ! Do NOT just take my word for it ; RESEARCH !! Or ask a Muslim and ask yourself WHY you do not yourself know of these rather important congruences and finally, Matthias - ask yourself :

Do You Really Believe That You Can Have Unique Access To Eternal Metaphysical, Spiritual and Universal TRUTHS ; Merely By Dint Of The Accident Of Birth, Cultural Upbringing & Mere Received Education ?!!

My perception of your 'Christianical Exceptionalism' will now probably preclude any further exchange though I do nevertheless extend to you and yours, ALL the very best wishes of Hanukkah ; Yuletide ; Solstice ; Christmas and The New Year & as for 2012, when ... well, we'll just have to wait and see ;-)

Oremus - pax, amor et lux ; hic et ubique ; nunc et semper ...

[-] 4 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks. I wish you all the best as well.

[-] 3 points by ShadzSixtySix (1936) 7 months ago

Also, consider that - ''A grave responsibility lies with the different religious traditions to give spiritual guidance and a clear message, particularly on the questions of economic injustice, ‘armed resistance‘, arms, militarism and war.'' From ..

tschuss ...

[-] 3 points by ShadzSixtySix (1936) 7 months ago

"The love of money is a root of all evil" = radix omnium malorum est cupiditas !

Und .. "Ich wünsche Dir ein Frohes Weihnachtsfest. Möge Gott Dich segnen."

pacem in terris ...

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 6 months ago

Vielen Dank. Möge Er Dich auch Segen mit Frieden und Gnade.

[-] -2 points by avery724 (60) 3 years ago

Islam was invented in the 7th century . Why does it claim that Moses,and Abraham were prophets of islam? Adam and David are not considered to be prophets in the OT.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

Please do NOT seek any dialogue with me about When Judaism, Christianity or Islam were 'invented' or How or by Whom OR Who believes in What ; as I'm Not Really Interested in you or your easily to detect Islamophobia and casual Judeo-Centricism. Happy Hanukkah & Shalom Aleichem ;-)

[-] -2 points by avery724 (60) 3 years ago

islam has been at war with the civilized world ever since it was invented. Have a nice day.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

My, that must make you and your 'knowledge of things' 1400 years old ! Your name isn't "Avery Ben Methuselah", is it because NOW I'm suddenly intrigued by your Earthly Longevity and 'wisdom' ;-) Shalom ...

[-] -1 points by avery724 (60) 3 years ago

I gather English is a second language for you.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

L0L ! So much for your ability to "gather" !! Your posts here, speak volumes in many languages !!!

[-] -1 points by avery724 (60) 3 years ago

I was right. English is a second language for you. "L0L"? Did you mean LOL?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

ilol! (now C if U can D-cypher thAt!) Shal0mmm~~{;-)

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by avery724 (60) 3 years ago

Greetings from the dessert god, pie allah mode. Or is he the lunch god, chicken allah king?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

Happy Hanukkah 'avery' and as you seem to be 'a very' confused and / or bigoted person, then during this Christmas, Yule and New Year, please don't over do the alcohol OR mix it with your 'Troll-o-lol' ;-)

[-] 1 points by jomojo (562) 3 years ago

He rebelled against the religious authorities.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

Is that what the then prevailing 'political' authorities' (Pax Romana) also thought ?

Didn't 'The Sanhedrin' AND 'The Imperium' both feel threatened by him ?!

ad iuducium ...

[-] -1 points by jomojo (562) 3 years ago

They did not encourage cult uprisings.

[-] 3 points by ubercaput (175) from New York City, NY 3 years ago

They killed Jesus and they'll do it again.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I think you are right. Rght now there are fast parts of the world where Christians are persecuted and put to death becaue of Christ. May I ask you a personal question? I am German and your username looks German. How come?

[-] 1 points by ubercaput (175) from New York City, NY 3 years ago

Germans are ubercool: Mozart, Hasselhoff, Merkel, Einstein-

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

But do you know what caput or kaputt mean?

[-] 1 points by ubercaput (175) from New York City, NY 3 years ago

Caput means head.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So are you are Christian?

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

Vielleicht nein, aber 'uber oder unter', er ist 'Kaput' ... und Ein Dummkopf ! Tschuss ;-)

[-] 3 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Bist Du ein Landsmann/frau?

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

Nein, mein freund. Ich bin ein Englander, aber ich spreche ein wenig Deutsch !

Haben ein Frohes Weihnachtsfest, Matthias und jetzt - tschuss mein freund ;-)

[-] 3 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Ich wünsche Dir auch ein Frohes Weihnachtsfest. Möge Gott Dich segnen.

[-] -2 points by avery724 (60) 3 years ago

Who killed Jesus?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 months ago

What would Jesus say

I don't know.

Perhaps ( among many other things ) something similar to this tweet?

DKAtoday @DKAtoday · 16s

@ EVERYONE

People before profits

Environment before profits

Health in ALL things before profits

Export Peace NOT weapons

Shift The Paradigm

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 1 week ago

Jesus, the King of Kings, before Mammon (Profit, Riches)

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Forum Post: What would Jesus say about OccupyWallSt

OH MY GOD - Have you got a mountain to climb!!!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 1 year ago

What do you mean?

[-] 2 points by randart (498) 3 years ago

If Jesus even existed and it wasn't a story of Mithras that was around since ancient Babylonian times. And, if the biblical story is anything like what happened after the Catholic Church was done rewriting much of it and excluding many books that threatened the Church's power. Then I think Jesus would still say it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the gates of heaven. There was also some little thing about a god called mammon, money, and the true god, spirit. Jesus, or Yeheshua as his real name was, said that man can't serve two masters, you will either love one and hate the other. There was no in between that I could remember.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You are very right in saying: hat man can't serve two masters, you will either love one and hate the other. There was no in between that I could remember. Thanks

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

Let's take religion out of our study of Jesus since while Jesus was alive, there was no Christian religion. Jesus, the man, activist and dissenter would be quite pleased with OWS because it he did the same exact thing as the OWSers- ironically for the same reasons! Jesus, like Moses, took an honorable stand against corruption. Here's a well written and very beautiful essay written about the greatest leaders to stand up against corruption and you don't need to subscribe to any dogma in order to appreciate this: http://www.futureofchildren.net/pdfs/Mandeep-Bedi-essay.pdf

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

But what about God. Is He in control and do you need Him for any change?

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

Hello Mathias, Is God in control? I believe so but allow me to explain that a bit more. There is a Divinely created natural state or harmony in our world. It's simply perfect and it works until humans screw it up. Why do we screw it up? Because we have egos that are easily tempted, misled and corrupted by greed, competitive mindsets, money, appearances, etc... We have free will to do with our personal things and the earth as we choose and we have free will to believe anything we choose. There are consequences for all our choices. I believe in God but I've also realized in 50 years that what I consider to be God is relative to my own personal beliefs and religious practice. Now, when I say religion, I am not referring to any organization other than how I organize my thoughts and live my daily life. Religion is our spiritual character put into action ( in my opinion). I believe that there is a Divine natural order or state of the universe and that when we align our personal character with that natural order then we are awakening that awareness and goodness in others. It's humans, I believe, that interrupt the harmony and so it's up to us to restore it. I believe that meditation and prayer are powerful. I pray every day for the activists because I know in my heart that they are doing the right thing whether they believe in God or not. Even the athiest activists behave as if they believe in God so maybe they just have a different name for God. God is social justice, love, peace, non violence, honesty, integrity, light and darkness, nature and all good and naturally occurring states of being. Maybe some folks haven't realized their own Divine nature yet. But, they do know that what is happening to this earth and it's peoples is a " sin" and needs to be rectified asap. So, I guess the way I see it is that we are all created from the same Divine source of goodness and as long as our goal in life is to preserve, nurture and restore the goodness and natural harmony, then we're fine. But, believing in anything greater than ourselves- hence, that Divine source, then in whatever we do, there is that added passion or juice in our efforts.

Do we need God for change? Well, since I believe that God or the Divine source resides in each of us, then yes, we need each other for change and we not look outside of ourselves to find that source of courage, strength, and integrity. It's been there all along and by praying, we are allowing ourselves to tap into that divine place in ourselves. Even the most corrupt have that ability to change but they won't until they realize they have chosen to ignore their own divine nature. When I pray to God, I am asking for guidance, I am asking for wisdom and asking for the courage to put into action all that I know is right and good. I pray that these brave activists will not be harmed by an ignorant authority who lacks the courage to do the right thing. I believe that our prayers send Divine energy around the world. So, we've got to stay focused on goodness and not allow anyone else's anger, bitterness and negativity to interrupt the goodness in our hearts. Every morning I light a candle and say a prayer for the the activists. I think everyone should do that whether they are believers, agnostics, athiests or aliens. We need to put the power of positive thinking into our world once again.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks for your reply. You must have thought about these issues a lot. But how does the rescue of the Isarelites from Egypt fit into your thoughts. God performed mighty miracles like hail, darkness and the death of the firstborn while Israel was protected? Moses said that God commanded him to do speak to the Pharao and the miracles are in my eyes more than our inner self can produce. How do you see that?

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

Mathias, I don't mean to discount the miracles written about in the Bible in any way but I try not to focus too much on the specific events in the parables other than to reap some wisdom from them. I have found a lot of contradictions in the Bible and given that the Bible was interpreted and translated by man, I realize that this is to be expected. I use the Bible and other Holy books as guides and sources of inspiration but I must admit that I'm not a devout reader. I'm not sure exactly what you are asking me but If I were Moses, I would have done everything I could to rescue the Jews from slavery. Moses was not perfect though. He killed an Egyptian who was abusing a slave and as a result of that more violence and chaos ensued. Moses was not wrong to feel compassion for the Jewish slave but he was not wise enough then to seek a more peaceful path to the ultimate exodus. God wants us to know that anger begets anger, war begets war, hatred begets hatred and likwise, love begets love, peace begets peace. There will always be despotic rulers and corrupt leaders in our world and there will always be people who appreciate nothing anyone does for them. But, we must stay true to the Divine nature that lives within us and not allow our egos to succumb to violence to fight violence. We must not allow ourselves to ever think that we alone are the source of miracles. Remember when Moses was fed up with the Hebrews and struck the rock to produce water for them? The Hebrews were greedy, self absorbed in their own miserable plight and the only time they behaved was in the presence of Moses ( sort of like some Christians who pretend to be so during church service). So, anyway, God became angry with Moses for striking that rock because in that moment, Moses had allowed his ego to take over and give the illusion that the miracle came from himself and not God. In other words, he was mocking God's power. Moses became wiser though and despite his temporary ' crimes', he ultimately knew that he was only a man, just like all other men on earth and he always defended the rights of the the Hebrews despite their misgivings and lack of appreciation for all that God had provided for them. That story reminds me so much of our world today.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What I don't understand: You must have read a lot in the Bible. And in it God is an independent moral being who has great power and intervenes sovereignly. So how can you reconcile this with saying that we have to fix it when God says He will fix it by sending a savior.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

Have you ever heard the Jewish phrase, " Tikkun Olam"? It means ' repairing the world'. I believe that as a human, I have the ethical responsibility to be aware and conscience of my world and to become God's partner in the work of our creation. Do a little research on Tikkun Olam. I've read a lot of books on this topic this year. One of my favorite books is called, " To Heal a Fractured World" by Rabbi Sacks. I think you would truly enjoy it and value it.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Please answer this thought I have written before: Now I think we disagree on one major issue. Correct me if I am wrong. Man's moral capacity is too week to turn the evil in the world around. In fact he is the source of evil and not good. WHereas God is the source of God and without His intervention by transforming man through His Holy Spirit it will not change to the better. You think that man is good enough to cleanse his heart himself. Am I correct?

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

My moral capacity is not to weak to turn evil around in the world. By simply living a moral life, I am indeed positively influencing the world and hopefully, cleansing the hearts of some others who may have needed some inspiration. Whether or not I ever know if I've made a positive difference is irrelevant to me. What I do know is that I have two choices- to either model love or hate. It's a pretty simple choice for me.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Then you are a lot better than me. I cannot say that I have to moral capacity to act based on pure equal love all the days of my life. I need Jesus to restore my heart and soul to a pure love. I am corrupted by pride, folly, jealousy, envy and pride, too name some.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

Gosh, that sounds pretty miserable and sad. You spend so much time worshiping and yet you feel so insecure? But, it doesn't matter what you're negative characteristics are at the moment if you realize what is wrong and then pursue healing and to rectify your mistakes. I really try my best not to be a repeater. If the world were perfect and we were perfect then there would be no need for life really. Life is all about experiences and lessons learned. How else can we grow and become worthy of being a great spiritual teacher? Life would be so boring too if everyone were perfect. Cut yourself some slack and work on mending on those egocentric thoughts and behaviors. God loves you anyway because He knows that you have the power to change anything you don't like about yourself. He graced you with that option :D

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

God works through the Gospel to build an everlasting Kingdom. You must be born again to be part of it. Flesh is flesh but His Kingdom is spiritual und you must be born of the Spirit. His Word is Spirit. So read John and you will hopefully see what I try to explain.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

No, I don't read a lot of the Bible. But, I've read some of it, the Torah too. The activists are doing God's work/ God works through them whether it's in their nature to believe that or not.
I believe that it is a misunderstanding for anyone to think that they can just sit idly by and expect a single savior to arrive one day and save them from despair- that is apathy and apathy is a sin. For one thing, if that is what God wanted you to do, he would tell you WHEN the savior would be arriving but then if you knew, you might behave like the Hebrews and only behave in the knowing. Faith is not based on anything certain. Faith is living with integrity of upholding the laws of God while you are here on this earth. The whole point is that we are to behave like saviors until the savior arrives and not focus on the arrival but focus on the now. We do need to fix what we screw up. That's the law of good manners and the law of being a good human. God did not screw things up, we did by either directly causing the suffering or by tolerating the injustices. Either way, we are guilty. Why should God send anyone to save us from our ourselves? Are we deserving of such at this time? Are we prepared? I don't think so. So, we better get busy saving the world so that it's ready for that visit. You never know, He may have already arrived.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Now I think we disagree on one major issue. Correct me if I am wrong. Man's moral capacity is too week to turn the evil in the world around. In fact he is the source of evil and not good. WHereas God is the source of God and without His intervention by transforming man through His Holy Spirit it will not change to the better. You think that man is good enough to cleanse his heart himself. Am I correct?

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

Here's an excerpt from that book I mentioned below: " In the Bible, when God revealed Himself to Abraham, Jacob and Moses, He began by simply calling them by name. Their response- at once the most primal and profound- was simply to say hineni, " Here I am". Life is God's question, we are His answer. It may be a good answer or a bad one., but it is the only answer there is. God does not need to know or be assured by us that He is God. He needs to know that we hear his call, that we are ready to rise to his challenge and that we are willing to take into our own hands the responsibility with which he has entrusted us, empowered and given strength by that very trust itself."

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Do you know Don Quixote. He tries to pull himself out by grapping his hair. A morally bad heart cannot clean itself because the heart is the first cause of your moral actions. So how can a first cause change itself. It takes the power of an outside force to change the human heart.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

There are many good outside forces around us every day. God works through us all who are willing to work for him.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

God wants all people to repent and follow His Son

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

Oh dear Matthias you have lost your faith and become a cynic! BELIEVE !!!!!!! God wants you to believe and to show your spiritual integrity by being the change that you want to see in the world despite the adversity and opposition. Misery loves company as you know and evil takes the path of least resistance. It's very challenging trying to live in this world today- especially for me who is very sensitive and caring. As much as I want to throw my hands up in disgust and believe that we are too far gone into hell for any recovery, I just can't allow myself to go there in my thoughts. If I focus on the negativity and evil that is abounding, I will give up and I will become apathetic. I must admit though that before the OWS movement, I was giving up hope. It was one single woman on this forum who lifted my spirit and encouraged me to continue to believe in the power of the people. She lit a fire in me once again. Yes, ordinary men and women like you and I can make a HUGE difference. That one woman changed my entire outlook. The Holy spirit is at work every day through that woman, OWS activists and through anyone else who wants to nurture this world and restore it's Divine value. I don't think we totally disagree. I just don't think that a single God or a single force of God comes along to fix and repair everything all at once. His wisdom works through us. We are His employees :D

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I agree with that the Holy Spirit works through people as well. But my faith is not in myself but in Jesus Christ because He is perfect and I am not. He is alive. He has all power and He his job is destroy the works of the devil and build the eternal Kingdom of peace and love which has started already. He does operate through people as well. But He is an independent moral being who can also work by Himself. He does not need us.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

If you have no faith in yourself or your own ability to heal the world then you cannot have true faith in God. When you deny any of your own divinity, you are denying that God's love and virtues live within you and you are denying His purpose for you on this earth. God would not have created you or anyone else in vain. That would make him a narcissistic despotic God. Do you not think that God wants the world to be as beautiful as it was when he created it? you do not feel any responsibility for caring for God's world? you believe you can behave any way you want because you're a pathetic sinner who can do no good and that God is going to save you anyway? Why would God create a pathetic sinner? No one is perfect, so what? We were not meant to be perfect. We were meant to evolve into wiser spiritual beings. What is the point of there being a great glorious God who created you if you believe that you cannot model his values?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I see another problem in your view. Justice. If we sin how can a righteous God look away? If there is a murderer and the judge says. Just do better next time I don't think the people will be happy. Must crime be punished in your view?

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

God gave us everything we need to live a happy, healthy life. If we choose to forsake those gifts, then so be it. You take medications and end up with side effects, you spend more money than you have and you go broke, you spend more time jealous and angry and you end up alone and miserable. God need not spend his time keeping records on everyone and punishing them because his universe is a perfect system of actions and consequences. If we poison the environment, we poison ourselves and eventually mother nature WILL respond with catastrophic events that serve to remind us to restore balance and harmony in nature. God is not looking away, he's observing everyone's spiritual character. Some Christians believe that when God judges them they will either go to hell or heaven but I don't focus on the end or the afterlife because I know nothing about that until the time comes. I'm not afraid of dying and besides, dying and paying taxes are the only things that are guaranteed in this life. I prefer to focus on the current moment and live as fully spiritual and passionately as I can. Crime must be punished in our civilization in order to maintain some level of law and order. But, the true crimes are not of the physical body but of the spirit. When we commit crimes, we are defeating our purpose, defeating ourselves and perpetuating evil and that my dear Mathias is a sin. Even folks who don't believe in God suffer the spiritual consequences of their crimes in one way or another- unless they are truly socipaths and lack any conscience. I remember once reading that our conscience is our soul and I believe that my conscience is also the voice of God reminding me to get back on the right path. :D

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Why did Jesus die? A kingdom is based on righteousness . no one hurting the other . everyone living in peace with each other. So a good and wise ruler must make sure that this is the case. A citizen must be righteous to be allowed to live there. The same is true with God. You must be righteous in order to live in His kingdom. So how do you become righteous. There is one possibility. You act rigtheous, you constantly obey the law of equal love and do not harm anyone anytime. This is called in the Bible the righteousness of works. So by your works you are righteous. This is the base of the law of Moses. But in case you break the law, your righteousness is gone. One consequnece is that you live in fear of breaking the law. God's kingdom is eternal but if your righteousness is based on the one on works you need to keep the law eternally and once you break it, you are out. We know that there is noone who can say already that he is free from sin. So God has always had another plan that He will provide a righteousness that will free us from the fear of death and transgressing the law. He provided an atonement for sin, so sins can be righteouly forgiven and this will be true in eternety. Jesus died for the sins of men. The innocent for the guilty. Now God offers us a new righteousness. By faith you can become righteous now. Abraham is the father of this righteousness. He believed God and God accounted it to his righteousness. Now you are free of the fear of death because your righteousness comes by grace and not by keeping the law of love contiously. This way you can stay with God eternally. Because in case you will sin there is the attonement of Jesus that will kick in and preserve your righteousness.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I am sorry that I can give you not another answer and that you reject it. You are not alone. As it is written that the message of the cross is folly to the Greeks, who seek wisdom, and an annoyance to the Jews, who want to be righteous by themselves. Your reply covers both aspects.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

Jesus died for the sins of men- That's what all Christians say and honestly, not to be disrespectful, but what you say makes no sense. What was the purpose in God sacrificing his own son for the purpose of us having eternal life? That's so simple minded and not indicative of any Divine plan. So our loving God gets so angry at the world that He created and decides to single out and sacrifice his only son? Why should God forgive us by punishing someone else? Matthias, this makes no sense really and actually sounds like the way that child abusers operate when they make an example of one child by abusing it to instill fear in the other chlidren to make them conform. There must be a much deeper lesson to be learned from Jesus' horrible death. And if Jesus' death saved humanity, then what's the point of having life on earth-a world steeped in such violence, hatred, bigotry, greed, murder, infidelity, etc..? What's the point of God bringing us into the world to suffer all this just so we can go to heaven anyway as long as we declare Christ as our Saviour? That in and of itself is also the same type of behavior used by psychopaths and cult leaders and abusers who keep abusing while promising to provide ' gifts', food or other good things.

I also do not live in fear of God or his rules. Living in fear of anything results in pretentious behavior- much like the Hebrews did in the presence of Moses. Their good behavior was not sincere, only motivated by fear. That's why so many people pray like crazy when their lives are in chaos. I don't need to be motivated, bribed or enticed in any way to behave righteously.

So, in case I sin the atonement of Jesus will kick in and preserve my righteousness? That's once again so utterly simple minded that it's difficult to believe that such a great God would devise such a plan for anyone. This is exactly why so many Christians behave like heathens and still expect forgiveness and eternal life with their Lord. Was it really necessary for God to sacrifice his own son in such a heinous method to teach us that we can have eternal life with Him despite our sins?

I just can't accept those rote Christian declarations without having more clarity. The way I see it, living an obedient life here on this sinful earth is a sacrifice that we make for each other and for God in order to preserve goodness in this world. Jesus lived an obedient life in harmony with God's laws and it was because of his righteous spiritual integrity in the face of greed and other evil-doers that he was crucified. In other words, we must all do the right thing even if it results in us dying do so. If we live in harmony with God's laws as Jesus did, if we live our lives defending what is right and nurture all that is good, then we can die knowing that we fulfilled God's purpose for us.

And, one more thing I take issue with. What if someone doesn't want to live in God's kingdom? Like the Muslims or the Buddhists? I mean, they have their own version of ' Kingdom" anyway. So, why do Christians feel the need to tell others that they need the same afterlife?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Ok what is your take of the next opinion of Charles Finney. Crime and punishment must be equal. You cannot sentence someone with the death penalty for speeding. Now if Jesus is sent to the earth and dies for the sins of the people to give them a chance to have eternal life and then you sin against this eternal good the just punishment must be eternal punishment?

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

Yeah, that's a toughie because every civilization operates under a different judicial code. Heck even in the USA, the states operate with different measures and even courtrooms have their own hidden agendas more often than not. I'm not a big proponent of our judicial system because it wreaks of corruption. So who decides what is the crime, what weight it carries and what type of punishment ? I guess it's probably best to know what is considered a crime in your jurisdiction/country, location. Speeding in Saudi Arabia can lead to someone being beheaded if they kill someone while they are speeding. Probably best not to speed there. hahahah
I don't really get the whole concept of Jesus dying for us to have eternal life. I mean, that would make him a martyr of sorts the way I see it. Maybe you can explain that to me? What I get from that is that Jesus died doing the right thing, believing in the right thing and that if we live our lives in the same way, we will have a soft heart and a conscience that is eternally free of guilt and not burdened with bitterness, regret or hate when we die. The eternal punishment in my opinion is lying there in one's final moments having any regrets. To die in that way would be hell wouldn't it?

[-] 2 points by Democracydriven (658) 3 years ago

I believe in God

I don't believe in Religion.

Religion is just another way to control with fear. And I damn sure don't want some laws being made by those control freaks (even though their motives might be honest)

After all of that, I would suggest that we pray/wish/hope/visualize for the success of this movement

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

But please consider the change not the church but Christians devoted to Christ brought about. Martin Luther toppled an international most powerful system set up by the church of Rome. No it is God who is the true advocate of the poor AND and the one who is not a respecter of persons and who cannot be bought with money.

[-] 2 points by Democracydriven (658) 3 years ago

I know religions of all form have done good deeds, but they also have done plenty of evil in God’s name

Religion is man's interpretation of what God wants us to do. And there are always those hoops you have to jump through (even waging war) or burn in hell

I connect with a power that we all have access to. It's called all kinds of names. I don't define it. I just use it when I need help or guidance.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You will know them by their fruit. The Bibles says clearly. He who says he knows God and sins is a liar. The root of our problems the that people leave God. Then they make idols (the bad forms of religion you have mentioned) or they make themselves to the supreme authority. The way to cure the world is returning to God via the true peophet Jesus Christ.

[-] 2 points by Democracydriven (658) 3 years ago

"The Bibles says clearly. He who says he knows God and sins is a liar" ---- That's the problem, the entities that define sin are men. And they use sin as a control mechanism. I know from what you are saying that you know the same thing called God as I do. I just don’t believe in the Religious packaging. I feel that when minds get aligned and are focused on the same goals things start coming together. That’s why people should ask the universe/God for help. Not for gifts, but for help and guidance (just ask, no rituals or crying etc.). Then pay attention things start happening.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I agree that if men decide what sin is we have a problem because it seems like that they legelize their pet sin and are harsh on the sins of others. Therefore I come to a different conclusion. We need God to define sin, so we are not hypocrites. Do we not all agee that the bases for not sinning is love your neighbor as yourself. Stealing is wrong, lying ... And now we are arrvving at the ten commandments. So I think that only the set of commandments revealed by God are not bias.

[-] 2 points by Democracydriven (658) 3 years ago

I agree, for most of us there is already an internal sense of right or wrong. We feel the benefits of love verses hate, help verses hinderance, greed verses sharing and on and on.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

May God bless you. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be filled.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

money is a means of exchanging goods and service

perhaps the soil of abstract representation

but not the root of disproportional representation

[-] 1 points by go99ers (31) 3 years ago

Why is there always some christian running around making everything about Jesus and GOD....give it a rest There's no GOD in our government or on Wall street

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Now if there is no God in govenment and WallST has it ever dawned to you that this exactly is the problem. Only Jesus stands up for the rights of the poor and needy.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 3 years ago

It's freaks like you that keep me out of the religion as well as the absurd principles you have listed.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What is absurd to not take interest. What is absurd to cancel all debts every 7 years? It protects the poor. That's it. What is wrong with that?

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 3 years ago

There is no reason to receive a loan if you can't pay it off. There is no guarantee that you will get money back so you charge interest. What is absurd about protecting your holdings and investments? What is wrong with protecting your properties and investments?

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The reason to receive a loan although you cannot take it off is poverty and mercy. The religion of Christianity is about mercy and fovrgiveness. The Lord's prayer goes like. Forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors.

[-] 1 points by Revolutionary (287) 3 years ago

Jesus said,"Do not include religion in the matters of governance which needs efficient and systems only."

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

ALl I know is that Jesus said that Hi sKinfdom is not of this world. It has the same meaning when He said that His followers are not of this world. They are not of the spirit of this world which is corrupt as OWS knows. It does not mean that it is not a Kingdom in this world. A Christian is a human being in this world but not of this world.

[-] 1 points by shield (222) 3 years ago

He wouldn't say anything about OWS. He would only discuss ideas and their merits as applied to the necessities of human life.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Why do you think so? Do you have any specific knowledge about God to back that up`?

[-] 1 points by shield (222) 3 years ago

Uh, yeah. God gave man free will and dominion over himself. He wouldn't say something dumb like OWS is this or that. It's not any one thing. To say that OWS is anything other than a forum for discussion is simply not true. Therefore, he would not bother to engage in conversation about OWS, but about the ideas that are being discussed.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

God is enganging in any step you take or word you say.

[-] 1 points by wellhungjury (296) 3 years ago

Nice how you combine the New and Old Testaments together or at least the parts that serve your agenda. The New Covenant that Jesus brought forth brings a different message than the Old Testament. If you are a follower of such things, then you should know this. Further, you bring forth teachings that not all peoples follow within the United States. That is why we discuss and vote on our approach to these issues. Sorry, it is not going to be all about God.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The Old Testament is about Jesus Christ as well. I agree that I bring forth teachings that not all people in the United States follow. But what does this have to do with wisdom and truth. Wisdom and truth is not related to whether or not the people of the United States follow it.

[-] 1 points by wellhungjury (296) 3 years ago

There is a lot of wisdom in the Bible. What you speak of in the old testament has to do with Jewish Law. What Christ brought to the table was a new covenant that showed a way to God through him, not law. As far as truth, respectfully, your truth is not necessarily the truth of others. Religion does not do well with absolutes when dealing with people of different faiths and beliefs.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I agree it does not do well when dealing with people of different faiths and beliefs but it does better than the status quo where the rich rule over the poor.

[-] 1 points by wellhungjury (296) 3 years ago

Original topic is what would Jesus think of the OWS. I suspect that it would be of little concern to him. His message is of the soul and it's path to heaven. The material world is of less concern. My point is, who are you really persuading with discussion of the Bible? Surely, there is an approach that can be more grounded in what all can relate too. More pointed, you turn people off with religious talk. Just sayin.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks for your concern. The Gospel has been pushed aside into the personal sphere although it is about the Kingdom of God. I believe and hope we are on a turning point when the rule of the godless will be broken and important aspects of life like the economy and politics will come to the truth as well.

[-] 2 points by wellhungjury (296) 3 years ago

Peace to you as well.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

May the Lord bless you too

[-] 1 points by OccupyCapitolHill (197) 3 years ago

Jesus would have never pushed his politics on someone else. Nor would he EVER have made his politics public. His "love of money" comment was in regards to individuals and how it was unhealthy to idolize and worship money above God. It was not a go-ahead for political protests. Jesus would have said nothing, one way or the other, about OWS.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Why do you think so. Has He said something like that. He said that He is a king. Does not a King primarily deal with politics?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 3 years ago

I agree with the sentiment here, but selecting Jesus rather than Abraham, The Buddha, Mohommad, or Krishna, for example, is inherently divissive. We must respect the virtues of the great religions, while not limiting the message to any specific religion.

One World, One People.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Jesus Christ is the truth, the life and the resurection. No one comes to God but through him.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 3 years ago

That's where your train leaves the track.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So what about the fact that there were 500 people seeing Him alive after He was crucified by the Romans?

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (8719) 3 years ago

I don't know, you'll have to debate that with a theologian. That should keep you busy until you know the truth for yourself.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I will turn to God and He will make an end to the rule of riches.

[-] 1 points by GildasSapiens (266) 3 years ago

Simple, dude - Jesus didn't die on the cross! That's why Pilate was recorded as being amazed when he was told Jesus had died. Pilate knew crucifixion took at least 2 or 3 days to kill, not the few hours Jesus had been up there. So he asked the centurion who supervised the crucifixion to confirm that Jesus had died, but the centurion was a secret follower of Jesus, so he lied so that Joseph could get Jesus to a place of safety where he could rest & recover from his ordeal. (Mark 15)

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

OK. now my version which is more in line with what OccupyWallSt fights against. Jesus was betrayed for money. The soldiers who were supposed to guard the tomb lied for money. Why? There is a big devide between money and God. You cannot serve both. Jesus was so much against riches being heaped up and not shared witht he poor. I am convinced that JESUS is the best friend of the cause of OWS

[-] 1 points by youngblood (1) from Eureka, CA 3 years ago

Hed be disapointed that he died for this.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The elite made Him go to the cross. ut the time is coming when He will take over the governments.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

Jesus would have supported the 1%:

Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I don't understand the meaning of the verses you quoted and the 1% Please explain.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@ Matthias : Its baffling to me that you don't understand scripture.

Matthew 5:17-20: This quote is saying support the authorities. " For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Ok I think I understand what you mean. The 1% are like the Pharisees and therefore our righteousness must surpass it. But I am not sure whether the righteousness of OWS surpasses the one of the 1%. I have talked to people on this forum who were not very nice towards God.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias: Its not God we are opposing.

So belief or non-belief is immaterial.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I am not so sure about that when you look at all people of OWS. Just read through this post and you will find commentors who seem to oppose God.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias: OWS is not about God or no God. You are reading to much unto posts by people who may not belong to OWS.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

This is not true. You seem to not want God in here. God is all in all and therefore in OWS as well.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias: I don't want to hurt your feelings, but not everyone thinks like that.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Not everyone, I agree, but not all either. If you read this post you will see that there are people who are on the side of Jesus Christ

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias What ever.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Were you Baptist?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

Yes

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I do believe so, because it is so consistent and embedded in consistent and logical texts of the Bible. I hope you will someday see it as well.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias There is no constancy in the bible and it is far from logical.

There is no evidence to support any of the claims made in the Bible concerning the existence of a god. Any ‘evidence’ proposed by theists to support the Bible’s various historical and supernatural claims is non-existent at best, manufactured at worst.

The Bible is not self-authenticating; it is simply one of many religious texts. Like those others, it itself constitutes no evidence for the existence of a god. Its florid prose and fanciful content do not legitimise it nor distinguish it from other ancient works of literature.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Now let us come to the core. Do you believe this one fact that Jesus Christ has lived, was killed and rose from the dead?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias: No

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Did you get baptized?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

no I didn't.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

There is no contemporary evidence for Jesus’ existence or the Bible’s account of his life; no artefacts, dwellings, works of carpentry, self-written manuscripts, court records, eyewitness testimony, official diaries, birth records, reflections on his significance or written disputes about his teachings.

Nothing survives from the time in which he is said to have lived.

All historical references to Jesus derive from hearsay accounts written decades or centuries after his supposed death.

These historical references generally refer to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus and, in some cases, directly contradict the Gospels or were deliberately manufactured.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

How do you want to verify a hand written account? How do you know it was Jesus? YOu have something much better. You have prophecies that were written down by the Jews hundreds of years before Jesus. They are authentic. And all of them came to pass. The place where Jesus was born the time and the circumstances. His death and so on.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias: Failed Prophecies:

saiah 17:1 "An oracle concerning Damascus: See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins."

FAIL: Damascus is still inhabited today with well over a million people and there was never a time where it ceased to be a city. It is widely known as being the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world.

Isaiah 19:4-5 "I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them, declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty. The waters of the river will dry up, and the riverbed will be parched and dry."

FAIL: The river mentioned here is the Nile which never dried up and is still one of Egypt's greatest natural resource.

Isaiah 52:1 "Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again."

FAIL: There are still uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.

Ezekiel 30:10-11 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army - the most ruthless of nations - will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain."

FAIL: Ezekiel predicts that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon will conquer Egypt utterly destroying it, slaying and scattering its people. Nebuchadnezzar killed many Egyptians and even the Egyptian king Necho II during a battle in Carchemish, but he never conquered Egypt. Nebuchadnezzar attempted conquering Egypt in 601 BCE and failed. In 568 BCE he tried again but Egypt still survived and the pharaoh Amasis II continued his reign from 570 until 526 BCE.

Egypt was conquered by the Nubian King Piy in 728 BCE, the Persians in 525 BCE, and Alexander the Great in 332 BCE. Never by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar.

Ezekiel 29:10-11 "therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. The foot of neither man nor beast will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years."

FAIL: Never in its long history has Egypt been uninhabited for forty years.

Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." 23:36 "I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation." 24:34 "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

FAIL: Jesus states in Matthew that all the signs marking the end of the world would be fulfilled before his generation ended, before the people that were standing infront of him "taste death." Those people have been dead for over 2000 years and the world did not come to an end, neither have all those signs been fulfilled.

Immoral God/Bible:

GOD IS NOT LOVE According to the Bible, God does not fit the definition of love given in 1 Corinthians 13, as God clearly "keeps a record of wrongs" or else there would have been no flood, amongst other things. Virtually the entire Bible describes God as a manipulative and controlling god, one who is fueled by jealousy, anger and violence. A God that is very unforgiving and seeks revenge through bloody massacres and supports slavery, rape, sexism, child abuse, murder, and discrimination. Just because one line says "God is love" does not make him so.

Negative Impact Christianity Causes:

LYING TO THE MASSES.

ATTACK ON EQUALITY.

MURDER BY FAITH HEALING.

ANTI MEDICAL RESEARCH.

ANTI FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

FATALLY BLURRING REALITY.

HINDERING EDUCATION.

HIV EPIDEMIC AFRICA.

GLORIFIED END TIMES.

CENSORSHIP.

BLUE LAWS.

CHRISTIAN TALIBAN.

TAX EXEMPTION.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Now I tell you the problem you face. You quote sources that tell a different story than the Bible. So tell me the sources and we will apply your scrutiny to them and they will probably utterly fail.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias: The Bible, King James Version.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I have a personal question. Have you been trained in Christian teachings when you were a child. I can imagine that you have been taught a lot.

[-] 2 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@ Matthias: Yes.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What happened?

[-] 2 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias: I realized that it was all mythology and superstition, just part of the religious competition going on in the Middle East.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 3 years ago

As we can see by this reply, it doesn't require religion to be divisive. It only requires small minds.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@richardkentgates: And you seem to have one.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 3 years ago

Indeed. Calling you out for your unwelcome divisiveness, the same you accuse the church of, makes me small minded. So so tiny.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@richardkentgates : Speaking the truth for truths sake is not small minded.

Not accepting the truth is.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 3 years ago

If Jesus were around today I think a lot of people would call him a hippie and tell him to go take a bath.

Large institutions have somehow managed to convince people that Christianity and Capitalism are the same thing, buy if you're going to believe the teachings of Jesus you should at least read them for yourselves.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@ alexrai: Christianity and Capitalism are the same thing. Jesus said to support the authority of mans institutions.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 3 years ago

Its been a while since I actually read the bible, but I think you're talking about a verse in Romans.

A good chunk of the NT is written by Paul after his vision on the road to Damascus; Paul never even met Jesus in the flesh. For whatever reason, Christians seem to completely ignore the gospel and gobble up whatever Paul says.

I think Jesus had a good message, but it's been screwed up quite badly by people from Paul onward. Especially with all the gnostic gospels getting punted out of the bible by the Romans... :p

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I agree with what you say. Thanks for the post.

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 3 years ago

I think, he would say prepare yourselves for the cross...Look what happened to me...I went against this system and like many before and after I was murdered for it...

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You are right, as we speak maybe millions of Christians are persecuted. We are not but how many stand up for the truth, that He is King over all govenments.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 3 years ago

He'd probably blend in the crowd just fine, and I'm sure he would be pepper sprayed by police, like other protesters.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Do you think the people would accept Him as their leader?

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 3 years ago

Who knows ... you're asking me to postulate a counterfactual?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Jesus is factual

[-] 0 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias: That's a Fallacy.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What is the most sold and read book in the world? What religion has the most adherents? What teaching has changed the world the most? All this a fallacy?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias: In the Middle ages most if not all people believed the Earth was flat.

The Church taught that the Sun revolved around the Earth and that the Earth was the Center of the universe.

Need I keep going on this track, the church,Religion, has been wrong on every count.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The popes in the Middle Ages do not represent the Bible.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias: You wrote "The popes in the Middle Ages do not represent the Bible".

How is this opinion justified?

What are your sources.

Please provide links.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Martin Luther's 95 thesis http://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

the middle ages happened in Europe

I don't know what was going on in Peru at the time

Voltaire - God thinks (Lyrics)

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@MattHolck: That's where Christianity was.

Are you trying to avoid the obvious, that your completely wrong.

[-] 1 points by DJSethMichaels (5) from Livonia, MI 3 years ago

It is interesting that Christ teachings are extremely economic in many cases and that economically his teachings are parallel with OWS. It is not a matter of joining an organized reliegion. It is a matter of having the open mindedness to link together all supportive strings that can be attached to an ideology in order to strengthen it. Christ teachings are among those strings. Do not perceive Christ as being synonymys with Christianity or you are choosing to be willfully ignorant. Look beyond what you see...

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

It does matter to join Jesus Christ because He has the power and authority. On one hand you need true and righteous solutions. But you also need power to enforce them. God has given Jesus all power over all authorities in heaven and on earth. So it is important to have Him on your side.

[-] 0 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@DJSethMichaels: You are willfully Ignorant for believing in Myths.

[-] 0 points by Cephalus (146) 3 years ago

I don't perceive Christ as being synonymous with Christianity, I don't perceive him at all. I have seen no evidence to suggest that he ever existed.

[-] 1 points by geo2seeit2 (39) 3 years ago

Man is not the problem,But the answer,its not men that do bad deeds, but THE spirit within. WWJD, dont hate the player hate the game. can you honestly walk up to the biggest banking crook and put you arms around him and forgive? if you can , youll release him from his own demon.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The spirit of man and man are the same thing. Are they not?

[-] 1 points by geo2seeit2 (39) 3 years ago

yes and no. you are what your spirit is comprised of.Ther are holy spirits,and demonic spirits....and for all that says leave god out... needs to let god in.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I think you have your own spirit. Now you can obey the devil of Jesus. DO you agree?

[-] 1 points by geo2seeit2 (39) 3 years ago

IF you feel like you have your own then your not demonic. just someone that likes to debate...these questions only can be answered by the look in your eyes.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

On what knowledge do you base that on. Have you rad it seomwhere?

[-] 2 points by geo2seeit2 (39) 3 years ago

Its called living with the holly spirit. Like a dog, learn to smell the bad bro. but with that you pray for the deliverance. real simple, god will give you power but you must not hate and one spoken word or gesture could be all that that person needs to change thier life. maybe that wall street banker is at the point of his own deliverance from his own sinful spirit. and you are the lonely preverbal straw , he sees you reach out to a stranger in need and then he GETs IT....gods work bro and he will put you in that spot and you may not even know.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

May the Lord bless you

[-] 1 points by CatalysticFrost (3) 3 years ago

Jesus would have been out there by himself... because once he started really laying into these hypocrites, most of us would not be able to stand the backlash. Some of us would have tried to shut him up... Silly question if you know anything about Jesus.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Why silly. Isn't He the true authority over mankind, society and the governments and all individuals?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Read the Bible. It is not time for Jesus to take up the throne. It's not time for Him to be our King yet. But the time is coming. In the meantime it is everyone's duty to themselves to search for God in their-selves. It is each individual's responsibility to seek out God and to try to be the best that they can be in trying to be a true believer.

When it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Man can not govern Man in peace health prosperity for "all". Then it will be time for God's Kingdom to return.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What do you make of Psalm 2 or my video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpLYq525SpM Isn't He the King of Kings already. Hasn't God given Him all authority already.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

He has been given all authority. It just is not time yet to exercise it. Look into Revelations - signs of the end times.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

If it is written all authority comes from God. So all authority comes from Jesus because God has given Him all authority. Isn't that true?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

1 points by Matthias (881) 1 minute ago

"He has been given all authority. It just is not time yet to exercise it. Look into Revelations - signs of the end times."

You have a problem with that statement?

All of the prophecies will be met before the return!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I don't have a problem with it, because I most probably have a different look at Revelations. Let's be honest. All of us follow other Christian's interpretatin of Revelation. I happen to favor the one of Jonathan Edwards, the revial preacher of the 18th century. He and others believe that the church will rule on earth in the 7th millenium which is starting as we speak. I am not 100% whether he is right. But I like it. What take of Revelation do you follow?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

The Bibles not mans. Follow a false prophet at your own peril. That is why every man ( that's Male & Female, child as well as adult ) is charged with seeking the truth for their-self.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So you have come with your interpretation of Revelation all by yourself?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

I have come to my present understanding through my studies through-out my life and I will not stop searching out truth, it is a life long search.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So what do you think about the millenium, the tribulation and the rapture. if I may ask?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

The rapture has not happened obviously, but will in it's time.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks for the link. I am curious: Are saved by faith or by works?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Faith!

Works will not save you as you ( "WE" ) are not perfect neither are your ( "OUR" ) works. That is why Jesus was sent.

But that does not let us off the hook to try and live a good life as our Father and Savior would want.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

And the millenium, when will this come?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Millennium? When? Do not know other then to tell you soon.

Here is some of "my" philosophy if your interested:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/do-i-have-a-heavenly-hope/

Remember place your trust in another man ( human/imperfect ) to lead you at your own peril as there will be many claiming to be the savior.

[-] 1 points by Farleymowat (415) 3 years ago

Jesus would tell all you occupiers to go feed the poor and clothe the naked and quit waiting for a tyrannical government to do it for you.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So what do you think about what I wrote. No interest on debt. Debt release every 7 years and redistribution of basic wealth(land) every 50 years?

[-] 0 points by Farleymowat (415) 3 years ago

That is similar to what the Jews were supposed to do as written in the old testament. It would be great, but this world is too greedy. I don't think people would go for it.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks for your comment. It is like fresh water if someone like you see the good in those rules. And you agree with your assessment. However I want to point out that the beauty of the Gospel is that God intervenes in our world and hearts by His Spirit. He is righteous and makes righteous. He gives a new heart and a new Spirit. This is why I am hopeful that eventually people will change. It is written that the land will be covered with the knowledge of God like the water covers the sea.

[-] 1 points by randart (498) 3 years ago

Jesus would be tipping over the tables of the money changers just like OWS.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

After Jesus drove out the moneychangers He said that the temple is supposed to be a house of prayer for all peoples. This inculdes you. Do you know that if I may ask?

[-] 1 points by randart (498) 3 years ago

Yes. We have talked before. I have studied the bible, the history of christianity, used Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, the Greek Septuagint, and Gnosticism.

The books in the bible were edited by the Catholic Church around the year 300 A.D. They decided what books should be included so as to support their power structure. Only after it was printed in common languages did people begin to see the truth as it pertained to them and it brought on all the reformation movements.

Personally, I believe that the Gnostics had the closest teaching to what Jesus said. God is in all of us and can not be told to you by others. I prefer that viewpoint.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I believe you that you prefer that. And I know that thought. But is this not the problem. We are tempted to believe what we prefer and not what the truth is.

[-] 2 points by luparb (290) 3 years ago

The truth is that God is incorporeal and the bible is a book.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

True, God is Spirit

[-] 1 points by randart (498) 3 years ago

Didn't Jesus say, when he was being asked if he were the son of God, that all men are sons of God. That sounds like a Gnostic tenet to me.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Not to my knowledge. He refered to Psalm 82 and it was directed to the authorities.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 3 years ago

and I have an invisible friend who is a six foot rabbit named harvey.

[-] 1 points by Marlow (1141) 3 years ago

What does your MIND and HEART with the Fall out of Man Written Words in a Book, and the Backward Beliefs of 2000 or more years ago of those who wanted Kings and prophecy to be their LOVE and Power over others..?

... well?

Are you a CHILD, ... or a Fully Matured Adult?

[-] 3 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

A child of God, to be precise.

[-] 1 points by nighttalker (57) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Obama is wrong. Fraud was illegal before the crisis; it's illegal now. During the savings and loan crisis, the George H.W. Bush administration sent about 3,000 white-collar criminals to jail.This administration has yet to send one. And it is for lack of trying! President Barack Obama has argued, as recently as last Sunday on “60 Minutes,” that what happened on Wall Street wasn’t criminal. “Some of the most damaging behavior on Wall Street,” the president told Steve Kroft, “in some cases, some of the least ethical behavior on Wall Street, wasn’t illegal. That’s exactly why we had to change the laws.” Obama is wrong. Fraud was illegal before the crisis; it’s illegal now. The Servicemember Civil Relief Act was signed in 2003. So it was already on the books. During the savings and loan crisis, the George H.W. Bush administration sent about 3,000 white-collar criminals to jail. This administration has yet to send one. And it is for lack of trying. Attorney General Eric Holder and his network of U.S. attorneys haven’t brought one criminal suit on illegal military foreclosures or foreclosure fraud. There have been enough books and investigations revealing rampant criminality in the housing bubble and now in foreclosure crisis. Yet Holder’s DOJ is still settling with banks to let them off the hook for illegal foreclosures on active duty troops. http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=656C8EEB-CE79-4C81-BC5D-73F207202B43

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So who determines the basics of what is illegal. Is it not God?

[-] -1 points by nighttalker (57) from New York, NY 3 years ago

What is your point?, that Obama is God?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

My point is that you were talking about legal and illegal. And I was pointing out that all law comes from God. I wanted to point out that we have a bigger issue than President Bush vs Obama. We have men vs God. Do both of them stand up for the law of God?

[-] 1 points by wellhungjury (296) 3 years ago

You are taking Old Testament law and mixing it with the new covenant that came from Jesus Christ. Jesus also said to render to Cesar what is Cesar's for it is not of the kingdom of heaven. Keep things in context. Jesus was here to save souls not make everyone wealthy. I know this is simplified and brief and I am sure people can punch holes in it if they wish. I just ask that you thank about the basis of what I tried to communicate and go from there.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks for your answer. I agree that Jesus came in the first place to free man from being slaves from sin. But He also came to free from outside oppression in the long run. In Psalm 2 you can read that the governments are commanded to serve Jesus Christ as well. Therefore when Jesus says that His kingdom is not of this world it means not of THE SPIRIT of this world. His kingdom will be the dominant kingdom in this world as it is prophesied in Isaiah. Can we agree on that?

[-] 1 points by wellhungjury (296) 3 years ago

His kingdom will be dominant, but it is still not of this world. I think people (not necessarily you) forget that things that happen in our world do not really mean much to things in the kingdom of heaven. Even death, which is pretty serious here in our physical world, means little in heaven. Honestly, I responded to your first statement because I think that trying to tie Jesus to our events on this world does not always mesh quite like we think it does. Good topic though and I think others can get extreme with this at times.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So where will the Kingdom be in Revelation chapter 20 when Satan will be bound?

[-] 1 points by wellhungjury (296) 3 years ago

Where? As in a location? I do not think that heaven is a location, nor is the binding of Satan a physical binding. Through progressive revelation, these things will be revealed to us. Currently, my understanding is that things that happen in Revelations are metaphoric descriptions of non-physical things. Described in a way that man can shall we say, "wrap his head around it".

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Now should the governments rule in the Spirit of Christ.?

[-] 1 points by wellhungjury (296) 3 years ago

Absolutely not. They could not if they wanted to anyway. Trying to bring this back around in my head. Where you going with this?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

If they do not rule in the spirit of Christ they rule in the spirit of corruption. Show me ONLY one government that is not ruling in the Spirit of Christ and is NOT corrupted!

[-] 1 points by wellhungjury (296) 3 years ago

Better yet, show me a government that is not corrupt.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Look this is no news for the Bible. And God is very well aware of this and will react. In Revelation 2 chapters are devoted on the downfall of this mystery power that corrupts the governments.

[-] 1 points by AndyJ0hn (129) 3 years ago

corruption is a the root of the problem in governments all over the world, from China, Russia, Europe and USA

[-] 2 points by wellhungjury (296) 3 years ago

That is my point. Any government that wraps itself in the cloth of a religion has no guarantee that it will remain pure from corruption. Just the introduction of "man" into the process will assuredly introduce corruption. Not saying that we should give up trying.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

And the Mad Hatter said, "What, another special interest group corrupting the governance of the US, looking to continue a tax loophole.? I am going back down my hole."

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So what do you think God could do to help the 99%

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

This is one time the GOP is right (correct). You are on your own.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Why am I on my own if there is God willing to help His children?

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

Let me know when you get rid of corporate, and nonprofit campaign donations.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Do you know what happened in East Germany.It was communist and there people who prayed in a church on Mondays. After a couple of years this church was the epicenter of the downfall of communism. Huge mass demonstartions started out at that church on Mondays. Faith moves mountains.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

And mountains move faith.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I am sorry I cannot quite follow. What do you mean by that?

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 3 years ago

S/he means that your fervent anti-communist / anti-socialist rhetoric, coupled with your antiquated, superstitious, belief-system puts the cart before the horse in that it leverages a flawed form of 'inductive reasoning' to argue that because A happened to chronologically correspond with B, A is therefore - ipso-facto - the single primary causal factor for B's occurrence.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Ok then tell me why the communist system was gone after a couple of weeks in East Germany and WallSt is still functioning as always. Now you tell me.

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 3 years ago

Very Well...

Wall St., the U.S. economy, the global financial markets, and the global capitalist system have not been functioning properly for some time. The only thing that has buoyed the U.S. economy in that face of massive graft, corruption and malfeasance has been the enormous bailouts over the past few years using purely fiat currency.

As for the so-called "collapse of Communism", much of the U.S.S.R.'s demise owed to the antiquated, authoritarian, and thoroughly hierarchical, means of political control instituted by Stalin and by his administration's arguably misguided application of Socialist ideas. Just like the U.S., once the U.S.S.R. abandoned it's core Democratic principles, their entire socio-political system began to unravel.

We are now experiencing the same thing in the West as neo-feudal, quasi-fascist state corporatism dominates the economic dialogue, the 99% struggle to have their voices heard, and political parties fragment and scramble to reorganize in response to the rapidly changing public discourse.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/communism-is-the-way-to-go/#comment-513577

http://occupywallst.org/forum/nutshell-is-back-new-and-improved/

http://metapolitik.org/nutshell

http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

But why do the governments go the same route whether communists, capitalist or monarchs?

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 3 years ago

Beaus they are usually based on the same type of antiquated, hierarchical, top-down, paternalist model of authoritarian rule.

People are not always terribly imaginative. It is difficult to break from old habits when you don't have another 'model' to use as an example of the right way.

Thus, revolutions happen and then the revolutionaries inadvertently recreate the very problems that they sought to solve in the first place by creating the same kind of power structures that existed before them.

Until we develop a more to a cooperative model instead of an authoritarian one. We will repeat this process until our species is extinct.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The punishment of the fool is his folly. So freedom means wisdom The sinner is enslaved by his sin. So freedom means freedom of sin

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 3 years ago

'The Fool' is the Jester who's job it is to tell the King the truth - that which the King does not want to hear.

'The Fool' is the child who screams: "the Emperor has no clothes"

'The Fool' cuts through illusions with the clarity of his insight.

'The Fool' is the wisdom of innocence and the bravery and fortitude required to call out the thieves and the money changers from the temple.

'The Fool' is embodied in the spirits of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. and J.F.K. and all the others out there who were 'foolish' enough to try and make the world a better place.

And while Obi Wan might ask: "Who's the bigger fool - the fool or the fool who follows him?"...Others have noted that: "Everybody plays the fool sometimes".

The truth of the matter is that were it not for 'Fools' like Tesla, Fuller, Einstein, Jesus... And the lady that figured out how to bake bread... Without FOOLS, our society would never have left the caves or figured out how to harness fire.

Why do you think Prometheus was chained to a rock?

Why do you think they nailed Christ to that tree?

Why do you think there's a Burning Man?

'The Fool' may be a fool, but he is the wisest of us all.

Long live The Fool!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Democracies and seperation of power was such a novel idea and what happened? The same structures. And if you say anarchy is the answer. According to my knwoledge there was some sort of anarchy after the downfall of the Roman Empire. It was chaos and the rule of the sword. Why because ALL men are sinfull inducding you and me. That is why God send Jesus to perfect advocate of the poor.

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 3 years ago

People who cal for "Anarchy" are generally primarily concerned with Individual "Freedom" (aka: Liberty).

And while Liberty is perhaps the greatest value held by our society, most people don't really seem to have a clue what it means in practice.

They tend to confuse "Liberty" with "Freedom",

But Freedom to do what exactly?

To own a bunch stuff?

As though "material prosperity" were the only method for measuring the degree of "Liberty" that a society has achieved.

For really poor people, "economic freedom" is utterly meaningless. For them, it's just freedom to starve.

For all you right-wingers, tea-partiers and libertarians out there who whine about constantly about taxes and "punishing job-creators" (yeah right), be thankful that the government is keeping the poor well enough fed that they don't decide to storm your gated communities.

To all of you protesters that consider yourselves "Anarchists", please remember: Big Business LOVES anarchy because it means that there are no safeguards in-place to keep corporations and banks from riding roughshod over everyone else.

Governments proper role is to protect the people and to regulate economic interests. Not protect economic interests and regulate the people - which is what's now happening.

As for:

"Democracies and separation of power [being] such a novel idea"

...That's complete bunk.

The Greeks codified the principles of Democracy thousands of years ago and small communities have likely been practicing Direct-Democracy in one form or another since shortly after our species learned to walk upright.

Other fictions that we are taught include:

  • That the US practices an authentic form of Democracy
  • That the Greek (Plato) developed the idea of a "Republic" (You can actual thank the Romans for this deliberate mis-reading of Plato's work)
  • That "freedom", "liberty" or "democracy" are remotely attainable without corresponding economic equality.
  • That "freedom", "liberty" or "democracy" are really what "capitalism" is all about.

As for God and Jesus...

I don't need antiquated, patriarchal superstitions to determine the difference between right and wrong, thank you. But if Jesus wants to show up and help kick the money changers out of the temple (so-to-speak), I'm all for it.

Hell, I'll even pray for it.

But don't hold your breath.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

And the Mad Hatter?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by that. Please explain it.

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 3 years ago

Before we make foolish assumptions we must make sure we understand the concept of "religion". Then we must understand our concept of god. Only after knowing and understanding these two can we then formulate our thoughts. We must also make sure to know who Jesus was before we blurt out what we "think" who he was and what he thought. This is not a simple question to answer, and cannot be answered simply. We must think this through thoroughly first. How can we know what Jesus thought? Were we there to witness his existence? We only have texts written by people other than jesus, how can we be sure they are right?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Jesus said if someone wants to do the will of God He will know the truth that Jesus is not speaking from himself but that He speaks what he hears God say.

If someone does not want to do the will of God He will reject the notion that Jesus says the truth in Bible.

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 3 years ago

Again that is your conception of what god said and where the word of god came from. Let us not forget that the bible was "written" by humans. And these humans claim many things were said and happened. How can we be sure anything of what they say is true? With your reasoning it sounds like you're saying: no one can be good unless they follow the teachings of the bible. Please try to answer with your own reasoning and not with passages from the text we are analyzing.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Ok, with my own words. When I was a teanager I lived without caring about God. My brother was telling me to study the Bible and turn to God. After a couple of years I decided to read the Bible from beginning to end. In the beginning it was very intersting because it was so different from what I expected. When I came to the Gospels the situation changed becaue suddenly Jesus preached to me as well. I did not like what I read I destroyed all the main wishes I had for my life. It was very tought and I was a spoiled brat. So then I tried to find a way out. The more I had critical objections to what was said the more they were refuted by logic. I was rounded up by arguments truth and logic. I had to come to the conlusion that it is the truth. God has come to us on this planet and He told us exactly what is going on.

You might expect that I turned to God. I did not. Although knowing the truth I refused to yield to God because I loved my dolc vita.

I took me another 7 years to finally come to Him. All the time when I had questions or obejctions God answered. I cannot deny that. It was scary and amazing. He answered.

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 3 years ago

I am an agnostic, meaning I don't know if I believe or if I don't. All I'm sure about is that this world is in danger and the people are suffering. They should not suffer. At the moment people don't believe we can change much, I disagree. If people who believe in God wish to help, then they can, it is their right. I welcome them with open arms, because they understand and see what the truth is. When we say the 99% we must mean it for all people. The people remain "the people", and should not be divided by any categorization based on anything. You are a believer, I am not. We are not so different you and I. There are only different ideas and points of view, not different people.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I see a problem. The 99% suffers also because of the 1%. But we also suffer because of our own unrighteousness. Jesus came to set men free. The root of captivitiy is their own sin. So Jesus wants us to set free all the way. From outer and inner oppression. Do you admit that we suffer from out own faults as well?

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 3 years ago

What faults do you mean?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Love your neighbor as yourself.

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 3 years ago

Yes, I keep hearing people say that our nature is evil or that we are natural sinners. It makes think that people's minds are suffering. What does the good book say about our nature? I see some do good, it is almost as if evil has invaded and occupied our minds. It is almost as if people think that good can never be achieved anymore. That it is a waste of time to try, like jesus did.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Are you free of any evil?

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 3 years ago

I think so.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You love God with all you heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself continously?

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

---------------Had to erase it because it answered an erased comment

[-] 1 points by Durandus (181) 3 years ago

If the testimony of Jesus means anything, along with his kind who are revered across the globe for good reason, its because of the Humane Values that he and they avow. It's not a question of supporting or promoting religious lunacy, all too common among proponents of institutionalized religion, and the Dogma of salvation in the hereafter; but of recognizing that Moral Values, what I am calling Humane Values, or the lack thereof, are at the heart of the kind of abuses that Occupiers are devoted to overthrowin.

I would agree that Religion is a hoax, and that the bread and butter of xtianity is irrational hockum...but to cast-off Jesus and his testimony because men have used and abused his insights is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's just another form of the hierarchical strata of conceit that says: Truth is thus and not otherwise, therefor those who do not apply themselves to our version of the Truth are not to play in our game of truthtelling and reformation. It's a conceit on par with every proud and authoritarian Dogma that enslaves the minds of men and limits the venues of our animating inspirations. It's just plain misguided.

Within this Spiritual Tradition is the notion that there are forces at work in the world to enslave Humanity; and not the least of these is the service that mankind gives to Mammon, the god of riches, for which good reason Jesus said: "You cannot serve BOTH God and Mammon, for you will cling to the one and hate the other."

Now, we needn't translate the term God into a xtian idea of Supreme Diety, but we can translate God into Humane Values and contrast that perfectly with the inhumane values of wealth acquisition that drives the corruption of politics and enslavement of native peoples, among the other captives of this dominant system. Further, in this Spiritual Tradition there is embodied the notion that Two forces work together for the enslavement of humanity...the False Prophet, whom we can readily and directly equate to Poltics (what Force is best suited to organize society based upon agreed values) and Antichrist, whom we can just as directly and immediately equate with the inhumane value of Wealth, or Mammon in the lexicon of this Spiritual Tradition. Taken together, this alliance of Politics and Wealth constitute a direct parallel to the Vision this tradition has of a world enslaved by evil, against which is proposed a Cooperative Model based on Humane Values...a kind of Brotherhood of Man, imbued with a spirit of Generosity and mutual Rescue.

I would urge that Occupiers not too easily dismiss the power of this language and metaphor as being out-of-place, as an unprejudiced look at the heart of this tradition, I believe, reveals a close accord with the Humane Values Occupiers hold to and those proposed by this and other Spiritual Traditions. To cringe at and disclude such a discourse from our efforts here is short-sighted, if not narrow minded, and robs Occupy of yet another angle of attack upon the Powers bent on our enslavement...which Powers, btw, will not hesitate nor have hesitated, to use this tradition to the advantage of their propoganda machine, especially in America...and one should be shrewd enough to be able to fight the enemy on their own terms, or yield some part of the field to THEIR encampment.

I happen to cringe at much of this original posters manner and emphasis, however, as do probably most here. But that does not disaude me from adopting an angle of attack that speaks directly to the problem here and involves language and metaphors suited to that.

Occupy Christianity!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I can see that you reflect on post and thinking is very good. It is by wisdom good policies are made. It is by folly to corrupt the system and seek unjust gain. But what is the source of wisdom? Wisdom is based on righteousness. righteousness is based on a love for all or equal love. The problem in your world view is that there is not one human who can say that he has cleansed his heart, he is free from sin.

I am happy to say that Jesus is pure in heart and He does has ultimate wisdom and he is alive.

So I advice you to think about the possibility of tapping into the wisdom of Jesus. Come to Him because He delights in giving wisdom.

[-] 1 points by Durandus (181) 3 years ago

I have read your posts, matthias...and I acknowledge your sincerity. I do not, however, support a dogmatic defence of your doctrine of salvation, except to day that, in the words of Jesus: "Whoso is not against us if for us."

Simply put...whoever loves, is born of God; for God is love. That's really the long and short of it, and I see no good reason to buy-into what appears to be your institutionalized doctrine of salvation...while reference to Wisdom opens up another discussion that takes us to an era that is pre-christian and which does not at all require mankind to adopt your emphasis upon Jesus the person. If you wish to speak of the spirit of Christ as the Annointed...that's a different story, which better suits a reasonable discussion upon the Humane Values at the heart of our (humanity's) Wisdom Tradition. But we shouldn't confound the two.

You may remember that the ministry of Jesus was characterized as being in the Order of Melchizadec...which historically falls to Shem, son of Noah, and consiquently to Caananite tradition, one of whose princple dieties was the Morning Star, whom we identify as Venus (goddess of love)...and in Revelations Jesus says "I am the britght and Morning Star."

So, you can see why it is difficult for an thinking person at all familiar with the Historical Evidence to conclude in favor of your fairly narrowing emphasis. Religious language is highly metaphorical, going through many stages of mutation through the ages, and to cling to Christianity's fairly childish and certainly narrow emphasis of meaning is just another invitation to Cultism...the Personality Cult which they have made of the person of Jesus. So, I'm just pointing out to you that We can agree upon a very broad use of metaphorical terms for the same purpose, quite apart from fixating on Dogmatic, cultish ideas, which in my book is tantamount to Idolatry. Best wishes.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

May I ask you a question? Were you educated in Christianity when you were a child. You are well informed so I assume that either your parents or Sunday School teachers put a lot of effort in teaching you. Am I right?

[-] 1 points by Durandus (181) 3 years ago

Well, one of my parents felt it was a good idea to be catechized...so I'm familiar with the tenets of xtianity...and throughout my adult life, being interested in Intellectual History, I have spent some time tracing the driving ideas of Western Civilization...graduating college with a major in Liberal Arts concentrating on Cultural and Literary Criticism. That's not to say I have no spiritual devotions...I do...but I look to aesthetics and historical criticism as my 'tool' for grasping what may be the central importance of any given idea, moral/intellectual. I just wish that the best of our hoped-for future may prevail, whatever that takes.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thank you. May the Lord bless you.

[-] 1 points by Durandus (181) 3 years ago

And you, also.

[-] 1 points by randart (498) 3 years ago

I think he spoke in Aramaic so I wouldn't understand a word he said. I suspect I would see the truth in his eyes, if he actually existed.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks to translators you can hear him speak in over 2000 languages. What makes you not believe it?

[-] 1 points by sixtyandsickened (3) 3 years ago

Hopefully we can get the other side to pray for forgiveness. Some of the worst acts are in the attached video...Thought you might be interested in this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNLKel-g6u4

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What do you mean by that? That WallSt won't get forgiveness?

[-] 1 points by sixtyandsickened (3) 3 years ago

He might say "Use the Talents you have and fear no man" I just saw the attached video and was blown away. Thanks to the artist Tijon!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNLKel-g6u4

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

It is true that He says fear no man because they can only kill your body and after that they have no power. But He continues to say but fear God. which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Do you know that?

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

Du bist klugscheizer.

The Revolution has a new theme song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ

http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You should use a different translation machine. It is not working very well. Anyway I wish you all the best. Take care

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

No that's the correct way, unless I'm supposed to use ein or eine, anyways, you understand.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You are something. You have a problem accepting the truth. Now you even argue about German. It is Klugscheißer or if you don't have ß ist is Klugscheisser.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

Yes, the funny looking B equals two s. I told you that my message was understood. :P

The Revolution has a new theme song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ

http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

But don't forget the revolution started 2000 years ago when Jesus died for the sins of the world. Do you have forgiveness of sins?

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

I am without sin.

The Revolution has a new theme song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ

http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

We know what you're really up to matthias:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5607154056114176603#

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 3 years ago

Jesus should have gotten a job!!!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Ok, you tried a joke. But have you ever thought about that the problems the US faces and OWS protests against is a systematic problem throughout the world throughout history? Governments are corrupted by gifts of money and riches? Why is it? WIth a narrowminded approach you will not solve the problem?

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 3 years ago

lulz. Something flew over your head. What would you say if I told you that the government declared the world as a battlefield?

http://armedservices.house.gov/index.cfm/files/serve?File_id=23d194d7-78c9-4c57-b2d9-31bc3bb7daeb

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Yesterday I figured that the world is a battlefield. All or most governments are against the Lord to be King. Many persecute Christians and the other part permit the country to be flooded with all kinds of evil like greed.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 3 years ago

Persecute Christians? Every president for many years has been christian and it's a controversy if they're not, like Romney and what some of them do to Obama even though he's a christian himself. Sorry but in the USA, the christians are far from persecution. Members of the Jesus club actually persecute people in the name of jesus all the time. The KKK. The westboro baptist church, the catholic church's cover up of child molesting, the heavily christian GOP and their in the name of the bible attack on gay rights. Obviously there are a ton of amazing christian people out their who practice their religion respectfully, but the christian faith is not persecuted in anyway.

Why would Jesus want to be King? Kings are dictators.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The USA is not the only country in the world. I know that Americans are not too interested in the rest of the world. But if you look around the persecution of Christians is very high WORLDWIDE. You asked an interesting question. Why would Jesus want to be King? Maybe because he realizes that He is the only one erernally faithful to take care of the weak and rule in righteousness.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 3 years ago

If Jesus is eternally faithful why isn't he taking care of the weak right now? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do christians pick and choose which aspects of the bible to believe in and follow? Why don't Christians gouge out an eyeball if their eye causes them to sin? That is in the bible.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Jesus sows His word. It is up to people whether it is taken away by the devil, or whether they fall away immediately or whether riches, pleasures or worries choke it OR whether it bears good fruit. Final judgement will show what group someone belongs to. Now to the question why he is not taking care of the weak right now. First of all He does, but not on a global scale. But you are right it is not on a global scale. I am not Jesus so I can give you only thoughts I have: He is patient with evil doers. He wants all people to repent and be saved. So he gives them time. Secondly everything is made for a purpose. suffering is awful but not all the way. It has also helpful effects. Like people seeking the Lord again. Not all poor people seek His help. Actually some of them are very much against Him. He is in charge of all the world. We are only aware of a tiny little part. He sees all factors involved, we see only a tiny part of it. He is good we are not. I can imagine that my answer is not satisfying. I am sorry but I am a human whoes understanding is like a sandcorn at the beach. May the Lord give you the answer.

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 3 years ago

Why do christians pick and choose which aspects of the bible to believe in and follow?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

If it is true that I do that I must change. Please tell me what part I leave out.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 3 years ago

How come Christians don't gouge out their eyeball if they use it sinfully? The bible says you're supposed to do that. Matthew 18:9

Like if you look at your neighbors wife or friend's husband and think sexual thoughts.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You are right if you look at her lustfully you must take drastic steps. But this applies to you as well because you have heard it. How come you know so much?

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 3 years ago

It does not apply to me for I do not believe the Bible to be true.

I don't know everything about the Jesus faiths but when you have a lot of people trying to tell you that a guy could walk on water and the sky rained blood and that a guy saved all life forms on a boat... and they're everywhere... it's nice to know what they're about. So I've read quite a few aspects of the bible, done some online research, and I've talked with members of the Jesus faiths.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I guess you cannot be convinces of the truth of Jesus Christ right now. Maybe later in life when you face a crisis you cannot solve don't forget that Jesus is real, alive and very gracious. Anyway I wish you all the best.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 3 years ago

I guess you can't be convinced of the truth that it's all made up.

"Maybe later in life when you face a crisis you cannot solve don't forget that Jesus is real."

Manipulation of the weak is immoral.

Dinosaurs.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So if you don't believe that Jesus was raised from the dead then you must think that all the main preachers of Christiantiy lied with fully knowing it. But did they lead a life full of suffering and even death for something they knew to be wrong. I agree that if some American Christian preachers make tons of money. So if it is wrong they lived in luxury but those people were persecuted and still they preached that Jesus is risen.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 3 years ago

A religion holds power. To think that it is impossible for people to hold so close to a lie gives credence to such big lies as Scientology. Those people go around telling everyone it's true.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Where you train in Christian doctrine when you were a child?

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 3 years ago

My mom was raised Catholic but she lost all of her faith after being abused by nuns in her elementary school and witnessing a ton of abuse toward other children as well. She took us to a Christian church when we were little but my brother and I didn't like it so she didn't make us go..

Now we're all happy and moral people with no set belief structure of a God. In my honest opinion I think all religions hold no truth. I think the mystery of life and the after life cannot be explained by any person on this Earth. Not in this time at least.

__

Without life, there is no meaning. And that is the meaning of life.

That is my personal philosophy on existence.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

The Revolution has a new theme song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ

http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You seek deliverance from the power of corruption from the oppression of unjust gain. People will sing the song of Moses, when God delivered His people from the oppression of the Egyptians. Put your trust in Jesus Christ. All power is given to Him and He will free the oppressed.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

You need to convert. Then you won't be so weak.

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Salomon says: The patient one is better than the strong one.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

You're just making excuses because you want to watch the world burn. You speak the tongue of the Great Satan's night slaves because you are one.

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I think the Revolution should start with your opinions about good and evil.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

Okay, I'm good and your evil.

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What makes you good?

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

I don't pray at the feet of the Great Satan.

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Who told you that He is Satan?

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

The same one who told me about your latent homosexual tendencies. Dude, you just have to come out of the closet. Everyone already knows anyways. You can't change who you are. You're just going to have to deal with it.

The Revolution has a new theme song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ

http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Who is he?

[-] 2 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

Lou Reed

The Revolution has a new theme song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ

http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Are you on drugs?

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

You're just going to have to come to grips with the fact you like to make love to men. Besmirching me won't change that.

The Revolution has a new theme song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ

http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 0 points by Doc4the99 (591) from Washington, DC 3 years ago

General Jack D. Ripper: Your Commie has no regard for human life, not even of his own. For this reason men, I want to impress upon you the need for extreme watchfulness. The enemy may come individually, or in strength. He may even appear in the form of our own troops. But however we must stop him. We must not allow him to gain entrance to this base. Now, I'm going to give you THREE SIMPLE rules: First, trust NO one, whatever his uniform or rank, unless he is known to you personally; Second, anyone or anything that approaches within 200 yards of the perimeter is to be FIRED UPON; Third, if in doubt, shoot first then ask questions later. I would sooner accept a few casualties through accidents rather losing the entire base and its personnel through carelessness. Any variation of these rules must come from me personally. Any variation on these rules must come from me personally. Now, men, in conclusion, I would like to say that, in the two years it has been my privilege to be your commanding officer, I have always expected the best from you, and you have never given me anything less than that. Today, the nation is counting on us. We're not going to let them down. Good luck to you all.

[-] 0 points by Doc4the99 (591) from Washington, DC 3 years ago

get your kill face on son...locked cocked ready to rock. 6 foot 6 and bullet proof.

General "Buck" Turgidson: Mr. President, we are rapidly approaching a moment of truth both for ourselves as human beings and for the life of our nation. Now, truth is not always a pleasant thing. But it is necessary now to make a choice, to choose between two admittedly regrettable, but nevertheless distinguishable, postwar environments: one where you got twenty million people killed, and the other where you got a hundred and fifty million people killed. President Merkin Muffley: You're talking about mass murder, General, not war! General "Buck" Turgidson: Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.

“Nunquam Ante Numquam Iterum” "...If it concerns anything not in our control, be prepared to say that it is nothing to you…” “Some things are up to us and some are not up to us. Our opinions are up to us, and our impulses, desires, aversions— in short, whatever is our own doing…So remember, if you think that things are naturally enslaved are free or that things not your own are your own, you will be thwarted, miserable and upset; and will blame both gods and men…And if it is about one of the things that is not up to us, be ready to say, “You are nothing in relation to me.” “There is only one way to happiness and that is to cease worrying about things, which are beyond the power or our will. ” “It is not so much what happens to you as how you think about what happens." “Never say that I have taken it, only that I have given it back.” “Only the educated are free.” “It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows.” “Work, therefore to be able to say to every harsh appearance, "You are but an appearance, and not absolutely the thing you appear to be." And then examine it by those rules which you have, and first, and chiefly, by this: whether it concerns the things which are in our own control, or those which are not; and, if it concerns anything not in our control, be prepared to say that it is nothing to you…” Epictetus

[-] 0 points by Doc4the99 (591) from Washington, DC 3 years ago

I don't drink

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

You would if the girl in that video was buying. I'm glad I made your day. Now that I have your attention, make your you read about Toshiba and Enterprise Rent A Car, the songs are used to get people's attention.

[-] 0 points by Doc4the99 (591) from Washington, DC 3 years ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/

stop wasting our time. you're an idiot. busted; what your posting about has nothing do with occupy my Muslim brother...

kill Toshiba; kill rent a car... go phuck yourself fool

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

You are not the boss of me, pervert.

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Turn to Jesus and pray to Lord Almighty, and then you will have help.

[-] 0 points by Doc4the99 (591) from Washington, DC 3 years ago

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now am found, Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear. And Grace, my fears relieved. How precious did that Grace appear The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares I have already come; 'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far and Grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me. His word my hope secures. He will my shield and portion be, As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail, And mortal life shall cease, I shall possess within the veil, A life of joy and peace.

When we've been here ten thousand years Bright shining as the sun. We've no less days to sing God's praise Than when we've first begun.

"Look ye, countrymen and Thebans, this is Oedipus the great, He who knew the Sphinx's riddle and was mightiest in our state. Who of all our townsmen gazed not on his fame with envious eyes? Now, in what a sea of troubles sunk and overwhelmed he lies! Therefore wait to see life's ending ere thou count one mortal blest; Wait till free from pain and sorrow he has gained his final rest."

  • Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Interesting mix. However I don't understand it. Please explain.

[-] 1 points by PatriotSon01 (157) 3 years ago

The Founding Fathers came to this country to escape persecution of their religious beliefs. THEY set up the government such that Clergy and Politicians DO NOT MIX. They don't and never have. This thread, while inspiring, has no place in the debates ongoing in this country relating to the current political corruption.

[-] 2 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

And look where we are today...being persecuted by right wing Christian fundamentalists today in America. So,actually, in a round about a way, this thread does have significant relevance in this effort to restore law and order in this country. The scary thing is that the Christian fundamentalists who are persecuting us are hardly Christian and using God, Christianity and Jesus as their platform to manipulate and control the population through fear of the unknown. GWB often made comments like ' you're either with us or against us' and insinuated that pacifists were not patriots and even told us that it was GOD who inspired him to go to war. I agree that religion and politics should not mix but we can't deny that religion has always been at the root of political agendas for obvious reasons. If the citizens of this world would live some moral and ethical code derived by their own spiritual relationship with God or any other manifestation there of, then we would not be in the hell we are in today ( assuming that God represents all that is loving and good).

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I try to sort out the facts of what you said. The puritans came to the US in 1620. The Declaration of Independence was in 1776. There was not one Puritan in the Constitutional Convention. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention 3 were Cathlic, 28 were from Church of England, 8 were Presbyterians, 7 were Congregationalists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Dutch Reformed, and 2 were Methodists. And then you had the none Christians. At that time Methodism was florishing in England and they could persue theit faith without persecution. IN fact John Wesley the founder of Methodism said about the uproar in the Colonies that it is about taxes. 42 of the delegates were either operators of slave operated plantations or farms or businessmen. I do not believe that all or most these people went to the USA because they were religiously persecuted.

The Pilgrims were devout people devoted to the law of God which says that you do not rebell against the authorities. The pilgrims did not start a rebellion in England or the Netherlands but they went away.

The Founding Fathers did rebell against the King of England and had no problem to shed blood to persue that interest. While some of them kept slaves they were complainig against the King of England that he does not give them enough say in government. Look I know that there is big pride in the USA on the Founding Fathers and I also know that children are taught to look at them as very good people but I am from Europe and must tell you that it is a huge hypocricy to rebell against the King of England and deny slaves any rights while proclaiming that all men are created equal. Chrisitanity is very opposed to hypocricy.

Most important I must tell you that you seem to have a false nothion of the Christian religion. Jesus did not come to only set up a new church with clergy and church goers but he came to set up a new Kingdom.

In a Kingdom there are religious pastors but also authorities who are likewise commanded to obey God's King, Jesus Christ. Each one according to his office.

Jesus is the true ruler also over the USA. But the Founding Fathers decided to not only rebell against the King of England but also to not include Jesus Christ as head of the USA:

I know very well that all nations I know act likewise. Jesus is thrown out of government.

And what is the fruit of it. One of the main fruits is what OWS demonstrates against. The rule of riches over politics. But is it anything new? Were the slaves of George Washington any better of than the people who suffer in the USA?

The USA was founded on slavery and the spirit is there to this day.

[-] 1 points by forOWS (161) 3 years ago

Jesus would welcome all OWS protesters and supporters with welcome arms. If He was here on Earth.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

But do you think the OWS protesters are welcoming Him?

[-] 1 points by EngageJustice (8) 3 years ago

Jesus would scale the tallest mountain throw his hands to the sky and shout "God bless everyone in the whole universe and bring peace and love to all life forever and ever till the end of time" AMEN.

[-] 1 points by forOWS (161) 3 years ago

Jesus is not coming back. This planet, as anyone can plainly see, is ruled by Beelzebub itself. One only has to look at the faces of the current members of the GOP. Or look at Limbaugh or O'Reilly if you can stand it.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Hmmmmm, where do you stand?

[-] 1 points by EngageJustice (8) 3 years ago

I stand with jesus in my heart. For jesus is our one true and only saviour. OWS could use a little Jesus in our life. You know the part in the bible when the Jews were nailing Jesus to the cross, they spent days torturing him and starving him and with his dying breath what dose he utter " FOrgive them dear lord for they know not what they do." When I think of the crooked Banking cartels on wall street and corrupt government officials I always try to remember that quote from Jesus. EEHH

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What do you think of All Jesus in our government and business. I was thinking about the concept of the Kingdom of God. Jesus did not preach the Gospel of a new church or religion but a Kingdom? The main life of a Kingdom is in business and a central part is the political system. I believe it will come. What do you think?

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

Jesus Christ wants you to get your sorry ass over here and support this poor family. They should not be alone on Christmas!

http://occupywallst.org/forum/enterprise-rent-a-car-murders-children/

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 3 years ago

"Kick out the JAMS, Muthafuckas!"

(Jaded, Anarcho-Market Sociopaths)

...Or as Jesus called them: "The Money Changers"

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What do you think about the Kingdom of God?

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 3 years ago

I think it's a pretty broad topic and as such, probably outside the scope of this forum thread.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Today I myself thought about the Kingdom of God and I tell you this is exactly what this forum needs to understand. Because it is the hope for all who want change in the society in business and politics. All are part of a Kingdom. Christianity is reduced by some to a denomination, a church at the end of the road or some personal devotion. Jesus came to set up a Kingdom which is not ruled by the spirit of WallSt and Washington and this Kingdom is already there!!!!!!! And it will come and take over these areas of government and business and then people will live in peace and love. Now when will it be? There were very learned Hostorians and theologian who said it would happen NOW in our time.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

I don't know. It would probably take Him quite a while to get around to addressing the OWS, as He would likely be kept quite busy kicking over the money changers tables and denouncing the modern day pharacies!

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The interesting thing is that eventually He will make an end to the rule of money and then we will see it first hand ( if we are alive) Who do you think are the modern day pharacies?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

It's not all religious. I believe any in power, in a position of leadership, any who the people look to for leadership and advice, Who take the truth and twist it for their own purposes to manipulate the people, these are the modern day pharacies.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

By the way are you from Coon Rapids. I am German living in Germany but I was a Foreign Exchange student living in Anoka, Mn. So I have been to Coon Rapids. The world is small. May the Lord bless you.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (32331) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Yes I am currently living in Coon Rapids in Anoka County. It is a very small world and getting smaller by the day. May the Lord bless you your family and all your works towards a healthy and moral world.

[-] 1 points by randart (498) 3 years ago

I once lived in a town called Spokane in Washington State. One of the highway signs had iodization on it to prevent oxidation from the weather to make the metal last longer. By some fluke of circumstance one of the signs had what appeared to be, if you looked hard enough, the image of Mary. People began worshipping the sign. Why? Maybe religion should be kept as a personal belief system and not a group think process.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Idoletry is bigger than true reasonable faith. No faith is unreasonable as well because it against any statistics that evolution is true. Is is denying mathematics.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 3 years ago

by what you are saying, i should have faith because others have faith. others believe socialism is the best. others believe capitalism is the best. what statistic should I be fallowing. should i not fallow my inner voice. mind you as I grow that voice grows too. randart makes a good point about group think. group think is what gave us corporatism and shoddy wall street execs. bush's cronies suffered group think.

[-] 1 points by randart (498) 3 years ago

I suppose you have THE true and reasonable faith. Have you ever noticed that the story of Jesus is nearly identical to the story of Mithras? It is a story that was a part of Egypt too.

I am skeptical about mass group think beliefs. If there were such a thing as a Moral Majority in this country then the whole problem we face would never have happened. All I see are liars and deceivers that prey on people's hope of something beyond this life.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Are you without sin? And if you are not. Do you want forgivness?

[-] 1 points by randart (498) 3 years ago

One thing I have come to realize is that I never asked to be here in the first place. I resent being subjected to "original sin" philosophy by those who claim to be Christian.

If this God thing is omniscient and all knowing then before I was even born it supposedly knew what my life would be. Even knowing my life's end before it began it still is supposedly holding me guilty for existing and yet it created me anyway. What am guilty of? Is it that I exist?

So, my answer is yes, I am without sin. I have flaws and faults but I never asked to partake in this god game so I reject that I am born in sin. That concept is no more than a control mechanism put forth by the "pious" dictators of human thought.

In all my years on this planet I can count on one hand people who I see actually living up to the basic rules of the book they say they believe in.

And what should I ask forgiveness for? Being born?

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Sin is the trangression of the law. There is no law you shall not be born. If I ask whether you are without sin I mean, have you ever trangessed the law of God after you were born. In other words: Did you ever act not with equal love for your neighbor?

[-] 1 points by randart (498) 3 years ago

Just double speak.

The only thing I feel I have a choice about is to determine what is right and what is wrong.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Look you know very well that you have chosen the wrong sometime in your life. The first step to freedom is to ackowledge it.

[-] 1 points by randart (498) 3 years ago

This conversation is going nowhere. I have studied the Bible, the history of Christianity, Gnosticism, various Buddhist philosophies and found them all lacking in the end. The closest thing I have come across is Taoism which I see as a philosophy of life and not a religion.

Give it up. You will not convert me to a belief system that has a history of crimes against humanity in the name of an unseen magical being.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I am afraid that you are right that I wont be able to see the huge difference between the Gospel and all other religions. I wish all the best.

[-] 1 points by fansmiles (24) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Actually I saw Jesus on September 17. He was wearing tight pants, long hair, dark skin and was sitting in a circle with his disciples and his girl friend Madeleine...They slept on the square and decided that being just people was better than being rich. Just go figure...

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What you have done to the least of my brothers you have done to me, Jesus says

[-] 1 points by fansmiles (24) from New York, NY 3 years ago

This is a life lesson - thank you. I am not a christian but there are very few christians who live by this golden rule and I constantly like to remind them than self righteousness / individualism has replaced this self effacing attitude.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

How about you become a Christian. Christ is waiting and would be happy if you come. He knows you.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

Jesus would say "Come to the Promiseland."

http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/

The Revolution starts here! No one can silence the Revolution!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

How should this help?

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

This company has gone out of it's way to create one disaster after another. Like Hitler, the world would be a much better place without Toshiba.

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

But don't you agree that the problem is bigger than one company?

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

Yes, it's bigger than one company. But that doesn't mean we don't have to go after Toshiba.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Our power and resources are limited as well. So isn't wise to use it in order to get most out of it?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

But is not the bad coming out of Toshiba a fruit of a root that makes many more companies bad?

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

No, Toshiba's problem is they liked to fuck over those who can't defend themselves. Just like Jesus was fucked over because he could not defend himself. I don't think I can make it any clearer. By the way, Jesus is down with the KTC.

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Please think about one thing. Jesus was murdered ALTHOUGH He could have defended himself. He said at his arrest to Peter: Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? He also said to Peter who wanted to defend Jesus with the sword: Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

No, Jesus tried to call his father, but he couldn't get any reception. As for Peter, he would have got his ass whipped because Paul and Mary weren't around. Everyone knows those three only know how to fight in a group. You have to get with it brother. Jesus is down with the KTC and so should you be!

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Have you heard about the downfall of communist East Germany. The system came down within a couple of weeks without violence and bloodshed. Do you know why?

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

Because of America and the KTC!

Even Jesus prays at the altar of the KTC! You need to get with Jesus and join the KTC!

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I think our discussion is repeating itself right now. I wish you the best and that you do not take the sword.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

You must be an Atheist. A failure to believe will only buy you a one way ticket to hell. Join the KTC before it's too late. It's no fun being a minion of Lucifer.

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

No, faith moves mountains. A couple of people prayed at a church in one of the cities called Leipzig on Mondays. After some time the center of the mass demonstrations was this church and on Mondays. They were called Monday Demos. Faith moves mountains.

[-] 1 points by stuartchase (861) 3 years ago

You are denying the will of Jesus!

The Revolution starts here!

[-] 1 points by bettydonnelly (115) 3 years ago

I think OWS should strive to be a totally Secular Non Religious Movement in everything you do.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I am sorry to disagree but I think that by leaving out God you leave out the only one good and the one who cannot be bribed and this way forget about the poor. Why do you mistrust God to handle it?

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 3 years ago

I know what the buddha would say...

"I do not believe in a fate that falls on men however they act; but I do believe in a fate that falls on them unless they act."

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

God is a moral being acting on moral grounds of Him and humans. So I don't know how this fits into what you have written. What do you think how it fits into it?

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 3 years ago

I think Jesus studied Buddhism, but I'm a free-thinker like that. Both of them would encourage us to do for ourselves, in all matters, including tending to our own souls. He would ask us not to compromise our morality in our thoughts, actions, or words. He would also tell us to stand together as one people, above partisanship, with love of our fellow beings and the Earth, and to unite ourselves in defense of the fascists who would enslave us, corrupt our minds with un-truth, and turn our noble government towards evil, self-serving ends...

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I think we have a fundamental difference in repsect to where the force of change comes from. What I understand of your position is that man have to do the right thing from their own moral strength. I believe that there is no man who can say his heart is pure or he has cleansed his heart. I think the power of moral change comes from only one who is good God. A perfect system will not change men's heart and that is the reason why God has send Jesus as a person and afterwards His Holy Spirit to man so that the Spirit works on the hearts of man to become better. Is my assessment of our difference in thinking correct?

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 3 years ago

Well, I think we're closer than you might think, it kinda depends on how much you stock you put in the New Testament, versus the Apocryphal texts, and the traditions of other religious faiths. I will go out on a limb, and say that God is a loving force that lives within all hearts of humanity, more hidden to some, though it may be. Regardless of your religious denomination, it boils down to a question of whether God will save your soul, or whether you have the power to choose to walk the enlightened path for yourself.

Thus, our souls are ours to lose to the temptations of this Earth. Extending that same metaphor to the physical world, I suggest that it would be a major personal failure to let our Government do whatever it wants, or to put our faith in the hands of any theocratic man or entity, or to rely on God above to sort it all out for us. That's a sure recipe for slavery in one of many forms. Our duty, today, is to actively protest, and then try to reform our government, so that it once more serves the people's needs, instead of rewarding fascists for their betrayal of our faith. Anything else would be an abdication that would surely threaten our very souls.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I want to introduce a new concept which we have not mentioned. Humility which comes from the fact that all people have sinned and there is no one righteous by His own works. Therefore it takes the sacrifice of Jesus who voluntarily died for us so we can live and this way

  1. New love is intruduced into the world which we desperately need
  2. Humility is induced into our world which we desperately need as well.
[-] 2 points by NLake72 (510) 3 years ago

Agreed. Seriously, I think Jesus studied a lot of Buddhism.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I don't know that much about Buddism. Was there a prophet raised from the dead?

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 3 years ago

Would Jesus still be God's son if he hadn't been raised from the dead? Would his words of wisdom, kindness, and love be any less valuable if he hadn't been swept up to heaven? Would God love him or you, would Jesus love you any more or less if he'd not been resurrected? Would you be any less inclined to be your best possible person? What's the goal of your religious studies: to keep from going to hell, or follow words of wisdom, carry love in your heart, and try your best to improve yourself and the world around you? If you're going to church out of fear, or to appease a jealous God, or because you need a miracle before you're ready to follow the teachings of Jesus? Well, then, maybe you're missing the bigger picture of why you should live a good life. Ask yourself... What am I supposed to learn on this Earth? Then, compare the words of the Sermon on the Mount to Buddhist teachings (it's the same exact stuff.) Ask yourself who the 3 wise men were, check your geography of the silk road and the spice route, and ask: how did some Jewish kid come to such radically different ideas to the culture he was born into, and surrounded with? Also, why isn't there any word given about where he was from age 12-30? And... Why are there only 4 gospels included in the New Testament? None of those questions should lead you to conclude that you shouldn't be living a good life, or that Jesus was some kind of charlatan (he wasn't)... It's more about "why am I living a good life?" If you're looking to get something out of it for yourself, if you need miracles to prove the value of your faith, then you're missing a big chunk of what Jesus was teaching, why you're trying to live a good life, and why he chose to die for our sins. Are you seeking to be saved, or are you seeking to save yourself? Living a good life is non-denominational. Love is the same throughout the world. Why live a loving life at all... What is the Earthly reward for being a good person? Food for thought.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

To me Jesus is the source of all true wisdom. I study wisdom a lot but it starts with the fear of the Lord. It is does not end there because it leads to the knowledge of the love of God. And the love of God drives out fear. But all in all it is the knowledge of God.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 3 years ago

It took you exactly 5 minutes to respond. You're not thinking hard enough, and I don't mean to offend you when I say that.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Look my heart is not right. If it were right if I would have perfect love I don't no Jesus. So of course I come to Jesus with a heart that is not right to be healed. The pure motivation for everything is love. But I don't have it. So of course my motivation for coming to Jesus is likewise. I should come to Him out of pure love. But it is not the case. So in a sense many things you said are right in pointing out a wrong motivation. Do you understand what I want to say?

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 3 years ago

I do. Very much so. My day has started, but I'll get back to you in the evening. I'm not gonna convert you to any religion, I promise.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I will answer in a parable. Let's say a book is found describing the perfect place to live called Austria. Everything is beautiful. Plenty of resources and places for recreation. Someone says that Austria is only a picture of the perfect country and we have to discover the beauty of the country where we are. But another one says I am sorry but I have been to Austria and it is a real country and I will move there. What I want to say is that I have experienced God and the Holy Spirit. They are real and not something in me, something vague.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 3 years ago

Good enough for me.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

See you later

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 3 years ago

Ok, here's a thought. If you have difficulty making "the leap of faith" it's not because you're somehow lacking character... It's because you are an adult, and a critical thinker. Deciding one day to believe in "magic/miracles" is a bit like deciding the world is flat. Tricky, but doable. Find you own way to whatever faith you pursue. You were given a brain, so look for the universal truths. Blind faith is worse than no faith, in some ways. So, ask yourself... "why do I want to walk this path..." It's a rewarding way to live, I assure you. There's no easy answers, so that's why you have to look within yourself, and trust your instincts at times. Don't take my word for anything. However, you will have to expel hate from your heart, banish your soul's sickness from your brain, and, you have to continue to be an active seeker. It won't happen overnight, any kind of healing happens a piece at a time, it's a gradual process. Don't let fear for your soul be such a motivating factor, that'll rush you into a place that feels insincere. Most religions offer a path to enlightenment and salvation, through genuine efforts to change "your evil ways." Hope, and love are two things all religions will offer you. I hope that helps.

[-] 1 points by nichole (525) 3 years ago

He'd tell us to Occupy Christmas.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Christmas has been indeed invaded by the moneychangers. It is horrible how the love money has crept into society.

[-] 1 points by nichole (525) 3 years ago

And the retail wars and what shoppers become in the process is sick and sad. Mean-spiritedness and desperation characterizes the Christmas season this year -- it's uglier from my vantage point than it ever has been before.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You sow what you reap. The country has prospered on the concept of competition - one man against another - and now you can see more and more ugly fruits coming out.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 3 years ago

That's why it's so important to plant the seeds of positive change by living with integrity at all times, no matter how difficult it can be. It's our behavior in every single moment that plants the seeds. Read Mathew...about the sower of seed. We must also realize that it is not right for us to expect to be acknowledged or receive accolades for our good deeds on this earth. We are not here to win prizes or receive tokens to heaven. We are here as role models of great goodness.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks for your good thought.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 3 years ago

Would Jesus advocate the use of force?

[-] 0 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The Bible teaches to submit to the authorities. Back then the Roman Emperors ruled. Their rule was pretty cruel to what I have heard. But Jesus encourages to ask God to bring righteousness. I live in Germany. It used to be devided. But there were a couple of Christians in East Germany who met on Mondays at a church in a big city called Leipzig for reunification. East Germany was communistic. After a couple of years mass demonstartations started to be held on Monday starting at that church. They brought the system down within a couple of weeks without blood shed. God heard their prayers. Prayer is more effective than any weapon.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 3 years ago

Yes - Excellent ! I wonder why all the communist countries need to lock the borders to keep people in?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

There are not many left. All of our neighbors like Poland, Czech Republic are not communist anymore. God has shut them down. But this unrightous system that the western part still has is still around. But I have not met many people who pray for a change. On the other hand it does not take many as we can see in East Germany. So I encourage you to pray for righteousness to come in the USA.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@ Matthias......Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

[-] 0 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I don't understand what you want to say? The law of God a set of laws very different from the ones we are used to. Are you aware that there were no prisons. The prison system was a one of servanthood. Have you heard what is going on in US prisons? I have seen SWAT teams going into prisons because it is so dangerous. I have heard of terrible situations in prisons. In Israel you went into servanthood and after 7 years you were released.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias.....God endorsed slavery.Exodus 21:20-21.....No prisons because everything was a death sentence, work on the Sabbath =death,dis your Parents=death,get raped=death,dis god=death,don't pray=death.. Is this enough for you.

[-] 0 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

It is not true that everything was a death sentence. There were death sentences. This is true. But has not the giver of life the right to take what He has created when His creation refuses to obey good and chooses to do evil?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias..So your saying God can kill for no good reason whenever it feels the need. You didn't address the God endorsed slavery.

[-] 0 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

If you think the law through. You will realize that there were no prisons. When you went into slavery than only because you did something wrong. Robbing human beings and enslaving them was also a capital crime. So as a criminal you were not put into a jail where there are many people maybe worse than you but you came to a normal family to be also reintegratged into normal life. I have heard very cruel stories about American prisons that are also run by gangs and the authorities have to come with SWAT teams to search the cells. So if I have a choice of being thrown into an American prison lets say in California or be a servant at my neigbors family I happily pick the latter. There was a release of all "slaves" every seven years. It is true that this only applies to Israelites. Heathens who have rejected God were not released. Which has a different moral justification.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias...You said......."There was a release of all "slaves" every seven years. It is true that this only applies to Israelites. Heathens who have rejected God were not released. Which has a different moral justification".

So you and God are okay with slavery.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

First of all with Jesus coming the extend of His kingdom reaches the end of the world now. Second of all you must be aware that there were no prisons. Slavery which was limited to 7 years replaced prisons. After world war II German soldiers were partly in Russian prison camps or were send to the USA to work on farms as "slaves". WHich one would you have picked having a choice. I have heard of horrible situations in prisons. The problem with the law of God is that it is only partly known and not understood oftentimes. One law by itself might look cruel but after thinking about it and taking into consideration the other laws which aplly to the same situation it is just great.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias...So you agree, you and God are okay with slavery.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I am not ok with slavery as you understand it.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias....So your not pleased with your God's endorsement of slavery, am I correct?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The people who are truely slaves are the ones who sin. They are slave of sin. The Son of God gave his life so people can get free of this ultimate slavery. God is the only one who sets the slaves free forever. It is man who choose to sin and enslave themselves. It is God who sets them free if they understand it. So if you portray God as the slave driver or endorser thereof you have not understood what sin is and what the Gospel is about.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I do believe in the Bible. Yes, I do.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias.......It is not I who portrays God as endorsing slavery. The Bible is the word of God:............................ Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Never mind. I wish you a merry Christmas. Good bye.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I do believe in the Bible. Yes, I do.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias...Good then we agree you and god support slavery....good bye.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

If someone murders and God commands to put the murderer to death who is the evil person? God or the murderer? Do you know when someone becomes a slave?

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 3 years ago

@Matthias...So your telling me you don't believe the bible.

[-] 1 points by DiMiTri (134) 3 years ago

He would say smoke more dmt

[-] 1 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 3 years ago

I think I will get to try that really soon actually. I'm excited.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What do you know about Jesus. I mean it seriously. I am interested. Maybe you have incorrect information?

[-] 1 points by DiMiTri (134) 3 years ago

Please enlighten me with the correct information you insinuate that you have

[-] 0 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Jesus Christ was born 2000 years ago. He said that He has lived before He was born and that He is the Son of God. He came to preach the Good News for the poor and to annouce the year of pardon. He called people to repent and be saved from their sin. Then He was crucified but rose from the dead. He prophecied that His message will be preached all over the world and that His Kingdom will grow to be bigger than all others. He is alive and ready to save you here and now. If you repent and believe in Him and follow Him through His word He will not only forgive all of your sins but also give you eternal life in His Kingdom where there will be no more suffering and unrighteousness.

[-] 2 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 3 years ago

I am Jesus Christ. Yep. The Bible was pretty clear on that.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Now tell me, don't you want to come to the light and confess your sins and be free?

[-] 2 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 3 years ago

I am the light.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Maybe you have a lighter but now get real? Are you happy with your life. Are you not burdened as well as we all are?

[-] 1 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 3 years ago

haha touche. Nah I get it. I just choose to interpret the gospels different than you I suppose. I could give you examples but I don't have them all memorized. But seriously, I have had my moments.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You know what facinates me. I pray to an invisible God but He answers. Don't agrre that this is something the world cannot give. You can ask people for help or advice. But you might not get an answer or a wrong one. What do you do when you are in trouble?

[-] 1 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 3 years ago

I believe that god is the unparticled matter. God is thought in motion. Basically god is manifested when one is thinking. So that is what I do. So for you, when you are praying, you are becoming god himself/herself/itself. That is why you get your answers. You should be grateful of that because most who pray likely get little or no response.

[-] 1 points by HarryCrew07 (433) 3 years ago

I agree, though I also believe that responses we receive from "ourselves as the divine" are often misinterpreted or missed altogether leaving the appearance that prayers have not been answered.

[-] 1 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 3 years ago

When I say prayer, much like when I say god, I am just trying to communicate something using somebody else's language. It is hard to talk about these things because everyone interprets the meaning of these words differently. I don't really think of them as prayers but more as just thoughts. How a thought comes about is what god is to me. That is why I believe we all have the potential to be god or divine or whatever. If somebody doesn't get an answer from themselves when they are thinking that is because that is what they are looking for. Thoughts just happen.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I come from Germany and 30 years ago a couple of people in Communist East Germany were praying for the reunification of Germany. They met on Mondays at a church in one the bigger cites calles Leipzig. About 20 years ago huge demonstration started on Mondays at that church and within of a couple of weeks the system was toppled completely peacefully. But there were many other things necessary as well like the downfall of the Soviet Union which answered with tanks when neighboring Czeck Republic tried the same. There were other parts of the puzzle coming together for this to happen. I cannot believe that their thoughts manifested so all this could happen. I believe it was a powerful God able to intervene everywhere to answer the prayers of those who have put thier trust in Him.

[-] 1 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 3 years ago

No it was the power of thought and the will of the elites that toppled those countries.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The elite was overrun by the events. It was not planned by them at all. The will cannot influence all events in life. If you want something to happen tomorrow as big as that, that let's say the income gap in the USA will be gone you will agree that this won't happen.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Well I was in Germany and watched the events unfold.

[-] 1 points by DiMiTri (134) 3 years ago

You clearly just didn't smoke enough dmt

[-] 0 points by fandango (241) 3 years ago

when praying, remember NO is an answer.

[-] 1 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 3 years ago

You are ignorant.

[-] 0 points by fandango (241) 3 years ago

please explain, understand what?

[-] 1 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 3 years ago

Because you think that prayer means asking god for favors. I was talking about something much deeper than that. Something beyond your comprehension obviously so you should probably stay out of it. Maybe you should get a life instead of pestering people on here with your stupid bullshit.

[-] 0 points by fandango (241) 3 years ago

why? praying for what you want ( whatever it is)does not guarantee an affirmative answer. No is answer too.

[-] 1 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 3 years ago

You totally missed the point and with that attitude you will never understand.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Are you from India?

[-] 1 points by 11shahid (2) 3 years ago

JESUS JUST WANT TO SAY..........(Click the Hyperlink below) http://occupywallst.org/forum/lets-solve-the-crysis-and-have-the-better-future/

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Was Nostradamus a Christian? I hardly know anything about him.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

Assuming that there actually was an historical Jesus, asking what any dead person would say about anything is a ridiculous question.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Maybe you have not heard that but there are over 500 witnesses who saw them being alive again. He was risen from the dead? Have you not heard about that?

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

There is no corroboration of the existence of an historical Jesus outside of the four gospels, as well as some other first century writing that were promulgated by heretic Christian groups such as the gnostics. Josephus discusses a Jesus (aka Joshua) but that was an extremely common first century Jewish name and could have been anybody.

There is evidence of Christian-like Jewish sects arising a full century before the supposed birth of the historical Jesus and certain aspects of the rise of Christianity only make sense if it is seen as developing considerably before the supposed birth of the historical Jesus.

It's a great myth. I'm all for the Golden Rule and I'm a practicing Quaker, but to assume that the various myths and stories surrounding a supposed historical Jesus in the New Testament have any grounding in reality is pure fantasy.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So what about all the prophecies of the books of the Jews that came to pass. The year of his birth was prophecied, the place, the process. His ministry was described and so on. I am afraid that your knowledge is not very profound.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

There is absolutely no corroborating evidence that anything about the life of Jesus is true outside of the gospel. Certainly nothing about the murder of first born, clearly ripped off from Genisis. Our course there is no rathional discourse possible with someone who insists on believing this crap and who knows nothing about what life was like in Palestine in the first century BCE.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Now if I follow your argument you say there is evidence but they all say he has lived and belive that he is the Son of God. There is no other evidence that he has not lived or that he has lived and was not the Son of God. Then you conclide that he has not lived because there is no evidence. The logic is that you do not accept the evidence there is.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

Any serious scientific historian would not accept the evidence from a single source, especially a source that elsewhere tries to convince us that the universe, life on earth and humanity came about in a mere six days along with many, many other scientific inanities.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Since when are many authors a single source. Only because they all agree that Jesus is the Son of God you consider it a single source. That is untrue. When 10 people saw a person commiting a murder and because they all agree the judge says that there is only one single source and no scientist there is no evidence. There were over 500 people seeing Jesus being resurected. They is no logical and truthful merit in your arguements.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

It really is hard to have a serious conversation with anybody who finds the Bible to be anything more than an important work of literature and an important source for more systematic scientific research. What 500 people saw Joshua Ben Joseph being crucified? Where is the corroboration. Matthew corroborates Mark, which corroborates Luke, which corroborates John? Get serious. No serious scientific investigation would credit these as actual separate sources and there is absolutely no corroboration of these events outside of the gospels themselves. But there is just no point in trying to have a serious discussion with the superstitious. You know what superstition is, right: The other guy's religion. You clearly are religious whereas anybody who has religious views contrary to your own must be superstitious. Truly this is such a load of crap I do not know why I bother.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I know what bothers you. Logic and your consience.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

Anybody who looks at the Bible as the word of God isn't exactly being logical in the commonly understood meaning of that word. As far as my conscience goes, I personally believe that the Golden Rule is a revolutionary doctrine, but one doesn't have to believe in a supreme being or the efficacy and veracity of the Bible to follow it.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Do you know what I think? You were educated in the doctrines of the Bible? Is that true. Your parents did that or you went to Sunday school? Am I right?

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

Yes, I had a religious upbringing. The church was really the center of our social life. I have nothing (or more accurately little) against it really. I went to church three times on Sunday, plus Sunday school and the church youth group and also on Wednesay. I believe in the Golden Rule. The biggest gripe I had with the Church as a teenager was their incredibly square attitudes toward sex. Other than that I also had a very scientific secular education, so very early on of course I took issue with all the crap about a supreme being, life after death and all that nonsense, but again I think the Golden Rule is a revolutionary doctrine and we don't need God for that, but if only 10% of the population really practiced it I think we could overthrow all the existing governments in the world.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So I guess you sinned against one these laws regulating sex and then you lost your faith in order to get rid of the guilty conscience. You should repent and come back to God. Now is the time of grace. Don't igone it because when it is too late you will figure out that it is all true but it would be too late for you.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Ok last response since you asked me: And just why is the other guy's religion superstitious nonsense and the crap you believe true? Because scientifically we have to obeservations. Over 500 reasonable human beings have seen Jesus being alive after he was killed. Scientifically there is no natural cause for explaining that. Therefore it must be an act of God. No other religion has that. This is why I think the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true and all other views inculding yours is false.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

Unless I adopt Jimmy Carter's perspective (which I don't) that thinking lustful thoughts is sinful, I most certainly did not commit sexual "sins" (whatever that means). I lied a lot, but what teenager doesn't and I certainly didn't feel especially guilty about it. Probably the thing I feel most guilty about is being lazy, but I didn't really develop any strong guilt feelings about that until my late middle age, long after I had become an atheist. I certainly never felt especially guilty about being lazy in my youth. If anything, I was in fact rather proud of being lazy and thought there was virtue in it as most creativity comes out of leisure. It sort of hard to "come back to God" when you have a scientific perspective and think the whole concept is superstitious nonsense. And I don't feel especially guilty about that either. If religion ruled the world we'd still be burning people at the stake. And just why is the other guy's religion superstitious nonsense and the crap you believe true? Answer me that. After all, they also believe that their religion is true and yours is superstitious nonsense. I simply say that in the scientific era, since there is no proof of any of this crap it's all superstitious nonsense. Now, I've really spent way too much time talking to someone who clearly doesn't understand the most rudimentary notions of reason.

[-] 1 points by mrburger (26) 3 years ago

wow iteresting

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

How about you start reading the Bible. There are tons of interesting things.

[-] 1 points by mrburger (26) 3 years ago

sher i do already

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So what do you say about no interest on debt as a law.

[-] 1 points by mrburger (26) 3 years ago

lol lol

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What? Lol?

[-] 1 points by mrburger (26) 3 years ago

i already do man

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So what do you think of the Kingdom of God. Will it rule on earth politically as well?

[-] 1 points by kingscrosssection (314) 3 years ago

Well now I know why the Jews killed him. He was a moron.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What is bad about that in particular?

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 3 years ago

This concept will divide the people and isn't that what you are trying to avoid.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I agree, it unfortunately is deviding people. But it is prophecied that there will be a time when masses will come to Jesus. Some wise men think it will happen in our time.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 3 years ago

Christian Harold Camping of Family Radio predicted the end of the world on May 21, 2011. Which just so happened to be my birthday. He is so going to hell for that.

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Why does that make you so angry. Jesus predicted that there will be many false prophets. Stick to the true ones.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 3 years ago

I'm not angry. It was a sarcastic joke.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Sorry for misinterpreting your response. Do you believe in prophecy by and large?

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 3 years ago

Not in the sense that you mean. I believe in forecasts. But to believe in religious prophecy would require a belief in God, which doesn't float with my general understanding of human psychology and behavior.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Ok, but what do you say to the fact that many statements about the future of the Jewish books like Isaih came to pass exactly as it was written. The place, time and cirumstances of the brith of Jesus were foretold. How do you integrate that into your understanding?

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 3 years ago

one person's facts are another person's falsities. If you 'put faith' in afore-mentioned facts, then it would explain how your understanding came to pass. Just as Harold Camping stated a fact, from his vigorous study of the Bible, that the world would end on my birthday.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Take the prohpecy of the coming world empires at the time of Daniel. Everrybody knows that there was The Medo Persian empire followed by Alexandre the Great and then the Roman Empire which was split up also according to the prophecy

[-] 1 points by Crossroads (19) 3 years ago

Separation of Church and State was put in place for good reason.....

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Yes. This way slave owners had a quite life because the law of God forbids robbing humans from other countries and enslaving them. The same with WallSt nowadays. As I quoted the law of God above. If the banks cannot charge interst and debts are forgiven they would look a lot different

[-] 1 points by Korsen (53) from Fairfield, CT 3 years ago

jesus would preach up on a soapbox and get shot immediately for being a cult icon that far too many people are allowed to follow at once. the prez would be jelly and kill the bastard.

Secondly: To each his own. FuManchu: Keep your mouth shut, there aren't a million people on here telling you that your beliefs are garbage. The same way we don't punch people on the street in order not to be punched, stop spreading that shit around you scumbag. Maybe we could focus on the real issues if you weren't busy fanning the flames of antagonistic bullshit we don't need to be discussing.

EDIT: Matthias - religion shouldn't be taken much further than inside the home. Bring it up in the world only serves to divide us further as we talk about ideologies like we talk about skin color and race. We have enough divisive issues, we don't need religion (which people are willing to die for, as opposed to skin color or race) sticking its fat nose into the dilemma.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I understand your frustration that people are so diverse. But isn't it reasonable to gather around someone who is purely good and selfless instead follwing people with selfish agendas. Tell me one thing you don't like about Jesus where was acting selfish?

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

Jesus would tell you not to covet the money, nor put it ahead of your worship of him, but to use it for the poor, follow in His footsteps, and be saved. Jesus did not want you to be poor, but have no other God's before Him.. and that includes those that worship money.

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

Money is an issue that needs clarification. The viewpoint of most people with respect to money is not correct—including the viewpoint of many Christians who think they are following the Bible’s teachings. In fact, although slavery is not a term we think about much today, there are probably more people in financial slavery today than our Earth has ever seen before. Still, although money is involved, this financial slavery is not connected to the amount of money people have. The relationship we have with our money (compared to our relationship with God) is what is important. You see, God wants to remove anything that gets in the way of a personal relationship with Him. What do you think? Does it look like Jesus is implying that everyone should give away all of their money and live like a homeless person? Many do, but they should not. Let’s look at the following points: The disciples were surprised to hear that rich people would have trouble getting into heaven. The reason is that in their culture, people believed that the rich were being blessed by God, and therefore the most likely to go to heaven. The following verse is one of many that shows us why.

Deuteronomy 8 18 “And you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day.”

Many of the people obviously approved by God in the Old Testament were wealthy. Job, Abraham, Jacob (Israel), and Solomon are good examples.

1 Kings 3 5 At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night; and God said, “Ask! What shall I give you?” 6 And Solomon said: “You have shown great mercy to Your servant* David my father, because he walked before You in truth, in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with You; You have continued this great kindness for him, and You have given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day. 7 Now, O LORD my God, You have made Your servant king instead of my father David, but I am a little child; I do not know how to go out or come in. 8 And Your servant is in the midst of Your people whom You have chosen, a great people, too numerous to be numbered or counted. 9 Therefore give to Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people, that I may discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?” 10 The speech pleased the LORD, that Solomon had asked this thing. 11 Then God said to him: “Because you have asked this thing, and have not asked long life for yourself, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have asked the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to discern justice, 12 behold, I have done according to your words; see, I have given you a wise and understanding heart, so that there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall any like you arise after you. 13 And I have also given you what you have not asked: both riches and honor, so that there shall not be anyone like you among the kings all your days. 14 So if you walk in My ways, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as your father David walked, then I will lengthen your days.”

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

Mark 10 : 17-25

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

[-] 1 points by phantom3 (110) 3 years ago

You reap what you sow

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

AMEN.

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

The Experience of the Preacher

12

¶ I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.

13

And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

14

I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

15

That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

16

¶ I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. 1 Kgs. 4.29-31

17

And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.

18

For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

True saying. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

Proverbs 20:13 Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, and thou shalt be satisfied with bread. Proverbs 21:25 The desire of the slothful killeth him; for his hands refuse to labour. Proverbs 22:13 The slothful man saith, There is a lion without, I shall be slain in the streets. Proverbs 22:29 Seest thou a man diligent in his business? he shall stand before kings; he shall not stand before mean men. Proverbs 23:4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom. 5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

All Is Vanity

1

The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

2

Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

3

What profit hath a man of all his labor which he taketh under the sun?

4

One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

5

The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

6

The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

7

All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full: unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

8

All things are full of labor; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

9

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10

Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

11

There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I don't see what you want to say in respect to my post. Please tell me.

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

Jesus tells us not to rely on riches, as they will not get us into heaven. We cannot buy our way in, but wealth is granted to those who work and follow in the path of God. We tend to think that Jesus commands us to do away with our riches, no... He commands us to follow him, and to do away with ANYTHING that would seperate us from him. Work is all we have thatis not vanity.And if you are too lazy to work, then you shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You wrote We tend to think that Jesus commands us to do away with our riches, no Jesus says to his DICIPLES: Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Furthermore He said: Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.

So I cannot agree with your statement.

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

With those two points in mind, it should be clear that the rich man’s problem was not that he was a bad person, nor that he was rich. His problem was that he loved his money above everything else—and even thought it proved he had a “ticket to heaven.” His question to Jesus may have been to confirm to himself what a great guy he was . . . and he was badly disappointed.

The reason it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God is because most rich people are too much in love with their money to enter the kingdom of God. They are not being kept out, they are keeping themselves out. The point of the story therefore is not that money is bad, but that the rich man’s focus was wrong. To prove that, notice how differently God treated Solomon. God was pleased not only because Solomon did not ask for money, but also because he did not ask for other self-centered things, either. Then God turned around and rewarded Solomon greatly. Solomon’s focus was clearly on what God would want (for all of His people).

Notice that Jesus confirmed that people would be rewarded richly for anything they give up for Him and the gospel—now and in heaven (Mark 10:29,30). God doesn’t want you wealthy or poor, he wants you to follow Him. He will then reward you appropriately. If you have money problems, your relationship with God may not be as perfect as you think it is.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

One condition of having riches is that you cannot give them away. Now if you let's say build orphanages you are on paper rich but you work with it. So I agree it depends on what are your riches made of. But Jesus did not only say this to the rich man coming to Him but also to His followers. There was a German Christian who was in big business but he was an outspoken Christian, participated in Chrisitan evangalism and could be seen a role model of a rich Christian who was still serving Christ. Then when there was the financial meltdown and the stock market plumented he commited suicide. It is a very dangerous slope to keep riches and be a Christian.

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

Again, back to Solomon.. all is Vanity.. It is apparent, that though to the unsuspecting eye, the man Worshiped God first, and followed Jesus, he really put Money before God. This was his downfall. To be trully rich, one must have God before everything else. A simple thing to think about.. told to me years ago by an elderly couple when I asked them how they had stayed married for 50 years.. They told me this and I follow this still today.... 1. Put God first. 2. Spouse next 3. Children comes in third. 4th is your home.. and lastly, is your job. In that order. In a list of priorities, this should be yours. God, Spouse,children,home,job.. When you put anything on the list ahead of anything else there, you will lose it all.

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

There is going to be a war.. unlike anything we have ever seen. Already, we are taking God out of everything.. school, government, even the churches. It is better to show nudity and gay sex on TV than talk about God, and this is the norm all over the p[lanet.. Many many of the 99%ers are blaming Jews for their own problems, instead of facing what Solomon said. Lazy men die,the hard workers dine with kings.. Take the tale of the ant and the grasshopper.. too many grasshoppers not preparing for the war here. Demanding that government and businesses take care of them. None preparing like the ants for the winter.. what happens when the plagues begin, and all food is lost? The war will happen, and it will be the rich vs. the poor, the athiests against the devout. It is almost a crime in America to be a Christian.. and most anymore would want to see Jews and Christians murdered and the Bibles burned just to be rid of us once and for all.The end times are very very close at hand.. There is almost nothing left but Matthew 24:14 " And this Gospel of the Kingdom, shall be preached unto all the world, as a witness to this testimony, and then the END shall come." Everything else has already come to pass.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks for your insight. What do you think God will do with the situation? What will happen in the future?

[-] 1 points by Kman (171) 3 years ago

Use your faith to support your decisions, not to try to sell us on your point of view. Religion should be peripheral to this discussion.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You say that. God says the opposite. He has created the world. Doesn't has a right to have a say in here?

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

Proverbs 12:11 He that tilleth his land shall be satisfied with bread: but he that followeth vain persons is void of understanding. Proverbs 12:24 The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute. Proverbs 13:4 The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat. Proverbs 14:23 In all labour there is profit: but the talk of the lips tendeth only to penury. Proverbs 19:15 Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger. Proverbs 16:26 He that laboureth laboureth for himself; for his mouth craveth it of him.

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

Proverbs 10:4 He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich. 5 He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame.

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

Proverbs 6:6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: 7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, 8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. 9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? 10 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: 11 So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The unemployment rate of black Amercians is 16.1%. Now please explain how can they all find a job?

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

Sometimes, you have to work for yourself to survive. Many of the unemployment figures you see, include self employed people as well. The best philosophy is: Why rely on someone else to give it to you, when you can earn it for yourself? If you continue to work for others, and never try for yourself, or are stuck thinking that you have to rely on others, than you condemn yourself to poverty. A rich man, is not always one with a lot of money, but one that is rich in Spirit and with God. When you devote your life to God, He shall Provide. Put away things others tell you, and do something for yourself.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Look I am blessed with a job. But due to the rule of money huge companies have destroyed the mom and pap stores and now it is almost impossible to let's say open a small grocery store. If giants eat up the small then there is hardly no room to start a small business. Do you agree?

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

YOu compare the 3% of business out there, with the majority of small businesses. Should I close down my computer repair business, because Microsoft can fix it instead, or should I stop building small airplanes because Boeing moved in at the local airport? Big businesses like Walmart found a way to make a lot of money selling everything cheaper than the local competitors, because a. people saw the value in saving money, the local competitors did not find a way to reduce costs, and pass that on to thier customers. If you could buy directly from the manufacturer, and not need to deal with the middle men, than you too could then resale that product for above cost, and make a profit, many many small mom and pop places were buying from distributors instead of manufacturers, and they got defeated because they did not look for better prices. Whether or not a business succeeds or fails, does not mean that it was defeated by a larger entity like Walmart.. IT means, the owners of that business, did not.. Diversify thier product. Offer competitive prices, offer resonable discounts. LAcked a good business model... lacked good ownership/managment. You rationalize that all small businesses are in jeapordy because of of hte big ones.. I disagree.. all businesses are in jeapordy if they do not foolow trends, and do everything they can to generate revenue.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

When you go to Walmart then a lot of the stuff is from China. There are some items I could not find anything made but China. So first of all how come the capitalistic Walmart is best partner with communists. Then of course we know that in China labor is cheap. So is it right to exploit labor?

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

Are we talking about exploiting labor in the US or in China? Yes labor is cheap in China.. you know why? Because the Socialist government provides everything to them. The money you spend on items from China, does not go to it's people, but to its government. The government then redistributes the money equally to its citizens, regarless if they worked. The issues in China is, everyone must work or be killed. It is not Americans who exploit the labor, but the Government of Socialist China. Yes there are products on the shelves of Walmart that are made only in China. So as a consumer, you have the choice on who to buy from. You can choose to buy an item made in China, or you can buy American made. What is sad, is that American workers demand so much, that many items are priced too high to be competitive on the market, simply because of the overhead cost the businesses need to charge to maintain the workers. This is how China oout Let me give you a simple example.. a chair.. made in China.. practically slave labor for the goverment, overhead cost/.. 10 dollars.. shipping cost along with 10,000 other chairs.. 500.. total cost for the chair with a store mark up for profit.. $80 Same chair, made in the US.. Designer wants 25 bucks an hour, wood worker wants 15 an hour, shipping company wants 500 per every 1000 pounds, advertising wants 2000 per month to run ads, government wants 30% tax and the manufacturer, and retailer want to make a profit, so.. 400 per chair sound about right? This is not exploiting, it is about how to produce a product that is affordable and eay to make a profit on. I guarantee, if you build a business that is 100 % American made, you will be out of business in a year or less, because who would want to pay 100% - %500 more for an item, they could buy elsewhere?

[-] 2 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Ok, lets go back to the biblical economy of Israel. With laws I mentioned above and the fact that God started out the state with equal opportunities for everybody (lets exclude the tribe of Levi whoes job was serving God). So everybody had land and the land could not be taken away from the family for more than 50 years. Then you could not charge interest. Isn't this the perfect economy. Every family is self employed and cannot be oppressed.

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 3 years ago

I dont know why its not letting me reply under your post there..

The perfect economy, one in which everyone, regardless of status is equal, cannot happen on this planet without Godly intervention. Mankind is to self centered and evil. No government, or economic system out there, will ever succeed without God's help and interference. What God set up for the Israelis, does not last, when corruption taints every deed mankind endeavors to do. No.. there will be a Millennial Kingdom, under Jesus as ultimate King, and then we shall see what true economics are like.

[-] 1 points by debdaveandpets (34) from Ironwood, MI 3 years ago

Need knowledge, self-control, and RESOURCES to have freedom and if 1% owns all the resources the rest can not be vary free. Life is all about relationships and getting them right. Put your faith in truth which is about knowing relationships in your life. Put your hope in freedom which is about choosing relationships in your life. Put your trust in love which is about caring relationships in your life. Truth, freedom, love are good. Deceit, slavery, hate are bad. Choosing good is moral. Choosing bad is evil. Of these values freedom is the easiest to loose because you need resources to have it, but if you have to many resources they end up owning you and when resources are wasted it means less freedom for someone somewhere.

If you share these values spread the WORD, I took years getting this right and you may say that it should have been easy but like the knowledge that the earth goes around the sun if you did not know it that knowledge would be hard to get, we have to teach knowledge or the knowledge dies with us. Have faith, hope, trust in truth, freedom, love David McDonell of Ironwood MI debdaveandpets@gmail.com

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. What human can say that he has cleansed his heart and he is free from sin. Therefore we need outside help from an eternally good source which God who send Jesus Christ to fix it.

[-] 1 points by debdaveandpets (34) from Ironwood, MI 3 years ago

I am with you, to me God is truth, freedom, love

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks a lot. It is great to meet Christians who are standing up for the name of God.

[-] 1 points by debdaveandpets (34) from Ironwood, MI 3 years ago

The laws of the universe allow for love it did not have to be that way, love proves God. He may the laws that way.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What do you mean with the law of universe allow for love it did not have to be that way?

[-] 1 points by debdaveandpets (34) from Ironwood, MI 3 years ago

the laws could have not allow freedom or love made the universe like one big movie and we are just filling the parts in it, but instead God gave us freedom to love or hate, but turning against God they choose hate, letting God in your life you choose truth, freedom, love which God is.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks. What do you think God will do with the system we have where the rule over the rich and the cause of the poor is neglected

[-] 1 points by Thoreaux42 (16) from Ithaca, NY 3 years ago

My church is raising money for the movement

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

That is interesting. What church is it?

[-] 1 points by stonemadeflesh (29) 3 years ago

http://youtu.be/JTNvKSrdm_s

This short video answers the question.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I replied that question before so I copied and paste it now: I watched the video and I must say that it redefines socialism, because according to wikipedia it is: Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are either state owned or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively; According to this common definition Joseph, the son of Judah, was the first one recorded in the Bible to set up a pure form of socialism because in the end the means of production was controlled by the state. The law of Moses on the contrary was the opposite: All property was in the hands of private people. BUT much more evenly distributed than it is now. The laws I have cited protect the people from the situation we have now

[-] 1 points by Rob (881) 3 years ago

Matthew 25:14-30 this will tell you EXACTLY what he thought.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I do not understand what you mean. Is it, that the rich will be rewarded?

[-] 1 points by Rob (881) 3 years ago

It is not what "I" mean. Read into it what you want, but this si what Jesus said. If you work for someone do what is best for your employer.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

He used this parable for the work in the Kingdom.

[-] 1 points by solraiser (26) 3 years ago

separation of church and state

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

This is the base for abuse because God is the only that cannot be bought with money that is not a respector of persons. The true God is good and righteous and has a King for us Jesus Christ. As long as He is rejected the abuse of power WILL NOT END:

[-] 1 points by solraiser (26) 3 years ago

i dont follow jesus but i still want good, i think people just need to start caring more about this world and the people in it.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

But they don't that's why we need Jesus.

[-] 1 points by solraiser (26) 3 years ago

no they just need to quit being selfish greedy bastards, but we are all entitled to our own opinion on it, i dont care what religion one believes, i care only for the action one takes.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

The actions are a result of their heart and providence.

[-] 1 points by LastWaltz (115) from Medford, NY 3 years ago

I respect your right to look to spiritual texts for guidance. You're right, Jesus did follow a simple and ultimately giving life according to the bible and other religious texts. I myself am agnostic- but I tend to appreciate Buddhist ideals for many different occasions in my life. Maybe you should show your dedication to Christianity by trying to encourage the love and respect that is often negated by power, money and greed today.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What do think of the witnesses that testified that Jesus has resurrected. This makes completely different from all other religions.

[-] 1 points by LastWaltz (115) from Medford, NY 3 years ago

No, not really. Ancient Egyptians had a similar Resurrection story. Often the human 'spirit' is thought of as enduring even after death- whether you believe that literally or figuratively.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Please tell me where I can read that and who were the witnesses and what happend to them. Are they relyable. Have they proven with giving their life for it that they truely have seen that. Anything else is hearsaying.

[-] 1 points by LastWaltz (115) from Medford, NY 3 years ago

No one we know was alive during the times of Jesus or ancient Egypt. It's not a fault that resurrection is a common belief for different religions and cultures- it's interesting and usually can be traced to thousands of years ago. Hearsay is when you say something you heard some one else say without a signed statement or their presence in a court of law.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

There a witness acounts of the resurrection. There is a consistent history of the development of the Kingdom of God. It has come to pass exactly as it was prophecied. There a hundreds of prophecies that came true. And in the end all will have been fullfilled. I was convinced of the truth of the Bible when I have read it from beginning to end. Have you and have you read these other things you talk about.

[-] 1 points by LastWaltz (115) from Medford, NY 3 years ago

Right, just because you read something doesn't make it true. That, again, my opinion and my observation of history.

[-] 1 points by LastWaltz (115) from Medford, NY 3 years ago

I was raised Roman Catholic, I've read the bible a while ago. I'm saying it goes against logic to say that if something is true some of the time, it must be true ALL of the time.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

It is overwhelming sonsistency of the writings and the relevance for world affairs and individual affairs. Just take the book of wisdom. It is simply true when you think about it. As I said hundreds of prophecies had been fullfilled as we can verify in now. Have you read the whole Bible and checked it out according to history?

[-] 1 points by Atoll (185) 3 years ago

I agree somewhat. But allowing religion to be so pervasive in politics is what the founders were hoping to avoid.
I've said for some time that God does not WANT to be in Washington, DC. And I don't think He does. There's way too much power given to politicians because they "believe". You won't stop corruption by injecting religion.
If there is to be a true God-driven government, it will probably be a communist anarchy, which is to say, no government at all really. Simple truth. Not advocating either ideologies, just saying. Humanity is not ready for either. Until our species moves beyond a need for power, it will always pervade our society.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Please read Psalm 2 and you will clealy see that it is God's will to be obeyed in Washington.

[-] 1 points by Atoll (185) 3 years ago

Psalm 2 speaks of kings. There are very few kings today. We live in a nation where (in theory) we are responsible for what we do. It is God's will that man obey His laws. Government is not necessary for that. Here is another verse for you. Hebrews 13:17 The goal isn't to change the government in any way other than the means allowed by that same government to change it.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Your statement is not true. Next to Kings the rulers are mentioned as well. The Hebrew word for rulers is: ) (Qal) to be weighty, be judicious, be commanding And judges are also mentioned. So it is not true. As of Herbews 13 I have to say that it is completly within the constitution of the USA to elect whom you choose and to change the constitution by the assigned procedure.

[-] 1 points by Atoll (185) 3 years ago

So turn America into a Theocracy and it will be incorruptible? Is that what you're suggesting?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Yes if it is through the Gospel, because it will change the heart as well. We do not need a stimulus of money. We need a stimulus of love. A change of hearts and minds which can God provide and does when the Gospel is accepted. If you are able to change some of the rules you have not made one heart more loving and the abuse will start all over again.

[-] 1 points by Atoll (185) 3 years ago

sigh A Christian idealist. I'll pray for you. God cannot change the hearts and minds of man. He can only inspire man. Man should be governed by God. SHOULD. But He, in His infinite wisdom has left it to us to govern ourselves. That's why I day it's up the the individual.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Do you know about the prophecies in Isaiah and John where God will set up righteous rulers who will rule in righteousness with Christ's spirit. I am an idealist but I am inspired by the Word of God.

[-] 1 points by mrburger (26) 3 years ago

wow 1000 great job :]

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Let's hope people will see that Jesus is alive, ready to rule, and the one that cannot be bought with money. He will bring justice to the poor.

[-] 1 points by mrburger (26) 3 years ago

emm?? uuhh jaa

[-] 1 points by exrepublican (1) 3 years ago

If we could see with His Eyes then we would understand the way God understands, for his eyes see through the darkness right down to our needs, if we could only see through His eyes. That is such a powerful song. Thank you for reminding us about his view and Shouting it from the housetop!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You are welcome. May the Lord bless you and make you see through His eyes.

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

well it so happens to be that we can't just speculate.

[-] 1 points by mrburger (26) 3 years ago

i think it is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks for the support.

[-] 1 points by mrburger (26) 3 years ago

youre wellcome

[-] 1 points by mrburger (26) 3 years ago

do you think of ows

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Well it is for real. The misdeeds of WallSt are for real. It is happening and so plays a part in God's providence. What do think it is.

[-] 1 points by mrburger (26) 3 years ago

imm sick about those rich bankers how are gettin g pummt with money

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

God will make an end to all injustice.

[-] 1 points by mrburger (26) 3 years ago

cool

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

What are you looking for the most what God wants to do?

[-] 1 points by stevilism (130) 3 years ago

This is the modern day version of Jesus' rampage i.e. flipping the tables of the "money changers".

Matthew 21:12-13

12 And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

But the reason for my posting here is that you look at the reason why He did it. He said that the tempel is supposed to be a house of prayer for all nations. It is God who brings justice. We need to seek Him and pray to Him to help us

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

youre reply link isn't working.you obviously can't think logicly.if you let 'god' rule you have to have somebody representing him or talking to him or whatever so this person or group would obviously use this and it could easily become Diktatorship which probably also happened in Isreal since they have a president now

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You are right that it can be abused and it is abused and it was abused. So we do not new hypocricy. Therefore the Gospel comes with help. We need a stimulus of love as well. So the cold hearted people will gain love and love obeys God.

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

so you admit it won't work

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

If it is up to men it will not work. That is why I said we must make Jesus King. Jesus is the missing link in the puzzle. He provides for our lack.

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

so what are supposed to do with jesus

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Come to Him, learn from Him, believe in Him, be transformed by Him, get eternal life from Him. God has made Him King of Kings. Supreme ruler of the world. Therefore we should also acknowledge as King over all governments including ours. David was annoited King over Israel long before they acknoledged Him.

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

well david made bad choices

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Right. It is Jesus who is ruling forever. This is just great. The perfect man, full of wisdom, grace and love.

[-] 1 points by Tujay (20) 3 years ago

I strongly believe in keeping religion separate from government, but people should be free to point out religious teachings here. This movement should include all of the 99% and whatever motivates us to be here on behalf of our future economic security. That said - in fairness to all religions, if we studied them I'm certain we'd find very similar teachings about debt and interest. For example, there are Muslims in my state who will not take out any interest bearing loans due to their faith.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

If God is the only one good. Then He is the only one able to come up with a just system. He is also the only one who then cannot be rigged. History of men have done exactly that. Keep God out and favor the rich. And it does not matter whether they officially were serving God. The fact that they did not keep God's law proofs they have left Him out. Is there any man who can say: I have cleanded my heart I am free of sin. Let him rule if it is true, but if not let God rule.

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

your reply button doesn't exist.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

SOmeone else wrote the same thing. I hope it won't happen again. Ok, you can rely now, hopefully.

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

i don't agree.The people should be able to rule

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

So you are so annoyed. The people rule but you don't see the correlation.

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

what do you mean?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You say that the people should rule. Then the people have created systems the people are fed up with because it only works well for some. This has gone on for thousands of years. Now your name is soannoyed. So assume that you are also annoyed by the status quo that only a few benefit and the cause of the poor is forgotten. So you are annoyed by the system (which man have made) then I say let God rule and then you reply. No the people should rule.

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

So whysn't isreal letting god rule .Let me guess it didn't work

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

In Israel God's law did work but only for a while. The laws were written in stone.And actually there was also an opposite effect. Although the law is good it entice you to break it. Have you ever experienced that?

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

so how are we supposed to let god rule the country ? seriously

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Obey Him. He has the wisdom and the laws layed down and it is up to us to put them into practise.

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

and whats ur interpretation of 'obey him'?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

If it is written forgive their debt you forgive. The same way you obey the laws of modern society. There is one difference. Moden societies have over 100.000 rules and laws and make lawers rich because partly they are difficult to understand. The law of God does not have lawers language but it is easy to read.

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

so no democracy?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

If you look into the system of Israel that lived by the law of God there was no legislative body, no government just judges who decided quarrels. Inst't that great?

[-] 1 points by soannoyed (16) 3 years ago

take away our rights, no way .we broke away from england to be free.Our country is based on freedom.Occupy Wall street is about us getting our rights back not finding ways to get less.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

You certainly agree that there can only be a legitimate right if it is not hurting others? So God has a perfect system that keeps people from harm from others. So the rights of the USA are valid in a perfect system only if they are fit into this perfect system of justice.

[-] 1 points by Thetruth (17) 3 years ago

I've been staying at the occupy wall street movement. Seeing it spread globally in this way has worried me. I've put all the pieces together. This movement will grow till it's so big and the message of solidarity and we being the 99% will grow so big the powers that be will have to answer the people. The answer will be one world government. It is inevitable. Please people understand this was all started for that purpose. Everything that is happening now was predicted in the book of revelations. Not even being a Jesus freak. Just read it and you will know. Everything happening was fore told. Please people know that there is nothing we can do to stop it. I just hope we the people dont suffer. But that is also inevitable.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I can your point. But how about the teaching of Jonath Edwards that does not necesarily contridct you view but He thought that the millenium will start at our time. Preceding the millenium will be downfall of the Harlot Babylon. The World Trade Center fell and maybe it was the start of this downfall. After that their will be a fight against Jesus and His army BUT Jesus (Now Incontinue the thought) will overcome them by the sword coming out of His mouth, which is the Word of God and then all the world will turn to Christ through faith and the Kingdom of God will be the biggest brush (parable of the mustard seed) for a thousand years.

[-] 1 points by MechanicalMoney (208) 3 years ago

He says nothing because he cannot speak at this time...

But YOU are a lot of things to say...

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

It admit that it can seem strange that God uses everyday little people who are for sure not perfect like me to preach. But this is what the Bible says-

[-] 1 points by MechanicalMoney (208) 3 years ago

I just want to say "Speakin in the name of... is lying"

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Well then you must proof it. If I lie you can prove it, right? I am not perfect at all and I can image myself that there might be something that I wrote which is wrong. So please prove it and I will apologize.

[-] 1 points by MechanicalMoney (208) 3 years ago

It's because you speaking instead of someone, you are not this people.

How many people die "in the name of God", but were killed only by humans?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Is the US President lying when He signs a treaty in the name of the US?

[-] 1 points by justwantanaccount (68) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

It would be nice if we could trade fast without money or debt. In fact someone needs to come up with a system that could do that.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

But what do you think of the system I described above: No interest. RElease of debt every 7 years and redistribution of basic weallth every 50 years. Please think it through I think it is best possible.

[-] 1 points by justwantanaccount (68) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

I like the part about having no interest, but I'm not sure about how the redistribution thing will go. It's human nature to hold on to their social status. We need a system that takes advantage of human nature, not something that goes despite it.

I noticed that people usually value social approval above all - in tribal societies, the rulers are usually very giving and sends gifts like crazy, since they will be seen as generous if they do so. Their currency is social approval. In fact, a few recent studies show that social approval is the core of human society:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110812213032.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Latest+Science+News%29

For proof that rejection, exclusion, and acceptance are central to our lives, look no farther than the living room, says Nathan Dewall, a psychologist at the University of Kentucky. "If you turn on the television set, and watch any reality TV program, most of them are about rejection and acceptance," he says. The reason, DeWall says, is that acceptance -- in romantic relationships, from friends, even from strangers -- is absolutely fundamental to humans.

I think that we should be able to take advantage of this. For example, I noticed on reddit that people will do anything for upvotes (it's a point system indicating popularity, more or less), even though the upvotes won't do anything in real life. Maybe build a website like reddit, but for entrepreneurs/businesses, and get the upvote system as currency? Oh! If the community is of consumers and businessmen/industries, then maybe the businessmen/industries will simply supply each other goods based on networking or something? And on a large scale, people seem to want good things (see: few spams on Wikipedia), so maybe it'll work?

. . . I just pulled that idea out of my ass, but . . . somehow I've convinced myself, hmm.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I think that for a society to work you need love, equal love. Love your neighbot as yourself. How to create love. One import way is to forgive, to overlook transgressions. Jesus started to forgive. This I believe is the stimulus we need. We need the Gospel. I know I ask for much. But I do not see another solution.I must tell I do not see success in your solution.

[-] 1 points by justwantanaccount (68) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Can you be more specific about why you think my solution is faulty? We can work on a solution together. :)

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Let me start out to describe the perfect system and by doing so I will show the difference to you suggestion. The perfect system of community is that every action is motivated by love, at least equal love. I work and use my resources as much for my benefit as for the others. If it gives me an advantage I would not want to do it. Approval I think can be split in two parts. 1.) I want to be loved, which is good. 2.) I want to be better than others. I envy their supiriior status. Salomo puts it this way: Then I saw that all toil and all skill in work come from a man’s envy of his neighbor. This also is vanity and a striving after wind What do you think about this argument?

[-] 1 points by justwantanaccount (68) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 3 years ago

Well, I think that envy could be used to society's advantage - I remember my professor talking about a case study where a bunch of Native American tribes competed with each other to give each other the most food, since the leaders were close to the people they were ruling so they needed their follower's approval of their rule, and being more generous meant having more followers. I'm trying to dig that up from my Anthropology textbook, but no luck so far . . .

Aside from that example, I have noticed that people do all sorts of things online for free - when I was younger, I used to be crazy about Harry Potter, and the community would organize a bunch of things with little to no money. You see fanfiction and fanart that took a lot of effort to draw/write, that the authors/artists offered on the Internet for free. You also see people editing Wikipedia for free, and on most pages you don't see spam or anything of the sort - in fact Nature wrote that Wikipedia is fairly on par with Encyclopedia Brittanica http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7070/full/438900a.html.

Compare that with the financial world, where the CEOs don't need social approval from us, the community, since they're so isolated from us - we don't communicate at all. The people they communicate with expect their company's stock to keep growing forever, or keep increasing your profits forever, or some such nonsense - partly because, if you don't believe in that philosophy, then you can't access more resources to expand your business, I guess (since, if your stock price / profits / whatever doesn't keep rising then it's more difficult for the business to get more loans, since they'll view that your business isn't worthy of investment, even if that's not true).

It seems to me that, what matters in the end is social approval from your immediate peers - and in the banking world, you need bigger and bigger profits - and there are some great business ideas out there that got burned by this expectation (ex. http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/59/a-sustainable-alternative-to-the-financial-meltdown/all). And with Google starting to shut down a lot of their free services, I think that they're starting to feel this pressure, too.

Well, let those entrepreneurs network. Get a bunch of small business people together in a forum, write down their business ideas, and let the general public (including other business people) upvote/downvote their ideas, and allow people to comment on the quality of the project, and allow a informative/uninformative system on the comments, too, so that the more informative comments get to the top - so the projects with the most upvotes will automatically have public support, or even support from other businesses, and people can just start the business. It will be reddit for real life entrepreneurship!

Who says that you need to get a debt to get more resources? Just get together in a community - and because of the Internet, the community could be HUGE - and start trading. Apparently, the Harry Potter fandom and Wikipedia trade information and entertainment for social approval (for the most part) - why couldn't you trade actual goods for social approval?

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I think you came up with a very good insight: It seems to me that, what matters in the end is social approval from your immediate peers

But this is the problem: Only your peers. And the poor and needy are left out. This is how the world runs. Salomo says: The poor are despised even by their neighbors, while the rich have many "friends." Another thought: Let's compare it to sports: Envy is like a performance enhancing drug: It gives short or medium term advantages, it kind of forces others to do it to but in the end you have a sick organism. This is what has happened. The cure is love and forgiveness.

[-] 1 points by dorrimichaels (6) 3 years ago

When U know Jesus its not about religion. Those that play the religious card show they know not themselves, their maker or the true word of Jesus Christ.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Please help me understand. Now in respect to this post do you say that it is knowing Jesus or religion. And if religion please tell me what is wrong.

[-] 1 points by Triton777 (41) 3 years ago

Hahah I guess freedom of speech doesn't count if it's religious. People here kill me

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I think it is not so bad. What makes me sad, is that the Word of God seems not be gain room. But maybe I am ust impatient

[-] 1 points by Barrylyndon (60) from Chicago, IL 3 years ago

Yes theocracy would work out just great. Have you considered moving to Saudi Arabia?

Also, I think Jesus would have approved of Communism. Remember "It is easier for a camel to travel through the eye of a needle then a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"?

How about Acts 2:44 of the Bible that states "All the believers were together and had everything in common." That sounds an awful lot like communism to me!

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

First of all. Saudia Arabia are palls with the Capitalists. Same problem over there. 1% rule over 99%. Second of all I live in Germany and about 20 years ago the 99% of communist East Germany went on the street and got free because 1% ruled over the 99%. NO matter what system you have riches corrupt the rulers. You need someone who has not a sinful heart like man. Jesus Christ AND you need helo from outside to change the hearts of man. The Gospel provides that.

[-] 1 points by tympan55 (124) 3 years ago

“A house divided against itself cannot stand.”(Mark 3:25) This is a statement that has rung true throughout the ages. Lincoln used it 3 years before the beginning of the Civil War, and wasn’t he dead on the mark? Today, America is a house divided against itself, and the truth of the maxim, “a house divided against itself cannot stand,” again faces the test of validity.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

A very good point. I search in Scripture how God will bring down the mystery power of Revelation which I think comrises the love of money and the rule of the rich as well, so there are prophecies where it is said that one man against another.

[-] 1 points by tympan55 (124) 3 years ago

I too believe in, The End of Days. Here scientists and theologians agree. In religion it is called Revelation. In science it is, "The Big Bang." Each a premonition of our own annihilation.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

No it is not the Revelation I am talking about. Scientiest can not know the works of God. It must come through revelation. Yes there are false prophets out there but also true ones. By there fruit you will know them. A bad tree bears bad fruit. BUt a good one good fruit

[-] 1 points by tympan55 (124) 3 years ago

Although I consider myself a spiritual person, I do not subscribe to any organized religion. I believe that Jesus was a human being through who was expressed a profound transformation that was taking place in humanity- the loss of unequivocal unity brought on by the emergence of ego-consciousness as the determining factor in human existence. Monotheism seeks to reestablish the unequivocal unity of the human spirit split asunder by self-aggrandizement and greed. The. "supernatural," qualities attributed to Jesus I reject as a vestige of an epoch when mythology had yet to be decoded of its psychological reality.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Well after we die we will face the judge of all men Jesus Christ and then you will have full assurance.

[-] 1 points by Nitpicker56 (1) 3 years ago

The concept of money has been around for thousands of years, but only now within the last thirty years or so have things become corrupted by naked corporate greed. Greed can be defined as the reprehensible aquisitiveness; the insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the seven deadly sins) especially material wealth it has come to the point that it has essentially destroyed not only the foundations of a civilised society but is in the process of destroying the social fabric of civilisation as we know it. The trouble is the politicians have not got a clue as to what to do about this, they either don't understand or don't want to understand the root causes of the crisis we are in. All the bail outs and Quantitative easing will not solve the root problems as this is at it's heart a moral crisis rather than a financial one. We need to become less, much less materialistic, learn to become content and yes , much less greedy, i say much less because one will never be able to do away with greedy people as that is their moral compass. But they should be made to understand that their grasping ways will not be tolerated any more and that from now on they will find it a damned sight harder to get more than their fair share. It also means a more fairer distribution of wealth from the haves to the have nots, by giving then the skills and tools to improve their lot in life as well as the support they need while doing it. Capitalism is based on greed, let us not forget this, and greed needs to challenged wherever it raises its ugly head i for one do not have all the answers,but the system must change to something more humane and less destructive, If we can eradicate poverty then a lot of other things will go with it too, hopelessness,despair, disease, hunger to name but a few. The protest must go global i think if those in power are going to finally get the message and were necessary the use of civil disobedience or passive resistance may needed to be employed. I understand the anger, but there are more than one way to push for change than just the use of force, besides that is what those with vested interest would want, to brand us as criminals or terrorists so they can justify themselves to themselves and other like minded people. This will not happen overnight but will take some time, but for the sake of future generations we must

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

Thanks for your reply. When I tried to figure out the Word of God I came to a mystery that is talked about at the very end. In Revelation chapter 17,18,19. The myserty power controls the governments and make the business people rich. It has always beeen around. Look in history and you can see the corruption gong on voery the recorded history. Because of this mystery the autorites forget the cause of the poor and get rich themselves. Is it the love money. Gathering riches instead of relying on God. Anyway the prophecy is that God will remember her sins and take her out. Salomo the wisest of all statemen and professors said. The rich rule over the poor. But the Gospel is geood news of the Kingdom of God. We need a change in government. Jesus Christ, the only loving and faithful enough to make sure laws are not rigged ro benefit the wealthy and oppress the poor.

[-] 1 points by unlabeled (112) 3 years ago

Next evening, drive into the poorest neighborhood in your area and toss out a handful of coins. Charities are too complex, and there is something unfulfilling about handing money to someone who asks for it. In my opinon, it is better to give without being asked. Also, the most likely reciepiant will be a poor child.

[-] 1 points by Matthias (1055) 3 years ago

I don't quite understand what you want to say. Please explain.

[-] 1 points by unlabeled (112) 3 years ago

I'm just saying to drive to a poor neighborhood at night and toss out a handful of change onto the sidewalk. Someone will find it the next morning and be happy. So, find the poorest neighborhood. Because that's where the people need it most

[-] 1 points by tympan55 (124) 3 years ago

It would be great if people gave out of the goodness of their heart, but today most people are worried about their own future- charity begins at home. On the other hand, I worked for many years as a fundraiser for a non-profit organization (and yes, I was paid for it). I truly believed in the good work of the organization and worked really hard on their behalf. I know from experience that asking for money for others in need is an agonizing and thankless job.

[-] 1 points