Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Flat Tax, "Fair" Tax and 9-9-9 - oh my!

Posted 9 years ago on Oct. 13, 2011, 3:23 a.m. EST by Lork (285)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-flat-tax-is-unfair/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-a-flat-tax-costs-the-poor-more/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/flat-tax-is-a-scam-fight-the-infiltrators-with-som/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/end-trickle-down-raise-taxes-on-the-rich-thats-the/

Okay so the person in the third thread supported a "Fair" Tax which is basically a universal sales tax of 20%, which is even more regressive than the Flat Tax.

The "Fair" Tax will increase the cost of living displacing the middle class faster, fucking the everloving shit out of the poor, allowing the rich to hoard their money much more effectively and in effect, kill our economy by killing demand. Much like "Free" Trade. (RIP - Bay Area Tech Jobs)

Now some people here want to "be rich and make it someday". Other are "worried about being crushed before I start". I agree with you.

Also quoting ARod1993 -

"For you to create a business that can make it to the top you have to sell a product to people. This means that people have to buy your product. If there's a big fat tax on spending your money and no taxes on saving it or investing it or gambling with it, then people will by a lot less stuff and think a lot more carefully before they open their wallet to you. This means almost no impulse buys of your product, and far fewer sales in general. Fewer sales = less profit = a harder road to the top for the little guy. In effect, the Fair Tax comes out of the small businessman's pocket 90% of the time through reduced consumption."

Also -

"As far as flat taxation is concerned, we covered it in my AP Micro/Macro class last year and it is (while not as bad as a lump sum flat tax) still hardly a progressive taxation scheme. I read about the "Fair Tax" thanks to a guy I ran into on the OWS forum by the name of Jeff Block. He...wants to fall back onto the ultraconservative model of a balanced-budget amendment and abolishing all taxes besides the 20% consumption tax; everything else should be on the states (he thinks so; I don't) The Fair Tax is by definition about as regressive as a tax can get (unless you want to talk lump sum taxes like in the 1300s)...strategic income tax reform at the federal level will actually reduce the net tax burden you'll have to worry about, which means that you'll have an easier time getting to the top of the heap."

(Yes he was partly quoted.)

In short - "Fair" Tax will absolutely kill this country by killing demand much like our FTAs. Flat Tax will trick the middle and lower classes into lowering taxes for the rich. 9-9-9...well...that is self explanatory...I think some people called it "Starving the Beast".

I will tell you right now that the real beast is the 1% who outsource and then buy our government so that they can write laws that favor them. That being said our politicians are just as guilty.

As for raising taxes on the wealthy...

http://ntu.org/tax-basics/history-of-federal-individual-1.html http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-flat-tax-is-unfair/#comment-70544

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4233669http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/96summer/p96su10.cfm http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,155487,00.html http://www.invent.org/hall_of_fame/1_1_6_detail.asp%3FvInventorID=66

(And please don't say "moon rocks". We really do need investment to become great again.)

29 Comments

29 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 1 points by TomHall (58) 9 years ago

”TOCSFAE” IS TOXIC TO THE BANKERS

From the beginning when our country was formed we face many challenges and many opposing views

Just like today however, the peoples voices have been silence by special interest groups as well as the over whelming power grab by the bankers. Your demands/petitions will never be heard or taken seriously unless lobbyist/corporate have bless it for greedy reasons or Co-Opt it.

It is time for a fair hearing!

Wouldn’t it be great if you can be heard, fairly and equally? Wouldn’t it be worth your time to know there is a petition list, worth signing rather then getting involved in so many other worthy causes? Can be a drain, especially knowing many of lists of issues will mostly not be look at or simply be voted downed.

It can also be time consuming.

This is were the 7’step plan an ever growing list known as the “TOCSFAE” doctrine helps just about every cause, the cause that helps almost all other causes should be supported. These step plans, solves many of the roots of all our problems we face.

Whether you have protested at the gas pump or you are an Occupier and Tea Partier, for that matter any protest mover, make your protest have meaning, give it the teeth it needs beyond the gas pump and over the protest lines.

This petition will be a notification to congress of things yet to come and to properly prepare.

As of January 2012 we the people

We will not take the abuse anymore and neither should they walk around with there heads in the sand.

We will begin the process of phase one

Your petition will go to congress, informing them you support The “TOCS FAE” Doctrine and so should they, by making preparations for receiving and forwarding income Tax mail. Your petition will also go to the top corporations letting them know of our intentions and they too should support and act on the doctrine by sending their taxes directly to congress. They should also be informed if our demands are not met, protests will be under way the likes they have never seen.

After this is achieved and we have broken the back of a few select Corporations we will move on to Step1 Taxes which may take months or years

Step1) Send your TAXES to a trusted congressman or congresswoman which maybe hard to find in your state. Make a Petition with your neighbors. Phone, email, fax your congress your list and intentions. Prepare your taxes, made out to the I.R.S check and envelope, and a stamp. Fit it in inside of a bigger envelope, onto which you should write congress address, preferably your state congress.

Example

Washington, DC 203 Cannon House Office Building Washington, DC 20515 Phone Number: (202) 225-2831

Have congress unwrap the envelopes, state you want your taxes to be mailed to the I.R.S

If you are asking yourself, what will this achieve first it can be used as a bargain chip however, congress cannot spend it or over take the fed reserve and banks system over night, nonetheless this will indeed give teeth/meat, back to congress. You should include a sign return receipt so as to show proof you paid your taxes.

For the rest Click http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/

click http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/tocsfae

Occupy funny pix http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/apps/blog/

If you are interested in expressing this message to the Occupy General Assembly you should present the ”TOCSFAE” Doctrine in David Ferola’s name, and claim you are him, for solidarity purpose.

[-] 1 points by GinaLola (210) 9 years ago

I've changed my thinking about evil, ex-Federal Reserve puppet and now fog horn for the Fed- candidate Herman Cain. I can see where 9-9-9- might work. First, no one under the top 9 percent pays any tax at all since most of it only goes to their tax loopholes, grants and mega-industrial complex constant waring and colonizing the world with corporate bull shit. The second 9% is what they will pay off on all earned and unearned income with all the tax loop holes being retroactively closed for private and corporate taxes. And the third 9% will be the percentage of income corporations and the upper 9 percent will pay in yearly reparations to those of us in the 99% of the people in this country for systematically engaginging in practices to keep the poor, poor; the infirmed, infirmed; the uneducated, uneducated; the under represented, under represented. That's my simple 9-9-9 tax plan.

[-] 1 points by JeffBlock2012 (272) 9 years ago

(sarcastic) I think we should have the most fair tax there could be - a per capita head tax of $10,000 per year, for each man, woman, and child who wants to live in our country. That would be revenue neutral for our Federal Government, collecting $3 trillion per year.

How can one argue that is not FAIR? Everyone with a pulse pays the same tax, regardless of gender, race, age, or ability to pay. Now that would be true equality!

(now non-sarcastic) I'm not sure why you mentioned me in your post. The Fair Tax is supported by about 20 million citizens, and is a bill in Congress supported by about 70 Congresspeople. By posting that the Fair Tax is regressive means you have not looked at it's structure at all before criticizing it. I'm not sure what you mean by "everything else should be on the states" as the Fair Tax is calculated to be revenue neutral to federal income tax collections. Educate yourself at http://www.FairTax.org

[-] 1 points by Lork (285) 9 years ago

Jeff -

I don't see how what I just described is different from that video. It DOES discourage consumption which is what this country needs. It punishes the poor-

http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-a-flat-tax-costs-the-poor-more/

(Oh why oh WHY must I keep reposting links?)

-and displaces the middle class along with crushing demand which is bad for small businesses especially. Also - IT WOULD COMPLETELY IGNORE capital gains and dividends tax which is where the 1% derive MOST of their income from! Plus - it encourages hoarding which is like the guy I quoted said - bad for small businesses.

I was not debating burden like you suggest. I WAS debating rates and then I explained why it was incredibly regressive. Also - "everything else should be on the states" was what the guy I quoted said that YOU said. Not me.

It will be FAR from revenue neural. It will EXCLUSIVELY favor the ultra rich and act like a Super Mosquito to the government coffers, and after that they'll DEFINITELY have to call it a Depression.

Maybe -you- should be looking at the structure much closely.

Also - A 20% consumption tax? Do you realize that the highest it gets usually is around 10%?

How the hell are you going to raise revenue in -any- way if you eliminate capital gains tax and the dividends tax? How are people going to consume and stimulate the economy if they are facing a heavy tax on goods (are services also included too?)?

[-] 1 points by JeffBlock2012 (272) 9 years ago

Do you understand the pre-bate provision of the Fair Tax?

[-] 1 points by Lork (285) 9 years ago

Then tell me how -you- see it then.

Because I saw the video. I went to the site. I talked to another who supports "Fair" Tax. And I still reach the same conclusion.

Maybe you were just ignoring everything I just wrote here?

So please. Inform me. What invisible sentence or word or whatever did I not see?

Also -

"Exactly what taxes are abolished?

The Fair Tax is replacement, not reform. It replaces FEDERAL INCOME TAXES including personal, estate, gift, CAPITAL GAINS, alternative minimum, SOCIAL SECURITY, Medicare, self-employment, and CORPORATE TAXES."

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq_answers

Are you high? In what universe will this get us -out- of the recession? Sounds like a fast course to the next Great Depression to me.

Th whole "poor don't need to pay" seems more like a "yeah whatever" thing intended to garner support from the poor. Well - this will displace the middle class. This WILL lead to the death of many social programs and basic services that keep this place running. So poor don't need to pay sales tax...as well as having their benefits cut. This just seems to be a provision that makes "being poor" look attractive. Because "why be middle class if I have to pay taxes" right? Nobody -needs- to be middle class I suppose right?

"Kill the beast" indeed...along with the rest of America except for the uber rich.

[-] 1 points by JeffBlock2012 (272) 9 years ago

So you don't believe eliminating corporate taxes at the federal level would repatriate $trillions currently sitting offshore? Or a 0% corporate tax rate would be incentive for businesses worldwide to locate here?

Yes, it is replacement that also eliminates huge costs of compliance, anywhere estimated from $200 billion to $400 billion annually. We've created a "tax industry" because the tax code is so complicated. This is really a tax on a tax, paying your tax-preparer to figure out your taxes. It's reform if you consider a tax code that is simple, transparent, and fair(er) to be reform.

If you think a sales tax would destroy America, check out the 45 States that have sales taxes and the few that have a sales tax but NO income tax.

The pre-bate feature changes the math of a sales tax to make it progressive.

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 9 years ago

At this point the tax codes do need reforming, but "reforming the tax code"is not the same as cutting taxes or flattening tax rates. What we have right now is essentially a maze of Swiss cheese comprised of differing federal, state and local taxes. I choose that analogy because the ordinary guy who plays by the rules and pays his taxes when they come due no matter how onerous gets lost in the maze and finds his bank account half empty by the time it's over with because of burgeoning property taxes, obscure little rules, etc. while the millionaire or large corporation has the option of hiring a lawyer (or posse thereof), finding every single hole in the tax code, and proceeding to drive a Humvee through it.

What does this have to do with you? If you hear the words "progressive taxation" and immediately think "Shit. There goes my savings..." then it has everything to do with you. When most people think of taxes they think of property taxes, gas taxes, sales taxes, etc. that never seem to go down or go away and look like a really nasty way of nickel-and-diming you out of your hard-earned money. And, in fact, they probably are: consumption and property taxes tend to be among the most regressive forms of taxation and you are right to want relief.

Here's how tightening the tax code and even modestly raising federal income taxes on a national level may help you out: the types of taxes that I outlined above are generally administered on a state and/or local level to directly subsidize hospitals/schools/roads/etc. in your neighborhood. Nobody likes them, but they're a necessary means of balancing state and local budgets when federal grants can't keep pace with community reinvestment. Put simply, if administering and maintaining a top--flight high school costs $80 million per year and your district only gets $50 million from the federal and state governments, that extra $30 million has to come from somewhere.

If the wealthiest Americans and corporations paid out the actual nominal tax rates upfront to both the feds and the state governments (for those states with income and corporate taxes), then it might well be possible for everyone from the working class guy to the upper-middle class guy to have their cake and eat it too. More money in the federal coffers equals more money that the feds can give to state and local governments for things like schools and roads, and thus less money these governments have to raise on their own. This then means that many of the most onerous state and local taxes (including the hated property taxes) would stop going up and in certain cases might even go down without any reduction in services provided.

What people need to know is that real tax reform won't hurt them a bit if they've been playing by the spirit of the law and not the letter; closing loopholes and "redistribution of ill-gotten gains" or however else they're going to see it posted here is simply a catchier way of saying that we want to put the letter of the law back in line with the spirit in which it was enacted. Now, if you've gotten accustomed to working the loopholes and looking to pay as close to no taxes as possible, then that should be a scary prospect. If, on the other hand, you've been doing things the right way all along you should welcome us; if everyone else starts paying their fair share the way you already do, that actually translates to less civic and financial responsibility for you.

[-] 1 points by Lork (285) 9 years ago

Wow. Now I really feel sorry for you. Because Bush did something like that once by eliminating tariffs so that "outsourcers can invest here". Do you know what happened? The outsourcers got deregulated and made EVEN MORE profits at our expense.

Let me tell you something - the outsourcers will -never- invest here until this country is a Third World country. What we -really- should be doing is enacting at least some protectionist measures like the measures that other countries have against us. We should also STOP subsidizing oil to cut shipping costs. And if you still want trade - push for fairer trade! Trade with countries that actually honor their agreements and don't use slave labor! Geez!

If you think you're going to convince anyone by ignoring the other taxes that we pay everyday (like payroll, income, etc.) then you are misguided. What I think will destroy America is removing ALL taxes from the uber rich. The uber rich who want the rest of the nation to become Somalia! THAT is the only way we will be "investable" to them. Well...we -could- try to retrain everyone to have a useful and in-demand skill set, but that would ignore the fact that other countries are already ahead of us there.

The pre-bate will make no difference, because by it's very nature, it is still the most regressive tax scheme ever.

[-] 1 points by JeffBlock2012 (272) 9 years ago

so I guess you're not going to vote for me?

[-] 1 points by GinaLola (210) 9 years ago

We already have a flat tax system. The increase percentage on the wealthy increases just slightly in our system. If they flatten out completely, it favors them. the closer we get to power, the more they are going to put tax ideas that obscure the truth out there in the media to save their own hides, like the 9-9-9 bull shit. And now is not the time for balanced budget amendments. We need to grow the economy first by direct specific demands for USA products and then returning 50 million jobs back to the USA. Once the unemployment depression is addressed, we can slash the budget on oil and energy companies, big pharma, big farma and every other leaching conglomerate in this country.

[-] 1 points by Lork (285) 9 years ago

http://www.npr.org/2011/09/19/140599307/does-buffett-rule-add-up-for-obama-deficit-plan

"Williams says the rich tend to get most of their money from capital gains and dividends."

We need to beware of people like Buffet too.

[-] 1 points by ConcernedEconomist (67) 9 years ago

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/11/richard-lowrie-herman-cain-tax-plan_n_1006201.html

"According to Lowrie's LinkedIn profile, his education tops out with a Bachelor of Science in accountancy from Case Western University. He has no formal training in economics, and there is no indication that he has ever worked on public policy."

[-] 1 points by Lork (285) 9 years ago

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/13/herman-cain-999-sim-city_n_1008952.html?ref=mostpopular

I heard he likes Sim City.

Also -

http://www.npr.org/2011/09/19/140599307/does-buffett-rule-add-up-for-obama-deficit-plan

"Williams says the rich tend to get most of their money from capital gains and dividends."

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 9 years ago

And then it will encourage those who CAN hoard money to do so. How does hoarding money help grow the economy? It doesn't!

[-] 1 points by FuManchu (619) 9 years ago

Who is hoarding money? You mean saving?

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 9 years ago

Yes, saving. As this quote above said:

ARod1993 -

"For you to create a business that can make it to the top you have to sell a product to people. This means that people have to buy your product. If there's a big fat tax on spending your money and no taxes on saving it or investing it or gambling with it, then people will by a lot less stuff and think a lot more carefully before they open their wallet to you. This means almost no impulse buys of your product, and far fewer sales in general. Fewer sales = less profit = a harder road to the top for the little guy. In effect, the Fair Tax comes out of the small businessman's pocket 90% of the time through reduced consumption."

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 9 years ago

Any kind of national sales tax is going to be "regressive" - harder on poor and middle classes.

Any money you aren't able to save each month will be taxed at whatever rate the sales tax is. 9% sales plus 9% payroll for the 999 plan, 20% under "FAIR"

If you spend every penny to pay your bills, you'll be screwed.

[-] 1 points by Lork (285) 9 years ago

http://www.npr.org/2011/09/19/140599307/does-buffett-rule-add-up-for-obama-deficit-plan

"Williams says the rich tend to get most of their money from capital gains and dividends."

We need to be careful when we say thing like "raise taxes" and raise taxes on wealthy" I agree.

[-] 2 points by daffyff (104) from Redwood City, CA 9 years ago

9-9-9 would federalize taxes further (where would state income come from?) consolidating more power into the hands of the few. We need to go the opposite direction

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 9 years ago

yea, the 999 plan will do away with capital gains tax completely

Cain is a GENIUS but not the kind we want to support

[-] 1 points by MadAsHellInTX (598) from Shepherd, TX 9 years ago

Cain is an idiot.

999 was written by someone at Goldman Sucks. When questioned about the impact of 999, or even how it works, Cain said he didn't know.

[-] 1 points by Lork (285) 9 years ago

Bingo.

Also - The NPR article is a bit misleading. 50% is still very regressive compared to the post-War era. (where it was 90%)

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-flat-tax-is-unfair/#comment-70544

http://ntu.org/tax-basics/history-of-federal-individual-1.html

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/96summer/p96su10.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,155487,00.html

So let's see...back when taxes were "high" we had a moon landing, the creation of the highway system and the microprocessor for three things. Therefore it did -not- kill investment.

Also - you'll see the most regressive tax area to be somewhere around the late Coolidge and the early Hoover era. (Even more regressive than we are right now by around 10%)

I think you know where I am going here.

Meet The Great Depression

http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/depression/depression.htm

There is just no excuse. The 1% have no excuse at all.