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Forum Post: Syria - foreign aggression?

Posted 13 years ago on Aug. 6, 2012, 3:51 a.m. EST by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

In an interview to be published in the Aug. 10 edition of EIR magazine, Dr. Bassam El-Hachem, professor at the Lebanese University in Beirut, and leading figure in Gen. Michel Aoun's Free Patriotic Tendency (Courant Patriotique Libre, CPL), charges that the current assault on the Assad regime is not a civil war, but the result of foreign aggression.

"This is a foreign war against Syria, decked out in the finery of a resistance movement against a dictatorial, authoritarian regime," El-Hachem said. In this sense it is similar to the war which ravaged Lebanon in the 1970s, which was fed by foreign sources.

Dr. El-Hachem and the Aoun movement have had a long history of opposition to the Syrian government, but General Aoun has recently spoken out against the attempt to topple Bashar Assad by force. Asked about this, Dr. El-Hachem ripped apart the "human rights" fraud:

"Do human beings have more rights in Saudi Arabia, in the United Arab Emirates, or in Qatar, than in Syria? We recently saw a young Tunisian get his throat slit. For having had the 'presumptuousness' of converting to Christianity, he was publicly dismembered, in a ritual manner, by a Salafist group which arrogated to itself the right to execute men in the name of Allah.

"What did we see in Libya? We were promised democracy and what do we witness now? The destruction of Libyan unity, on behalf of an ensemble of gangs, clans, armed tribes, and a latent state of war among them, that the dictatorial Qaddafi regime had previously succeeded in containing. It's true: Qaddafi in his time was a horror, but what has replaced him is terror."

81 Comments

81 Comments


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[-] 2 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 13 years ago

The various minorities of Syria - Alawites, Christians, Druse, Kurds face really tough times -- possibly genocide -- if it is true that the western backed rebels are led by or predominantly Islamists who in other contexts might be labeled as al Qaeda by our MSM. The rebels are armed by anti democratic regimes that are oppressing Shia Muslims like Bahrain, where the US 5th Fleet anchors and Saudi Arabia. Anyone who thinks these regimes want a bottom to top democracy in their neighborhood and would give weapons to any group who might bring that situation about is smoking something really seriously strong. These regimes once and for a long time got along famously with Assad and in fact the US used to send "terror suspects" to Assad's Syria for some softening up type conversations that White House lawyers didn't want US staff conducting on US soil.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/05/opinion/syrias-threatened-minorities.html?_r=1

"But the region’s minorities increasingly risk becoming expendable collateral damage in the open-ended civil war in Syria. Many of Syria’s ruling Alawites — and their Kurd, Assyrian, Maronite Christian, Greek Catholic and Orthodox fellow minorities, indeed even the prudent Druze — feel caught in a vicious zero-sum game."

http://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.com/2012/08/05/china-accuses-west-of-blocking-political-solution-in-syria/

China Accuses West of Blocking Political Solution In Syria BEIJING: China on Saturday accused countries that oppose its position on Syria of undermining attempts to find a political solution to the conflict, after voting against a new UN resolution on the crisis.

The UN General Assembly on Friday overwhelmingly passed a resolution slamming the Security Council’s failure to take strong steps to end the fighting, which UN leader Ban Ki-moon said has become a “proxy war”.

Russia and China, which have vetoed three UN Security Council resolutions on Syria, were among high-profile opponents of the resolution which many diplomats said showed frustration at the lack of action on the conflict.

Wang Kejian, a senior official in the Chinese foreign ministry, attacked countries “which have made unfounded criticism of China’s position on the issue of Syria”.

“And these countries, in pursuit of their own geopolitical interests in Syria, are trying to hinder or even undermine the political settlement process.”

“The legitimate requests and aspirations of the Syrian people for change and for safeguarding their own interests deserve respect,” he added.

The assembly’s resolution, which condemned President Bashar al-Assad’s use of “heavy weapons” in the civil war, was passed by 133 votes with 12 countries against and 31 abstaining.

Though the resolution is not legally binding, there was increased attention on the vote after the resignation of UN-Arab League envoy Kofi Annan and the mounting battle for the Syrian city of Aleppo.

  • AFP/de

It seems that the west is willing to at least gamble that certain ethnic and religious minorities in Syria be destroyed. This wouldn't be too cynical for them.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by cmtprkl (1) from New York, NY 13 years ago

i think whats going on is this. Prime Minister of Turkey was a good friend of Assad. They went to holiday together. Then Usa told him to let so called rebels (terrorists) in Turkey and feed them. Everyone giving them guns and satellite phones. We feed thousands of syrian refugees. We gave them credit cards that every month they can spend 400 liras. Now syrian forces fell back from Turkey's border. Leaving that area to PKK (kurdish terrorist group that were killing turkish soldiers every day for the last couple of decades) and they are ruling that area. This is messed up in too many ways that i dont even wanna read anything about it. Everyone knows if there is no war then there is no need for weapon factories. So i ask you. Why do we not raise people to replace these people but choose from bad apple basket? And why we do not have a Howard Beale yet?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 13 years ago

Worthy of further calm consideration & cool cogitation :

  • "West Provoking Civil War in Syria - George Galloway, MP interviews Jonathan Steele, former foreign editor of The Guardian and the author of "Ghosts of Afghanistan", to further talk over the issue." : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32036.htm (2 Videos, 17 & 5 mins).

fiat lux ; fiat pax ; fiat justitia ....

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

By the heading - I am confused - Is the Syrian government that is and has been slaughtering it's own people for some time now being considered outside/foreign aggression? Didn't read the article I must admit as I scanned it and it seemed that there was some pretty silly shit in there.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

That foreign aggression would be the Washington-, London-, and Saudi-supported "opposition":

From the moment the British, Obama, and Sarkozy murdered Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi last October, the Putin leadership of Russia has been on to the British Empire's game: a confrontation to break Russia's and China's defense of national sovereignty, with the threat of launching thermonuclear war. That imperial strategy is continuing, with an almost daily escalation against Syria, with the aim of forcing Russian (and Chinese) capitulation to the Empire's drive for global dictatorship.

Fortunately for humanity, the Russian leadership has drawn the line, and refused to back down. It has received crucial support from the highest levels of the U.S. military, in an ongoing battle against the British-controlled grouping in the Obama Administration, led by Obama himself. But the Empire, desperate to hang onto power under threat of its own bankrupty-disintegration, cannot, by its very nature, give up. Mankind continues to live on the edge of thermonuclear war.

With this reality in mind, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, over the past week, has announced new strategic initiatives against the British drive to overthrow Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, including a proposal for an international conference including all Syria's neighbors, and, most importantly, exposing the fact that it is the Washington-, London-, and Saudi-supported "opposition" that is behind the massacres which are being used to justify a "humanitarian" war of aggression against Syria.

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2012/3924putin_line_v_war.html

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

U R funny - Hey - BTW - is part of your teaching(?) job in China to blog positive PR propaganda for the Chinese gubment?

Sorry just scanned your BS a little further so besides being a propagandist for China you also blog PR propaganda for the Russians ? Seeing as both China and Russia have some personal interests in Syria?

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Yeah, but it doesn't pay very well. Can you help me get a job like yours blogging for the global financial oligarchy?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

I'm afraid you are not a match

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

I am so disappointed!

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Yeah your perception is screwed up all right. Did they Manchurian candidate you or do you do your BS voluntarily?

You constantly post positive propaganda Bullshit about China.

Now for your return accusation - go ahead and show your basis of proof.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

lots of people in China

people can do good things

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Yes there is an amazingly large number of people in China - but lying on behalf of the Chinese government like arturo does is not gonna help those people.

Don't you think it odd that arturo has all of this freedom to use the internet when the Chinese people do not?

Don't you find it funny that we do not hear from the Chinese People?

I mean their government is quite controlling of the internet in their country - so do you not find arturo's internet use freedom a little odd?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

I have very little faith in the honesty of NATO nations

one needs other perspectives

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

One needs the perspectives of the people not their governments.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

I listen to the perspectives of such people all day long. Most Chinese people support their government, and hate foreign attempts at "intervention".

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Truly a mystery, isn't it? Perhaps the dreaded "arturo" is in reality a Chinese Manchurian candidate, deep cover mole!

Or, perhaps he just uses Express VPN:

http://www.expressvpn.org/

I used to be a conspiracy theorist, until people started making up conspiracy theories about me.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

Manchurian candidates are science fantasy at best

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Manchurian candidates are just split personalities. Abusive parents induce split personalities in their children by abusing them. The abused child develops a second personality to protect him or herself from the abuse.

It should be no surprise that unscrupulous individuals or governments would intentionally induce split personalities for fun and profit.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

doesn't work

split personalities are obvious

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

And how do you know this? I've read that people with multiple personalities often don't realize it themselves until they are in their 20s or 30s.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

which is why it would become obvious to others

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

If you have the chance to look, let me know what you think.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

One of America's foremost authorities on MPD or "dissociative disorder", D.C. Hammond, Ph.D., claims that he has treated numerous cases of induced multiple personalities or "Manchurian candidates". Some of his qualifications include:

  • B.S. M.S. Ph.D (Counseling Psychology) from the University of Utah
  • Diplomate in Clinical Hypnosis, the American Board of Psychological Hypnosis
  • Diplomate in Sex Therapy, the American Board of Sexology
  • Clinical Supervisor and Board Examiner, American Board of Sexology
  • Diplomate in Marital and Sex Therapy, American Board of Family Psychology
  • Licensed Psychologist, Licensed Marital Therapist, Licensed Family Therapist, State of Utah
  • Research Associate Professor of Physical Medicine an Rehabilitation, Utah School of Medicine
  • Director and Founder of the Sex and Marital Therapy Clinic, University of Utah.
  • Adjunct Associate Professor of Educational Psychology, University of Utah Abstract
  • Editor, The American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis
  • Advising Editor and Founding Member, Editorial Board, The Ericsonian Monograph
  • Referee, The Journal of Abnormal Psychology
  • 1989 Presidential Award of Merit, American Society of Clinical Hypnosis
  • 1990 Urban Sector Award, American Society of Clinical Hypnosis Current President, American Society of Clinical Hypnosis

His testimony:

http://www.galaksija.com/hammond.htm

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

never seen it

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Looks like the content is blocked at the source.

[-] 0 points by timirninja (263) 13 years ago

thank you. something is wrong with internet this days...

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

In this case, its not the internet that isn't working. It says that its being blocked in China because of copyright violation.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Well hell propaganda scum - just what the hell are you good for use some of your clout with the chairman and get things moving - chop chop. We all know that the Chinese do not care about intellectual property rights - so that can't be the problem.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

I am completely detached from reality eh? Did you even consider doing the slightest amount of research before making such a thoughtless reply?

Consider this:

Shuangliu - population, 920,000. Home to the fifth busiest airport in China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuangliu_County

Jingzhou - population, 5,691,707.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingzhou

Heyuan - population, 207,600. Heyuan city is the major producer of Chinese kiwi fruit dried mushrooms of Jiulian, garlic, Hakka brewed liquor, Xinfengjiang pure water and mineral water, bamboo mats, sweet tangerines, green tea, and pot culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heyuan

Shouguang - population, around one million. Shouguang is flourishing and boasts a modern downtown area and a new six lane highway leading from the Jiqing Expressway (Jinan to Qingdao) into the heart of the city. The local government is currently focused on developing the city's service, industry and technology sectors as well as maintaining Shouguang's reputation as China's "Home of Vegetables" (蔬菜之乡 pinyin: shucai zhixiang).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouguang

Ordos - population, 1,940,653. Ordos is one of the richest regions of China. With a nominal per-capita GDP of US$14,500 in 2008, it is ranked ahead of the capital city of China, Beijing. It is extremely rich in natural resources, having one sixth of the coal reserve in China. The pillars of its economy are textile (wool), coal mining, petrochemicals, electricity generation and production of building materials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordos

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

give it up propaganda boy.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Is that your main complaint about China, that they are building large cities that nobody can live in? Can you provide a list of all such cities?

Others have quite a different opinion on this topic, perhaps they too need to be "slapped" into submission:

China Economist Says Chinese Stimulus Packages Helps Create New Cities

In an interview with China Daily on June 8, Lu Zhongyuan, the vice-president of the Development Research Center of the State Council and a leading economist, underlined the fact that China is now moving to a period of growth propelled by internal demand, including the development of new cities in the central and western parts of the country. Lu noted that China did not choose to become a low-income export country, but was forced into that situation by the multinational companies. "The international division of labor is led by multinational companies in developed countries. Only if its pattern changes can we solve the problem of China exporting a lot," Lu said.

Lu also stressed the fact that the pace of urbanization, which will help to boost domestic consumption, is continuing at a rapid pace, but now is being spread to areas outside the traditional coastal "hothouses." Many of the migrant workers, who will not have jobs anymore in the traditional coastal low-wage export industries, will find work in the growing cities closer to their homes, Lu said. Much of the Chinese stimulus package has gone to transportation, particularly to the building of railroads, which will bring these new urban areas into the mainstream of the Chinese economy.

This new urbanization was also noted in an article in a Financial Times article on January 19 by James Kynge, FT's former Beijing bureau chief, who has just been appointed to a new FT China Confidential newsletter. The article notes that in the first 10 months of 2009, "lower-tier cities" accounted for a sharply growing portion of total investment. FT profiled eight cities which were becoming major hubs in this transition.

Shuangliu, a city near Chengdu in southwest China, has become a leader in the commercialization of agriculture. Jingzhou on the Yangtze river is an emerging transport hub. Heyuan, far upstream on the Pearl river in Guangdong province, is benefiting from some of the wealth accumulated from the coastal region. Shouguang in Shandong province is a center for high-grade vegetable production. In Inner Mongolia, China is building an entirely new city, Ordos, which is located near a village that provided workers for a small coal mine in the area. This shift is totally in line with what Lyndon LaRouche has been telling Chinese contacts for years: With the growing population of China, China must simply build new cities.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Wow are you totally detached from reality (?) or what? Those cities are not inhabited - the citizens who built them - probably the highest paid workers besides those building the hydroelectric dams - can not afford to live in those cities. The chairman must love you long time - sellout.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

I keep showing you otherwise, but you cannot accept it, because by definition, only you know the truth. Everybody who disagrees with you is of course a "bastard" whom you must "slap" down into submission. Free speech, of course, cannot be permitted to one such as me. I have to "shut the fuck up" or get out.

You are beginning to show all the signs of a dictator, defining someone who disagrees with you as evil, denying them the right to express an opinion which contradicts yours, and feeling the necessity to beat them into submission.

Considering how you hate people who disagree with you, you most certainly would hate the Chinese people, all one billion and a half of them, since they are the ones with whom I have daily contact and who have provided me with my opinions about China.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 13 years ago

You want to help china, start thinking about what I've said to you. Some things I have pointed out time and again but will point out to you now.

  1. Globalization will eventually lead to a leveling of wages on a global scale. The sooner it happens, the sooner the birthing pains will subside.

  2. If you don't set a high bar, the average will be low so you need a bar that works for the people and by upping the wages in the US, you set the high end of the average.

  3. Implementing your preferred policies must also reach a global scale and that takes much longer than leaning on politicians around the world until they raise wages. All developed nations go thrue this process we just need to push to speed it up.

Globalization is unavoidable even if we tried. We need to asses why it causes economic pain and deal with what we can as soon as we can. We need to talk with people who fear globalization and explain to them why it hurts and what needs to be done so they understand that outsourcing can lead to economic prosperity in other countries, leaving them able to purchase goods made in the US. That outsourcing will slow as the wage gap closes and it stops making overnight millionaires to hire kids in dungeon factories. If you make it complicated or fail to see what results can be had now such as wages, if you are less than ultra clear about an issue so damn big, you will get nothing done and the inevitable will continue coming at a snail's pace.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Yeah yeah yeah - and you write such glowing things about China and it's Gubment - but you fail to address reality - they are building mega cities that none of the population can afford to live in - not even those employed to build them. They sit empty out of reach but for the most affluent and there are not many of those now are there. The resources and revenue going into the building of those mega ghost cities could do a lot to improve the lives of the common Chinese individual.

So try again to deny your propaganda.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Nice try propaganda arty. But it doesn't wash.

  • Of course not, because anyone who disagrees with you must by definition be promoting propaganda. You only favor free speech if it agrees with you.
[-] 1 points by kaiserw (211) 13 years ago

China to Boost the Global Economy? Nope it’s also a Total Ponzi

http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2012/08/07/china-to-boost-the-global-economy-nope-its-also-a-total-ponzi/

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Sorry fail - I only slap bastards like you who are sellouts to humanity. Show me otherwise or Shut the fuck-up Sellout.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

I don't see you as campaigning for the US or the people of the world. Your hate-China rants are in favor of global finance, the ones who seek to benefit from a conflict between China and the US, the old divide and conquer strategy.

I'm sure you would like to see me booted from this forum, because you worship yourself, and see anybody who challenges your beliefs as the ultimate evil.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Nice try propaganda arty. But it doesn't wash.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Nice try propaganda arty. But it doesn't wash.

[-] 0 points by timirninja (263) 13 years ago

Roots Manuva & Left Field-Dusted (Hi-Def) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnIMjNWyxLM&feature=player_embedded

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Interesting - thanks for the link - Wish it had the had the lyrics attached.

Roots Manuva & Left Field-Dusted (Hi-Def) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnIMjNWyxLM&feature=player_embedded

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Have you ever spoken to a Chinese person from China? You say you are for the Chinese people but against their government, but most Chinese people are for their government.

To give you an example, I have one student, high school age from a farming village in the province of Hubei. His grandparents were dirt poor "farmers", people whom we would historically refer to as peasants.

His father is some kind of skilled tradesman, repairs industrial furnaces. He makes enough money to send his kid to English lessons seven days a week for two hours a day at $50 US an hour, for about a month this summer.

The Chinese government has brought about 100 million people out of the deepest poverty, in this way, over the last thirty years, according to the world bank.

Its because of this kind of progress that most Chinese people like their government. And its because of my experience with these kinds of people that I have the opinions which I have, not because of what the Chinese government says.

However, what the Chinese people and the Chinese government say, are pretty much the same thing. The people complain about some minor things, but mostly they are happy with their government.

[-] 1 points by kaiserw (211) 13 years ago

Yea, China never murders civilians.... <rolls eyes>

Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
    Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
    Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
    Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
    Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
    Labor Camps: 20M
    Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
    TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)
    Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward, 1959-61:
        Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984): 30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
        Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988): 19.5M deaths
        Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal deaths and reduced births"
        Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths
Brzezinski:
    Forcible collectivization: 27 million peasants
    Cultural Revolution: 1-2 million
    TOTAL: 29 million deaths under Mao
Daniel Chirot:
    Land reform, 1949-56
        According to Zhou Enlai: 830,000
        According to Mao Zedong: 2-3M
    Great Leap Forward: 20-40 million deaths.
    Cultural Revolution: 1-20 million
Jung Chang, Mao: the Unknown Story (2005)
    Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51: 3M by execution, mob or suicide
    Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
    Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
    Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
    Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
    TOTAL under Mao: 70M
Dictionary of 20C World History: around a half million died in Cultural Rev.
Eckhardt:
    Govt executes landlords (1950-51): 1,000,000
    Cultural Revolution (1967-68): 50,000
Gilbert:
    1958-61 Famine: 30 million deaths.
Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979):
    They estimate the body count under Mao to be 38,000,000 to 67,000,000.
    Cited by G & P:
        Walker Report (see below): 44.3M to 63.8M deaths.
        The Government Information Office of Taiwan (18 Sept. 1970): 37M deaths in the PRC.
        A Radio Moscow report (7 Apr. 1969): 26.4M people had been exterminated in China.
        (NOTE: Obviously the Soviets and Taiwanese would, as enemies, be strongly motivated to exaggerate.)
Guinness Book of World Records:
    Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:
        On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
        In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
        The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000.
Harff and Gurr:
    KMT cadre, rich peasants, landlords (1950-51): 800,000-3,000,000
    Cultural Revolution (1966-75): 400,000-850,000
John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen: 27M death toll, incl. 2M in Cultural Revolution
Paul Johnson doesn't give an overall total, but he gives estimates for the principle individual mass dyings of the Mao years:
    Land reform, first years of PRC: at least 2 million people perished.
    Great Leap Forward: "how many millions died ... is a matter of conjecture."
    Cultural Revolution: 400,000, calling the 3 Feb. 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse, "The most widely respected figure".
Meisner, Maurice, Mao's China and After (1977, 1999), doesn't give an overall total either, but he does give estimates for the three principle mass dyings of the Mao years:
    Terror against the counterrevolutionaries: 2 million people executed during the first three years of the PRC.
    Great Leap Forward: 15-30 million famine-related deaths.
    Cultural Revolution: 400,000, citing a 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse.
R. J. Rummel:
    Estimate:
        Democide: 34,361,000 (1949-75)
            The principle episodes being...
                All movements (1949-58): 11,813,000
                    incl. Land Reform (1949-53): 4,500,000
                Cult. Rev. (1964-75): 1,613,000
                Forced Labor (1949-75): 15,000,000
                Great Leap Forward (1959-63): 5,680,000 democides
        War: 3,399,000
        Famine: 34,500,000
            Great Leap Forward: 27M famine deaths
        TOTAL: 72,260,000
    Cited in Rummel:
        Li, Cheng-Chung (Republic of China, 1979): 78.86M direct/indirect deaths.
        World Anti-Communist League, True Facts of Maoist Tyranny (1971): 64.5M
        Glaser & Possony: 38 to 67M (see above)
        Walker Report, 1971 (see below): 31.75M to 58.5M casualties of Communism (excluding Korean War).
        Current Death Toll of International Communism (1979): 39.9M
        Stephen R. Shalom (1984), Center for Asian Studies, Deaths in China Due To Communism: 3M to 4M death toll, excluding famine.
Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971, report to the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary) "Casualties to Communism" (deaths):
    1st Civil War (1927-36): .25-.5M
    Fighting during Sino-Japanese War (1937-45): 50,000
    2nd Civil War (1945-49): 1.25M
    Land Reform prior to Liberation: 0.5-1.0M
    Political liquidation campaigns: 15-30M
    Korean War: 0.5-1.234M
    Great Leap Forward: 1-2M
    Struggle with minorities: 0.5-1.0M
    Cultural Revolution: .25-.5M
    Deaths in labor camps: 15-25M
    TOTAL: 34.3M to 63.784M
    TOTAL FOR PRC: 32M to 59.5M
July 17, 1994, Washington Post (Great Leap Forward 1959-61)
    Shanghai University journal, Society: > 40 million
    Cong Jin: 40 million
    Chen Yizi: 43 million in the famine. 80 million total as a result of Mao's policies.
Weekly Standard, 29 Sept. 1997, "The Laogai Archipelago" by D. Aikman:
    Between 1949 and 1997, 50M prisoners passed through the labor camps, and 15,000,000 died (citing Harry Wu)
WHPSI: 1,633,319 political executions and 25,961 deaths from political violence, 1948-77. TOTAL: 1,659,280
Analysis: If we line up the 14 sources which claim to be complete, the median falls in the 45.75 to 52.5 million range, so you probably can't go wrong picking a final number from this neighborhood. Depending on how you want to count some of the incomplete estimates (such as Becker and Meisner) and whether to count a source twice (or thrice, as with Walker) if it's referenced by two different authorities, you can slide the median up and down the scale by many millions. Keep in mind, however, that official Chinese records are hidden from scrutiny, so most of these numbers are pure guesses. It's pointless to get attached to any one of them, because the real number could easily be half or twice any number here.
Perhaps a better way of estimating would be to add up the individual components. The medians here are:
    Purges, etc. during the first few years: 2M (10 estimates)
    Great Leap Forward: 31-33M (14 estimates)
    Cultural Revolution: 1M (13 estimates)
    Ethnic Minorities, primarily Tibetans: 750-900T (8 estimates, see below)
    Labor Camps: 20M (5 estimates)
    This produces a total of some 54,750,000 to 56,900,000 deaths. The weak link in this calculation is in the Labor Camp numbers for which we only have 5 estimates.
Notice that many early body counts (such as Walker) completely miss the famine during the Great Leap Forward, which was largely unknown in the west until around 1980. There are two contradictory ways to assess those early estimates which ignore the famine:
    "If these are the numbers that they came up with without the famine, imagine how high the true number will be once you add the famine deaths."
    "Can we trust any of these numbers? After all, if they missed such a huge famine, they can't have known very much about what was going on inside China."
... so this line of reasoning will get us nowhere. In fact, the median of the 7 estimate that predate 1980 is 45.7M, which is almost the same as the median of the 7 estimates that post-date 1980 -- 58M. (At this scale, a 12M difference counts as "almost the same".)

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Not in your case - you are so obvious.

-My point exactly, you are as well.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Show me how I have been propagandizing for a government.

If you accuse me of campaigning for the people of the USA and of the world I will have to gladly and proudly say yes.

But go ahead and show me where I have been putting out pro-gubment BS.

OH - BTW - If I could? You would be booted off of this forum so fast it would make a sonic-boom.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

I suppose it takes one to know one.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Not in your case - you are so obvious.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

So harsh! You must really buy into the mainstream media propaganda.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

Nope I just recognize a sellout when I see one - in this instance - you.

[-] -1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

give it up propaganda boy.

  • If I were you, I'd stick to name calling and avoid the facts as well.
[-] -1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

And you consistently post your hate China rants.

The US has been colonized by big corporations and their owners. They want to colonize the rest of the world, and you're working for them. OWS is supposed to be like the original American revolution - anti-imperialist.

Here is some of that valued information you were asking for:

It is widely accepted around the world that most of the “Syrian rebels” are not Syrians at all. They are a contingent of Sunni terrorists, some of whom belong to the Muslim Brotherhood, while others come from a mish-mash of terrorist groups, spawned and nurtured since 1979, when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan.

These terrorists, who have been bunched loosely under the banner of al-Qaeda, are funded by Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar, and a few other nations, and are being used by Britain and the United States. The groups’ primary objective is to establish a Wahhabi extremist variety of Sunni Islamic rule, even an Islamic Caliphate, throughout the Islamic world, from northern Africa to Russia’s northern Caucasus.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

I have no doubt that these insurgents are from the area and are being used by some or all of those governments as you state. But this does not change the fact that Assad has been Butchering his own people - he has not been fighting these insurgents until recently and yes those insurgents have their own agenda which they are pursuing - as should have been expected by whoever is supporting their actions in Syria. All the more reason to see Assad get booted as soon as possible so that the other violence being added-in on top of his can be ended as well.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Apparently, the joint Chiefs of Staff, among others, oppose this war because they believe it would trigger a much wider war:

"It is only due to the resistance by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, backed up by the ranks of retired high-level military officers, diplomats, and intelligence officials, that keeps the Obama Administration from launching that world war—starting with an outlaw attack on Syria or Iran, without the approval of the UN Security Council or of the U.S. Congress. This is a danger that will not go away—regardless of concessions by the governments of Syria and Iran—unless it is unequivocally defeated by removing Obama from office, and cancelling all efforts to replace the UN Charter with atrocities like the R2P sham."

[-] -2 points by richardkentgates (3269) 13 years ago

Now I see why. You have a little Che thing going on. You don't really give a damn about the US, your deal is the corporate influence in other countries and you feel Occupy is a ticket for that. I can dig it because it's a common cause approach. I hate it because you use words like Imperialism against the US while defending china, ironic.

America is who feeds the majority of staving people around the globe and brought technology that has improve the living standards of the world. You can hate the 1%, I do. But don't blanket blame an entire country, that's no better than good ol bigotry.

Now I also understand why you could give a rats ass about wages.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

I do give a damn about the US, I don't like to see it colonized by global corporations.

You appear to be a very confused person, putting words in my mouth that I have no intention of saying. For example about wages. Of course I care about wages, I just think that increasing productivity is the best way to raise them.

[-] -2 points by richardkentgates (3269) 13 years ago

The US is now at record productivity per individual. This is not disputable. This contradicts your point.

I tend to take interest in persons that make false statement yet hold enough intellect to know they are wrong, yet continue to push what they know to be a false point or narrative. The reason I take interest is to discover the motives behind pushing bullshit to make a point.

The motives help me understand all the angles that make up or tag along with Occupy. I need this info when speaking to dissenters of Occupy at work, at the store, everywhere.

You may like the US but never the less, you have a Che-like perception of the issues, whether you see it or not. This type of politics reaches all the way back to the cane fields of south America. True enough, the things that motivated Che still exist today throughout the world. But also like Che, I think you hold even the American people to task for this just as Che did, whether you admit it or not.

You are placing the cart before the horse. Economic development is strategic management of economic growth to maximize profits and effective use of profits. You must begin with the growth. You continue to insist on developing a no-growth situation and that is somehow going to create growth, like a new store manager will reverse the lack of demand for your product. It's nonsense. You mam, are the one who is confused.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Let me clarify a few issues, where I believe you have gone astray.

You say, for example, that US productivity is at a record high per individual, but I suppose that would depend on how you define productivity. For me, productivity is the capacity to produce more than one consumes, but sadly the US is not producing much of anything these days.

For productivity to really be at an all time high, we would have to go back to producing what we consume once again, which is the approach that I propose, rather than a revolution, which the hypothetical "Che" persona which you project on me might prefer.

You see, I'm not a revolutionary at all, or at least not in the Che sense, but perhaps in the sense of the original American revolution, you could consider me a revolutionary. As I've said, I believe our country has been "colonized" by globalist corporations, and that we do need to "revolt" in a way against that form of imperialism.

But since the war that has been waged against us has not been physically violent, we don't have to concern ourselves with responding in that way, but rather, it has been an "information war" in which information has been used against us to make us believe that black is white and white is black, in a manner of speaking.

So we need to wage an information war as well, and that is what I try to do with the things that I say, which I believe you are unfortunately misinterpreting.

I think you are mistaken to say that the purpose of economic development is to maximize profit, for what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?

I believe that the purpose of development is more intrinsic, its done for its own sake. That is, cities are nicer when they have electricity, running water and public transportation, and that people are nicer when they are well educated and healthy.

If you are equating "growth" with "profit" I think you are quite off the mark. Many people have made handsome profits from their investments in Wall Street, but is our country growing? I don't think so.

[-] -2 points by richardkentgates (3269) 13 years ago

Very eloquent use of line blurring and ideological rhetoric to escape fact based debating on the issue.

[-] 0 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

You don't have the slightest interest in an honest conversation.

[-] -3 points by richardkentgates (3269) 13 years ago

I have no interest in trying to debate issues that have hard facts with someone who then blurs the line and wastes my time to continually try bringing them back down to the facts of the issues only to have them reply with blurring the line again and again. You are the one not interested in honest debate.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Well of course you couldn't possibly be mistaken about anything, right? Everything you know is hard facts and absolute truths. So if anyone disagrees with you, then something must be wrong with them. By definition, anyone who disagrees with you must a deceiver.

[-] -1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 13 years ago

So we have graduated to credibility. Well then lets just rush to the finish line so you don't have to keep switching up tired tactic. I'm wrong, you're right. I wish you well in your endeavors.

[-] -1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

Well of course I have to resort to tired tactics, only you can discuss things honestly.

[-] 0 points by timirninja (263) 13 years ago

and as we all heard Ghadaffy bombs their own people.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

that doesn't give us the right to bomb Libya

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[-] 0 points by timirninja (263) 13 years ago

i dont know. i want to see what he say about Syria. give us proper link to the video =)

[-] 0 points by Umong (0) 13 years ago

BULLSHIT !!!!

you really should expand your sources of knowledge beyond the MSM lies and propaganda

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

As I commented to arturo:

I have no doubt that these insurgents are from the area and are being used by some or all of those governments as you state. But this does not change the fact that Assad has been Butchering his own people - he has not been fighting these insurgents until recently and yes those insurgents have their own agenda which they are pursuing - as should have been expected by whoever is supporting their actions in Syria. All the more reason to see Assad get booted as soon as possible so that the other violence being added-in on top of his can be ended as well.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

so the insurgents as not against Assad butchery?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

I believe that whoever sent them sent them for the purpose of confronting Assad's Troops and I believe that they have been doing some of that - But I also believe that they have their own agenda that they are following.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

stopping butchery can be an agenda

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

I believe that it is a worthy cause - I do not believe however that many if any governments see it that way.

It is part of my agenda in pushing for clean green Power and Fuel technology implementation. End the strife over fossil fuel resources. Make the world energy independent. Export peace ( green technology ) do not import reasons for conflict ( fossil fuel ).

[-] 0 points by timirninja (263) 13 years ago

farmers want peace. they believe in Allah. they have seen American movies, and now they deluded and frustrated. in one hand they want to have democracy, in other hand they want to hold sovereignty. when the rebel comes they scream: Hoy Hoy Hoy kill Assad!!! When security forces comes they scream: Kill Dem Rebels! - Why? like i said, they want peace, they dont need no trouble.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 13 years ago

I believe that whoever sent them sent them for the purpose of confronting Assad's Troops and I believe that they have been doing some of that - But I also believe that they have their own agenda that they are following.

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[-] 3 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 13 years ago

It wouldn't be the first time that a fiction was employed to induce a regime change.

[-] 1 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 13 years ago

Have you had a nice sleep? Wakey, wakey!

[-] -2 points by richardkentgates (3269) 13 years ago

A country must find it's own path if it is to truly be sovereign. We spent 50 years with our hand in everyone's biz and all it did was force us to war in order to retain control or Anti-Americanism run rampant and leading to attacks on the US and US alies. Let them sort it out, let them be free.