Forum Post: The Tea Party will win
Posted 13 years ago on Aug. 4, 2012, 3:06 p.m. EST by organize1134
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OWS has no hope of success without change. The Tea Party is organized, well funded, and well defined. OWS is nothing but anger and undirected energy. While the Tea Party has candidates for congress, Super PACs, a specific policy platform, and a national organization OWS has a general goal of defeating, what, wealth?
The Government is not your enemy, the Tea Party is. The Government is not the problem, those in Congress pushing for cutting taxes for the wealthy and raising them on the poor are. The media can be your friend if you let it be, but they will not help you if you give them nothing to report.
Without a specific set of policy goals taxes will continue to fall for the rich, the poor will still be exploited, and all social changes that we have fought for over the past 50 years will be overturned.
If you want a real solution to the concentration of wealth among the 1% raise the Capital Gains tax from 15 to 35%, raise the taxes on those making 1 million a year to 45%, raise the estate tax to 70%. Eliminate all corporate tax loopholes and then raise the corporate tax rate to 40%.
With these tax increases ensure that every american has health coverage by expanding medicare and medicaid to cover all those less than 150% of the poverty line and offering a public health insurance provider to keep the private companies honest. Ensure that all Americans have enough to eat by increasing spending and eligibility to food stamps. And provide a free college education to all citizens, shifting the cost of public universities from the students to the 1%, who currently benefit from their education without helping with the cost.
These changes ensure that every american has an equal shot at happiness, and that wealth is not hereditary.
I call on whoever claims to be in charge of OWS with a plea: 1) Adopt these policies or those like them 2) Begin searching for candidates to run for congress in the 2014 election cycle 3) Stop your pig headed opposition to PACs
Please, do not let the sacrifices of those who have protested across the world go to waste by letting the movement die without making a real change.
The movement is close to drawing its last breath, at least try to make it a shout
They may be organized but all they've done so far is damage.
I think part of the message was that it doesn't matter if the tea party has been good or bad. They have demonstrated that change through the system is possible. Occupy had the opportunity to make real change but has so far avoided becoming involved in the system. That move is viewed as a mistake.
The tea party has achieved some success (by their measure of success obviously, not yours) on a national level because they have moved to use the system. Standing outside the system exchanging ideas, demonstrating, pointing out corruption may be emotionally satisfying but it's not going to effect any real change. The message is more one of get involved more directly with elections or fade into irrelevance.
"Occupy" is still less than a year old and its key role is to affect a change in consciousness (see bw's reply to o1143's comment below).
"The System" is corrupt. Struggling for "real change" is long and hard. "Standing outside" has many strategic advantages for now and helps resist co-option. 'OWS' is still really young but has made and continues to make, a very significant contribution to the political discourse in The U$A.
So IF ... "The message is more one of get involved more directly with elections or fade into irrelevance." - then "The Message" is deeply suspect.
Consider : In demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy U$A - "Elections" increasingly "fade into irrelevance".
ad iudicium ...
Civil Rights, the environmental movement, the anti-war movement, these were social movements also. Without legislative support they would never have had any success.
It's only my opinion, but the relative youth of Occupy is no excuse for choosing political impotence. I don't see Occupy as being able to accomplish much in the long run, if this is it's strategy.
Please do NOT 'put the cart before the horse', as you really seem to display a mistaken or wilful - serious and fundamental 'chicken and egg' confusion !!!
"Civil Rights, the environmental movement, the anti-war movement, these were social movements" but "the legislative support" HAD to follow ... because society had changed !!
"Legislative support" had to come or else 'The Legislature' would've become irrelevant !
Finally, please read and reflect upon :
ad iudicium ...
I understand your point, but read my message below to organize1134 and maybe you'll understand mine. Peace.
I understand and we'll have to agree to disagree on what course of action is best. As I mentioned above in a response to shadz, other social movement have found success by pressing a legislative agenda.
It's been co-opted by the same people that co-opted the teabagge(R)s.
This co-option was designed to make OWS ineffective politically and painted in a poor light.
There are other voices in OWS, but they seem to be getting drowned out.
http://www.politicususa.com/occupy-inspires-vote-voting-inspires-occupy.html
OWS "co-opted" ?!!! By who ?!! When & how did this happen ?!
minima maxima sunt ...
CATO/neolibe(R)tarians/Karl Rove/Heritage.
Take your pick, all of the above, or one they designed just that purpose.
Are you really suggesting that these '0.01% agents' that you list, have "co-opted" OWS ?!!! Are you prepared to admit that that is opinion rather than fact ?!! Can you substantiate or corroborate with any links by way of cursory evidence ?! Are you feeling a bit low and tired buddy & d'you need a cuddle ?
pax, amor et lux ...
Of course it's an opinion, shadz.
I can present nothing but circumstantial evidence, but there is a plethora of it.
How else do you explain the change in direction?
How else do you explain how a movement that came on the scene and shook the pillars of power in this nation, has had so much of that power stripped from it?
I don't believe in coincidence, nor can I accept the BS reasons I've seen posted for it here.
Through deduction, that leaves me with co-option.
I'm basing the libe(R)tarian conclusion, based on what I've seen posted on the forum, and I've been here for a while.
It makes the most sense, as there are enough similarities for them to easily separate the core of anarchists from the plethora of moderates that supported us in those early days.
I saw many more of them come to this very site.
In those early days, I have little doubt that there were agents that were paid to be here.
For what exact purpose? I don't know.
It would seem to be as easy as chasing off moderates, and isolating the more extreme among us.
That's how marketing/PR works.
Oh, I still very much believe in the future of Occupy.
The seed was planted, the roots are still growing, co-option has prevented the stem from receiving the light.............for now.
What could have happens in 20-30 years, will now take upwards of 100.
The 99% will pay those costs too. Some among us on the forum have been actively cheering for it.
If that doesn't make you sad, I don't know what will
Occupy is a 'State of Mind' & this forum is NOT 'The Movement' !!!
I very much agree with you that demoralisation, subversion and co-option of 'OWS' is the implicit/explicit purpose of many Libertarian, Republican and Right-Wing Organisations and some of the individuals here but I absolutely do NOT think that they have succeeded !!
You sound possibly at a low ebb and I extend my best wishes to you personally as you do a lot of good here. Eat and drink well and ensure that you get as much sunlight as you can and perhaps even more importantly ... hook up in real time & real life with other occupiers & like minded, progressive change seekers. Chin up & eyes on the long view mate !
respice, adspice, prospice ...
You've highly underestimated the power of multi-pronged marketing/PR.
Those who believe themselves immune are actually some of the most vulnerable.
It isn't there just to sell you laundry soap.
not accepting the put it off
from the government and media
Who knows, maybe they are the co-opters.
Which is my point. They do nothing but damage and we do nothing to stop them
It is a valid point, but while people try to compare the Tea Party to OWS, the two are very different. The Tea Party is a political movement operating within the Republican party. OWS is more of a social movement operating outside the realm of the current system. OWS seeks deeper and broader, sweeping change, really, to how we think of ourselves as a nation and especially how we organize ourselves economically. OWS just does not fit in with the way things are organized now. I am not a spokesperson for OWS but I think it seeks to change the way humans fundamentally view their relationships to one another in this country and globally.
No one could've put it better.
Thanks. :)
I love this comment so much! Spot on!
upvote for a beautiful world!
Thanks. :) Not easy stuff to convey.
Truth.
When you talk sweeping change - could this be part of it?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proper-reform-what-do-you-think/
I, personally, believe that the way we value labor is more important than how we divide up the tax burden. Let's divide up the profits fairly first, then worry about the tax rates.
as a world
Well said BW as always well said.
Society is in the middle of a social breakdown. Just wait till the markets crash, and the free checks stop. Its going to be bedlahm.
Can't wait.
Be careful what you wish for. Who or what has the organization to offer security and safety to the population if there is a collapse. In 1930's Spain it was the anarchists that were organized and more importantly well armed. Who might have the arms and organization to step in and even be welcomed, if the economy collapsed and people became frightened enough?
There may be a lot of poor, but they are still a minority and even the poor might sacrifice freedom for security to protect whatever few things they may have.
I was being facetious.
Sorry hard to tell on here sometimes and many make similar statements but are serious about it.
No problem at all. And, I'm not saying hchc isn't right, because sadly, I think he may be.
well if it does crumble don't run to the woods,,i live in the woods,,,they spray so many chemicals on the forest that it leaches into the ground,most people i know do not bother to garden anymore,,it will grow but it doesn't have much fruit,,,i go hunting in the wilderness,,,twice i have been escorted back to the civilian area by soldiers,,,they know if you are faced with a crumbled economy you will try to go to the woods and (hunt/farm),,,,,,,gmo seed is sterile(it will grow one crop),,if you collect the seed and replant it will grow pretty plants but have no babies,(food),,,,and none of you have water wells dug in your back yard,,,,,,go to the creek and dip some out ,,,now try to remove the "?" that's in it and mix up some simulac and put it in your babies bottle,,,,go out on the patio and try to grow enough food for your family to eat,,,,,lets see now,,,,no one has garden seeds that are not hybrid or gmo,,,,all the water is polluted,,,,,,,,and all the mighty hunters have come for years and fed gmo corn to the deer and pigs,,,and set in their canned hunts to shoot them,,,,,,,,now lets say day after tomorrow the markets crash,,,,you all get laid off,,,,,there's a rush on the banks and then you all swarm the grocery stores and empty the shelves,,,,,,,,then you eat up all you got and when it comes time to pay the elec. bill you cant and they shut it off,,,,,,,well you narrow it down to the water(cause that's the most important),,till the day comes that you turn the knob on the sink and "nothing",,,,,,,,,then you run to the woods and try to sneak up on a deer,,,,,,,,"i can do it,and it's harder than sneaking away from you with part of the deer in my back pack",,,,,,sounds like a spooky story don't it?,,,,the great depression was just a spook story too,,,,,,,,oh yea right "you got your credit score,sprinkle salt and pepper on it and set your family down for dinner",,,you pack a ham in sugar cure in the winter,,,,it will cure in brine on the porch,,,,,,,and you can can all the low acid fruits on a fire in boiling water in a hole you dug in the yard,,,,,,,,,,,in the war we looked at all the replacements,and the ones who were going to die we put on point,,,,we needed to because we didn't want to put the able soldiers on point and sacrifice them and some one needed to walk point,,,always keep the able soldiers in the camp,,when they fire at those on point you will see a lot of information,,,i can move from there,,,,,it's the hardest thing to say to someone "you are on point",,,,you must first think you will not make it anyway,and then look to the ones who are able to,,,now will the weaker be all around me in that day?no i will send those that i see will not make it to the front and put those who are in their prime in defense of the house,,that is you are on point,,,,,,when i see the world coming apart,,,,in the cities,,,,,,,i will know you have made contact,,,,,,draw a line in the sand so deep and fill it with blood that i may come with the able bodied and drown them in it,,,,,who is the fool who volunteers for point and who am i to look into his face and see is the one who has volunteered?,,,he is out of shape and will wind out in 45 seconds,,,,,,he cannot run but tries,,,,,the thing he gave his life to me to say was a flash of light from all the directions,,,,,,,"and then i knew,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"
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A really good posts, I agree with almost everything, but I only call on each person to hear, read, learn, and do what they think is best. I hope that every one who cares about the issues that has caused OWS to take to the streets, will try to decide how they can best help, then do it.
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Serious water work needs to be done - as I do believe we will see another 30's style dust bowl and even if we were to switch over to all green tech for power and industry immediately today - we will still be riding out the effects of our damaged environment for quite a while.
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Water work will need to be done. What we have done to the environment is gonna have real nasty and no-doubt long term consequences - we may well see the expansion of American deserts.
In a head to head engagement for changing the country? Of course they will win. By default. They are the only ones offering anything new or different from the politics as usual crowd at the ballot box.
Nope.
Teabagge(R)s just continue to feed you the neolibe(R)tarian BS.
Just a bit stronger than you are used to.
There's nothing new about them, besides the fact that they are tyrants.
You misunderstand, I'm not evaluating their agenda or approving of it. It doesn't matter what they are. I'm saying that right now they are the only agent for change actually working within the system. They are achieving electoral victories, that is a simple fact. They may be the new Nazi's, that doesn't take away from the fact that they are winning seats in Congress.
I take the initial post to be a warning that if Occupy continues to remain on the sidelines, when it comes to electoral involvement, it will fade into irrelevance. It simply sites the lesson shown by the tea party that change from within is possible. You seem to be letting your hatred of the group blind you to that valuable lesson.
You misunderstand me.
I too lament the day OWS was co-opted to the point that fear prevented them from getting involved at that level.
I was one of those, that early on called for the formation of the "Open Source Party".
Even going so far as to outline how it would work, with aim toward maintaining the anarchy at the core.
"Co-opted" ?!!! What are talking about ?!! By who ?!
Strikes me that OWS is trying to resist 'Co-option' !
ad iudicium ...
Here in the US?
The same people that co-opted the teabagge(R)s.
It should be obvious by the libe(R)tarian bent here on forum.
Calls for a "free market" and a return to the gold standard?
Welcome to Karl Rove land.
Is that really your thought out answer !!! There may be Right-wing "Libertarians" on the forum here but does that mean 'OWS' has been "co-opted" ?!! We all feel despondent at times but chin up & forwards !
ad iudicium ...
Teabagge(R)s raised my taxes!!
They're actually worse than the rest. They HATE education too.
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the tea party also has followers that eat up propaganda for breakfast
I largely agree with most that was said here. OWS had some power and momentum behind them for sure. it happened, and, now, their moment may have passed. I argued this point many times and was gunned down regularly by the OWS philosophy of we're going change everything from outside the system. We'll abolish the party system and replace with God knows what but we'll be blazing our own very special new path. (If only we really knew what that was, maybe not so easy to grasp). They see the political parties as one and the same. Very odd. D=R . And either party is a wrecker destroying our way of life. Therefore screw the party system. It made sense before, but now it makes no sense. Abolish.
To me, that's immaturity, or let's make it even more particular, it's political immaturity. They act like politics is some aberration invented by some demons somewhere. (Politics is a discourse we have with our government of which all countries have one, or their in trouble because the citizens can agree on nothing). OWS will come from the outside the normal system. Not through the party system
History is a lesson. Always is. But one OWS ignores. They are repeating one right now but they wouldn't know it because their too busy changing those things what ever they are from the outside. It's a conspiracy in secret to dismantle all the mantles of government. If anyone speaks of them in Washington it's to put them down if it's the GOTP and the dems have heaped some praise on them, from time to time, like Bernie Sanders, but OWS wants nothing to do with them, shuns them, and lumps them with the Tea Party, any Party is BAD, as they say. No Party Politics, the Dems are as bad as the repugs.
I'm democrat at heart, and I've been pushed away by people in this movement, by their stated philosophy. If we affiliate with a party they have no need for us. Better button your lip. Of course as the trolls demean us by calling every bad name in the book. I guess the outside shot is Anarchy. That's the outside fight, which, yes, I confirm, it's outside alright. There's a history lesson here. Hey Maybe the Anarchy Party, haha, they can't call it a Party though. No deal. Strange Daze. Anarchy won't get them far anyway, it's doomed before it starts.
Your right, absolutely. They had great interest from many. Democrats largely saw them as from their side. An answer to the Tea Party, But nope. ANd they made a point to say we not getting co-opted from the democrats. They won't choose one over the other because again, no difference, one and the same. Makes watching the debates like some twilight zone episode where the aliens will come down and have us on their dining menu. Ummm.
Well, fine. For the rest of us we have damn big election coming and it means one hell of lot even though OWS doesn't believe it. This is where we need to put energy and effort into getting democrats into office. It matters and if we lose, income disparity will only continue to widen as we know Mittney promises to cut the Rich's taxes even further. The middle class will pay more to compensate them. But, OWS, never mind. I though OWS cared about that, but they are contradicted by their philosophy.
But truly someone tell how their going to change income disparity that without becoming Political?
Do they really believe letting Mittney into the White House doesn't matter at all so they are staying out of the fray because all so wise?
So, if I'm active democrat, I am to be shunned here?
Shall we just let the troll shills talk party politics, blast Obama at every turn, and we of class, take of disconnected issues having nothing to do with politics, or at least acting as such.
Shall we pretend Politics has nothing to do with WE THE PEOPLE?
I guess.....Instead we can talk of what I want, not we. Or what you want. Leave We out of it.
Excuse me, A-hem, what happened to Rational Critical Thinking?
"It's like we're swimming in the water while claiming there is none."
Get a grip OWS, and I say this because I care.
Come Together NOW
*But most of all, come together and VOTE! No matter what they say here, it matters, don't believe the propaganda. Our right to vote is made for us in blood. It is WE THE PEOPLE. And, in the end, we have no one to blame but ourselves. But as we see they are many hypocrites here who have yet to have civics course in how government. They just assume from their rage that it's ALL WRONG. None of it right.
READ YOUR HISTORY. Jefferson had it right. Now go back and find out why. Otherwise you have a deep disrespect for truth. Then may have a shot to understand why if you don't change IT from within, YOU AIN"T NEVER GONNA CHANGE IT FROM THE OUTSIDE. If you really hold onto to that dream then imagine having to go over millions of dead bodies to get there, one of them being mine, the framework and the founding of this country is sound and we defend with life and have done so for 200 yrs now.
So, let me see. Young posters. Have at it. I even invite the wise ones amongst us to drop a few pearls of wisdom here. Let's hear the rationale. I want evident truths only. I'm striking at the reality here. That's what I want. We will see how it turns out, history will write this lesson, although few will bother to read them. None the less, for those of us who have paid attention and followed the path truth took us, let's have some good insight. This discussion in my opinion is precursor to what reality will actually unfold. Let's peel it back honestly.
Enlighten US on why OWS takes a back seat while a big election bares down on this country and will affect every one of us in BIG way.
How many Tea party candidates are there in Congress. Jim Demint, Rand Paul, Marko Rubio, Mike Lee already in the senate with Ted Cruz and Richard Mourdock set to join them. In the House, the Tea party Caucus outnumbers the Black Congressional Congress by 20 members.
The OWS caucus isn't even a thing. Who is more likely to pass legislation favorable to their cause
R YoU 0n dRUgzzz ?!!!
ne quid nimis ...
Worra load of Koch sucking, "astroturf" bollocks ?!!!
Tea Party "well funded"? By who ?!! Et Cui Bono ?!!!
ad iudicium ...
Elizabeth Warren speaks truth in her new TV ad.
liawatha?
The Fauxcahontas who says the rich should pay more taxes, then refuses to optionally pay more taxes in her home state
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http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/donordemographics.php
Current election cycle stats-see how close the stats really are between Dems and Repubs and tell the truth. Or keep lying and thinking others are too stupid or lazy to actually search for the facts on their own.
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Wealth concentration in the government is the problem, not in private hands.
If by win you mean they will be played by the establishment, and then over half of them (34/66) will then vote for the largest credit card the world has ever seen, in the middle of a debt crisis.
They got played. You got played. They are playing the entire nation. The whole nation is waiting eagerly for Nov 5th, and then we will all got place our lone vote, and hope everything magically changes.
What a freakin joke.
There is no credit card. Federal budgets are not household budgets. Silver and gold are not real wealth, but commodities. The debt crisis is a political tool used to scare those not familiar with macroeconomics.
MMT.
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/10/tea-party-loving-republican-senate.html
How much money has OWS contributed?
....because money is the only way you can think of to bring about change?
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